The Struggle Of A High School Objectivist

[studentofobjectivism]

Hi, my name is Tim from RI. I go to an urban high school where all my ideas are rejected as "irrational and illogical". I feel at lost with the world sometimes and feel that the only places I can go to find self-assurance that the world is not totally evil is in Ayn Rand's and other Objectivist's books. Here is an example I experienced today:

In an essay I did for English class, I wrote on the evils of socialism. In this essay I explained how there is no such entity as society since society is only a group of individuals - also how socialism supports a desire for the unearned. I of course elaborated on these topics. Comments recieved included:

"C'mon!"

(In reference to the no society comment) "Tim - this is patently untrue. There is no inherent contradiction [between society and the individual]. There might be conflicts but individual/society are not mutually exclusive."

"Tim - "...you can no longer be logical and rational in your own thinking."

What do you think?

[softwareNerd]

Welcome to the forum, Tim. High school is a great time to learn about Ayn Rand. (The earlier. the better.) How did you learn about her books? What books have you read?

[studentofobjectivism]

Welcome to the forum, Tim. High school is a great time to learn about Ayn Rand. (The earlier. the better.) How did you learn about her books? What books have you read?

I learned about Ayn Rand through fantasy author Terry Goodkind. I thought the ideas in his books intriguing. I looked at his website and found out his philosophy was based on that of Ayn Rand. I had heard of her before but didn't know what she was. I have read The Virtue of Selfishness, We the Living, The Romantic Manifesto, and am currently reading The Fountainhead.

What troubles me is that I am not supposed to like Ayn Rand as some of the teachers I admire say. She is 'cultish'. When I speak up in class, my classmates don't understand why I don't believe in God and the teacher can't seem to get past how one shouldn't live for the sake of another.

I have come to the point where I think that Objectivism may be unpractical. For the past weeks, this has been extremely depressing for me. I say to myself, if I don't believe in Objectivism what is there to believe?

[EC]

Where these comments made by your teacher? If so I would report them to his superior, possibly a principal or administrator. Then I would request to immediately be able to change to a class with a more rational "teacher" who would not stifle my intellectual development and self-esteem.

[EC]

I have come to the point where I think that Objectivism may be unpractical. For the past weeks, this has been extremely depressing for me. I say to myself, if I don't believe in Objectivism what is there to believe?

"Believe" in reason. Are you thinking Objectivism is "unpractical" because others around you seem to be irrational? Ask yourself if you think capitalism is unpractical while taking into account that the United States is the richest most prosperous country in the world because it is the most capitalist country that has ever existed. Capitalism is not Objectivism, but Objectivism fully justifies capitalism and reason, so does the possible conclusion "Objectivism may be unpractical" in any way follow from the above facts of reality?

Can you transfer out of that school? Possibly using vouchers to attend a private school of some sort that wouldn't try to destroy your rationality?

[studentofobjectivism]

Where these comments made by your teacher? If so I would report them to his superior, possibly a principal or administrator. Then I would request to immediately be able to change to a class with a more rational "teacher" who would not stifle my intellectual development and self-esteem.

This is not possible. I have already asked before. I live in a lower class city. At the high school I go to, the teacher you have is the teacher you have, there is no money for 'extra teachers'. It's 30-40 kids to a room with kids standing up and such.

I have decided to educate myself by my own efforts however. I decided to teach myself what my school can not - how to live a proper life. I have bought this computer and other materials to help me live by working full time (30 hours per week) and going to school full time. It's not easy but it's doable.

My goal is to become a professional musician. The teachers also tell me that, 'this will never come true', 'you have good technical skills but this is not a plausible goal - choose something rational instead', among other comments. The comments have shaken me mentally to the point where I think that I should quit high school to achieve what no one thinks I can.

This is the truth. Does it now surprise you that a teacher would make comments like that?

Tim

Edited April 2, 2005 by studentofobjectivism

[softwareNerd]

My own high-school experience was many decades and cultures from yours. So, I'm not going to give you very specific advice. [i can say from my own high-school that complaining about a teacher would probably not have worked. I think it may have been harmful to my interests.] I'll keep my comments more general.

I'd like to explore your thoughts about Objectivism's practicality.

For starters, let me ask you about the area of logic. You have not mentioned reading "Introduction to Objectovist Epistemology". Still, even without that background, you probably understand that one thing Objectivism advocates is reason/rationality.

So, considering this one aspect (for starters) do you think that reason/rationality is practical?

[studentofobjectivism]

So, considering this one aspect (for starters) do you think that reason/rationality is practical?

I do think that rationality is practical. I think I have been tested to the breaking point however. With EVERYONE around me - my friends, family, teachers, etc. - telling me that reason is not possible, that one must look to a higher power. It's expected that I would question my own beliefs on Reason, is it not?

[softwareNerd]

It's expected that I would question my own beliefs on Reason, is it not?

It is not shocker . And please don't think I'm criticising you in this regard. I am not.

EVERYONE around me - my friends, family, teachers, etc. - telling me that reason is not possible, that one must look to a higher power.

Do they all really think that reason is contradictory to religion? I've found that the best of religious people are the ones who try very hard to be rational in most spheres of life. They "compartmentalize" their religious beliefs (in a "lock box") and try to be rational in other things.

Anyone who believes in God is being irrational. That is true. Yet, many who believe in God (not all, not most, but many) are pretty rational.

I think I have been tested to the breaking point however.

You've spoken of two issues on which you clash with others: one was "the individual versus society", the second was "God".

I'd like to ask: what ideas do you find yourself clashing over the most? with whom do you find yourself clashing most -- friends, family, teachers? why are you clashing -- I know your ideas are radically different, but are they asking your opinion, are you in a situation where your honest opinion is called for, are you volunteering an unsolicited opinion?

I'm trying to paint as detailed a picture as I can, so that any advice you get will be more focussed and practical.

BTW: What instrument do you play?

[softwareNerd]

I found some previous threads that might be of some interest here, here, and here.

[non-contradictor]

Hi, my name is Tim from RI. I go to an urban high school where all my ideas are rejected as "irrational and illogical". I feel at lost with the world sometimes and feel that the only places I can go to find self-assurance that the world is not totally evil is in Ayn Rand's and other Objectivist's books.

First off, welcome to the forum Tim. I am also in high school.

In an essay I did for English class, I wrote on the evils of socialism. In this essay I explained how there is no such entity as society since society is only a group of individuals - also how socialism supports a desire for the unearned. I of course elaborated on these topics. Comments recieved included:

...

(In reference to the no society comment) "Tim - this is patently untrue. There is no inherent contradiction [between society and the individual]. There might be conflicts but individual/society are not mutually exclusive."

"Tim - "...you can no longer be logical and rational in your own thinking."

What do you think?

My first reaction would be to say that your teacher has not supported any of his statements. However, I doubt pointing this out to him/her would do much to improve the situation. The second comment I do not understand. Is the teacher saying that you are incapable of being rational? This is an extraordinary accusation, and one needing some evidence. Now for how to deal with this...

First off, did these comments have a significant negative impact on your grade? In my experience, teachers do not generally take off for ideas they do not agree with, even if they choose to comment on them. Is this the case? If so, then I would advise you to ignore the comments. They are ridiculous and unsupported and therefore do not deserve to be acknowledged.

Next, how did you choose the topic for this essay? Since you know that this teacher is going to take issue with a lot of what you have to say you could try to choose a topic that is not as likely to push their buttons. Write on something that is commonly an issue such as the Terri Schiavo case. That way, you still add an Objectivist perspective, but you don't seem like you're coming out of nowhere. However, if you're set on choosing the blatantly Objectivist topics, then I would suggest getting yourself a copy of the Ayn Rand Lexicon, and shooting your essays full of quotes. If what your teacher wants is evidence, then give it to them. On the subject of choosing essay topics, I suggest this thread: http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.php?showtopic=2934

As for Objectivism being practical, it depends on what you want to accomplish. If your goal is happiness, then Objectivism is immensely practical. It may not be all that practical for getting an A on an English paper in a class run by a pseudo-socialist, but grades given by someone you don't respect are far less essential to your happiness than your integrity. (or they should be) What would make you happier: getting a A on a paper about how wonderful socialism is even though you don't believe it and don't respect the teacher, or getting an F on a paper about the power of the individual and knowing that you are right no matter what your teacher says? If your choice is the latter, you need not worry about the practicality of Objectivism.

[EC]

I still don't understand why everyone keeps saying that speaking up to the teacher or to an admin will do nothing, when I was in H.S. and I noticed the same kind of nonsense going on I immediately removed myself from the school, and later reinrolled at an alternative H.S. meant for adults. The school was such that the teachers essentially did NOT teach, and you could simply learn at your own pace by reading through sections in the text and taking eight tests at your own pace, and voila you got your 1/2 a credit for the class. At this rate there were many classes I went through inside of a week or in some cases a day or two. This is what I recommend any rational high schooler also do so that they aren't unnecassarily exposing themselves to complete nonsense and wasting their time in a regular school. I received a regular H.S. diploma in a very short time.

[studentofobjectivism]

I still don't understand why everyone keeps saying that speaking up to the teacher or to an admin will do nothing, when I was in H.S. and I noticed the same kind of nonsense going on I immediately removed myself from the school, and later reinrolled at an alternative H.S. meant for adults. The school was such that the teachers essentially did NOT teach, and you could simply learn at your own pace by reading through sections in the text and taking eight tests at your own pace, and voila you got your 1/2 a credit for the class. At this rate there were many classes I went through inside of a week or in some cases a day or two. This is what I recommend any rational high schooler also do so that they aren't unnecassarily exposing themselves to complete nonsense and wasting their time in a regular school. I received a regular H.S. diploma in a very short time.

I don't understand how this is possible? I have never heard of such a school. It's almost too late now, I've been in the school for almost 2 years (10th Grade). It's too late to switch.

[Richard Roark]

I have come to the point where I think that Objectivism may be unpractical. For the past weeks, this has been extremely depressing for me. I say to myself, if I don't believe in Objectivism what is there to believe?

That is because they are trying to break you, don't let them do this to you. You remember how Dena broke Richard in Wizard's First Rule? It was through physical torture and mental torture taht she was able to break Ricahard. But What did Richard Do to save himself? You to must view your instance with everybody as them trying to break your spirit for life and for wanting to live your own life. Don't worry about what other's are saying about you and what they think, what matters is what you think and where you want your life to go. Don't let anybody else claim a right to your life.

Your Life is yours Alone, Rise up and Live it.

[studentofobjectivism]

That is because they are trying to break you, don't let them do this to you. You remember how Dena broke Richard in Wizard's First Rule? It was through physical torture and mental torture taht she was able to break Ricahard. But What did Richard Do to save himself? You to must view your instance with everybody as them trying to break your spirit for life and for wanting to live your own life. Don't worry about what other's are saying about you and what they think, what matters is what you think and where you want your life to go. Don't let anybody else claim a right to your life.

Your Life is yours Alone, Rise up and Live it.

Thank you for your comment, I think you are right. Richard had a little "box" in his mind which he kept private from Denna so she wouldn't get to it, right?

I told one of my teachers to read WFR and he did since he's into fantasy. After he read it I asked him what he thought of the philosophical ideas in the book. He replied:

"Oh, you can't take this book seriously, it's just fantasy!"

So there you go.

[Richard Roark]

Have you ever actually written to Terry Goodkind?

[EC]

I don't understand how this is possible? I have never heard of such a school. It's almost too late now, I've been in the school for almost 2 years (10th Grade). It's too late to switch.

Nonsense, I did it in 11th grade. At the begining of my junior year my family moved from Michigan where at that time you had to have about 16 credits to graduate (I had about 12) to Florida where you needed like 30, so I still had a long way to go there. With in a few days or weeks, I forget which, I quickly realized that their school system wasn't for me and I was going to be stuck in it a long time. So, I went and talked to an adminastrator and said I would no longer be attending his school and asked what my options were. He suggested the alternative school. I took checked out enrolled and ended up graduating six-months ahead of my class. I had to take so many classes to graduate in FL, that I ran out of classes at the H.S. and had to dual-enroll at the community college to make up the difference which slowed me down because college is as illogically structured time-wise as most high schools.

In other words, though there is always options, just say to yourself that the normal rules don't apply to you, and then if you act on that, then to a large extent they won't, if they are illogical.

[dondigitalia]

As for Objectivism being practical, it depends on what you want to accomplish. If your goal is happiness, then Objectivism is immensely practical. It may not be all that practical for getting an A on an English paper in a class run by a pseudo-socialist, but grades given by someone you don't respect are far less essential to your happiness than your integrity. (or they should be) What would make you happier: getting a A on a paper about how wonderful socialism is even though you don't believe it and don't respect the teacher, or getting an F on a paper about the power of the individual and knowing that you are right no matter what your teacher says? If your choice is the latter, you need not worry about the practicality of Objectivism.

I partly disagree here. A proper application of Objectivism is always practical. There are more options available to Tim than getting an A on a pro-socialism paper and an F on a pro-Objectivist one. In order to decide your proper course of action, you need to consider all the facts available to you. It is in your self-interest to get an A if going to a good college is your goal. It is also in your self-interest to write a paper without compromising your integrity. Why write a paper that endorses either philosophy explicitly. I like the idea of analyzing a current even that appears controversial but really isn't - like the Schiavo case, as someone mentioned earlier. This case has caused a tremendous uproar, and everyone seems to have an opinion - it's something your teacher expects you to take a stand on. But, by the same token, because people are so divided, holding an opinion that conflicts with your teachers isn't as "controversial," because many, many people will agree with both of you. It's kind of using your teacher's social subjectvism in your favor. He seems to place value in mass-agreement (most socialists do; correct me if I'm wrong). I would wager he'd find a disagreement on highly controversial issues such as these far more acceptable than the ones where "everybody knows" such-and-such.

Ask yourself this: What value did you hope to gain by turning in an explicitly pro-Objectivist paper? Did you hope to convince the teacher that Objectivism is a correct philosophy, or were you trying to get a good grade? Was this really a good way to go about either, or whatever value it was you were trying to gain?

I'll give you some advice. Don't preach Objectivism to people who haven't asked to hear about Objectivism. Do let the people you value know that you are learning about a philosophy that is just about the best thing you've ever heard, and answer their questions when and if they ask them. But I would advise against trying to "convert" everyone who crosses your path. You are probably feeling something along the lines of: "There really is someone who understands! How wonderful it is that Ayn Rand was able to put into words everything I've always felt, but couldn't identify!" Not everyone feels this way; most do not. There is no value to be gained from "preaching" to those who aren't interested and refuse to listen. You have already observed some of the negative effects this approach can have. Think of all the values you are missing out on - a good grade from your teacher, friendships with peers who surely have some value to offer, but are put off by what they view as dogmatic ramblings that go against what "everybody knows."

As far as going to an administrator is concerned, pick your battles wisely. Again, what value is to be gained? From all the information you've given, it doesn't appear there is any (although, only you can say for sure). Once, I had a Spanish teacher who would argue with me in class and berate me in front of other students for being atheist. I said to her, in front of the whole class: "I am in this class to learn a language, not a religion. I suggest you stop preaching to me immediately, or I'll get my father involved. He is atheist, and very hard to deal with. I seriously doubt the Principal, your boss, will appreciate the extreme inconvenience of dealing with him when he's in a temper, and this would infuriate him." The result was that she stopped, my classmates chuckled under their breath and I gained the respect of my peers and myself. Now, I am absolutely not suggesting you take a similar approach. It could have catastrophic effects depending on the circumstances, and in hindsight, I can't believe I took such a risk.

The bottom line is that all of your actions (in school, and elsewhere) should be guided by the answer to the following question: What value am I trying to gain and/or keep, and which action(s) will be most successful in doing it?

Keep studying Objectivism, keep pursuing your values, and don't give too much attention to the irrational - the irrational has nothing to offer you.

[dondigitalia]

[The whole thing about alternative schools.]

I have a question. Where I went to school, "alternative schools" were where they sent the delinquents. Are these the same kind of schools you are talking about? Not all of the students who attended them here were delinquents, but they were the vast majority. This is something that needs to be taken into consideration before making a decision to switch. What are the other students like? Are these really the kind of people you want to surround yourself with all day?

[non-contradictor]

I partly disagree here. A proper application of Objectivism is always practical...

You are right. What I was trying to get at was that if your goal is happiness, then Objectivism is always practical. It's just that telling someone you're an Objectivist may not always be in your self-interest. (unless they ask, of course)

edited to remove excessive quoting

Edited April 2, 2005 by non-contradictor

[non-contradictor]

I have a question. Where I went to school, "alternative schools" were where they sent the delinquents. Are these the same kind of schools you are talking about? Not all of the students who attended them here were delinquents, but they were the vast majority. This is something that needs to be taken into consideration before making a decision to switch. What are the other students like? Are these really the kind of people you want to surround yourself with all day?

There are other types of alternative schools, such as Magnet schools or laboratory schools. Usually, these types of schools are for *gifted* kids and require applications. If Tim really wants to switch schools, he should ask his counselor about other schools in the area.

[EC]

I have a question. Where I went to school, "alternative schools" were where they sent the delinquents. Are these the same kind of schools you are talking about? Not all of the students who attended them here were delinquents, but they were the vast majority. This is something that needs to be taken into consideration before making a decision to switch. What are the other students like? Are these really the kind of people you want to surround yourself with all day?

Yes, but their the delinquents that chose to stay in school rather than drop out, and they were in general more interesting people than the sheep who mostly attend normal schools. And if you don't really care what anyone you are "surrounded by" thinks about you and you don't let influence you in a negative way, like in my case, the advantages are immense. I flew through all those classes as far and away the best student in the school at my own paces, using essentially my own rules, and skipping class half of the time to hang out on the beach or whatnot. This is how school should and can be. Efficient, little or no teacher involvement but available for questions if needed, self-paced, and filled with students who have chosen to be there and aren't afraid to speak their minds and do as they choose. If that isn't what an Objectivist school, except it should be privately funded, then I don't know what is?

[Bold Standard]

Welcome, studentofObjectivism.

I'd like to say that, although I didn't read any of Ayn Rand's books until just after high school, my experience was similar to yours.

Here is an exact dialogue, to the best of my recollection, from an experience i had in 2nd grade-

Teacher: "Class, who can explain to me what 'taxes' are? ...David?"

Me: "Taxes are when the government steals money from people."

Teacher: [something close to a scream] "No!!! Taxes are just the way the government pays for goods and services that people need, like this school ['and my paycheck!'.. said the fear in her eyes]."

Me: "Well, what happens when people choose not to pay their taxes?"

Teacher: "Well.. They.. go to jail."

When I heard my teacher say all this, and saw on her face that her answer not only didn't bother her, but seemed to satisfy her as though it were a refutation of my hypothesis, rather than proof I was right, I realized something very important about the public school system-- I didn't learn the words and the history of it until later, but what I was starting to realize is that the public school system *is a socialist institution*, therefore, it is within the public school teacher's interest, qua public school teacher, to (try to) defend socialist principles. And since socialist principles cannot be defended with reason, they will try other means (such as intimidation).

My best advice, if you choose to remain in the public school system, is to try to develop some kind of sense of humor about it. I stayed in all the way through my senior year, and graduated.. but every senior at my school had to write an essay that was to count as a large percentage of his English and Government classes, on a political topic. The topic I picked was that the public school system should be completely eliminated! And I'll tell you this much-- my paper would have been a lot better if I'd known about Ayn Rand, but even still.. it was so well researched and so convincingly argued that- despite being littered front and back with snide and derrisive comments from the teachers- I received a high A -- and my Government teacher, who was a Liberal Democrat and a City Councilman in my small town -- asked if he could retain a copy to show to future classes as an example of a well written essay.

Then, you can always just get a GED and skip straight on to college. The only possible rational reason I know of to finish high school, if it's public, is to try and win scholarships to universities. So start applying now!.. (btw, I'm a musician too. Hope to see you post more.)

[EC]

What used to really annoy me is that every other year the teachers would tell us to go home and tell our parents to vote for a millage increase or they would go on strike or shut down the school or something. There reasoning was that no matter how much money they were underpaid and deserved an X percentage increase every year because according to them that's what "everybody else" gets. When I was really young, I fell for it and when I would tell my Dad he would get p*ssed off. As I got older I started to see through their scam and see how immoral it was. Then I started hoping they would go on strike, and maybe lose all their jobs in the process, which would never happen in Michigan being the bastion of socialism and unions the Detroit Metro area is. But a kid could wish, and I did.

[AMERICONORMAN]

I learned about Ayn Rand through fantasy author Terry Goodkind. I thought the ideas in his books intriguing. I looked at his website and found out his philosophy was based on that of Ayn Rand. I had heard of her before but didn't know what she was. I have read The Virtue of Selfishness, We the Living, The Romantic Manifesto, and am currently reading The Fountainhead.

What troubles me is that I am not supposed to like Ayn Rand as some of the teachers I admire say. She is 'cultish'. When I speak up in class, my classmates don't understand why I don't believe in God and the teacher can't seem to get past how one shouldn't live for the sake of another.

I have come to the point where I think that Objectivism may be unpractical. For the past weeks, this has been extremely depressing for me. I say to myself, if I don't believe in Objectivism what is there to believe?

Don't worry, Leonard Peikoff met Ayn Rand at 17 with the same problem: the dichotomy between the moral and the practical.