Split: From Beauty

[AMERICONORMAN]

It is this:

1. Ayn Rand loved Allan Greenspan, not romantically, but still. If it is true that she called him the undertaker because of his premise that one cannot prove one exists, and often asked N. Branden whether he has decided whether he exists yet or not -- I find this extremely funny.

Now, she and Frank, fell in love in their twenties, when Rand still had some Nietzschean premises. I could easily imagine similar humour among the two at varous levels of their improved understanding of philosophy. Like she always said, it is one's sense of life that one falls in love with. The rest is up to reason, it backs it up, supports it, and helps it grow, i.e, reason.

I would find it absurd to tell someone who matches you more than any other human being, that because you have not accepted a certain premise we will not have sex. It will be more like, the best of you I love, but some part of you is silly... and I joke about that. I don't condemn you because I know you're potential.

And just think about dirty talk in sex. "Oh, you still think that life is doom because the people you meet are evil mediocrities ... well, take that! how much happiness is possible in this world, tell me ... tell me ... scream it ...

That's just my opinion, but I've never fallen in love so correct me if I'm wrong.

Americo.

P.S. And/or send this to the trash can .... (-:

[Free Capitalist]

When I was in college, I had some mild acne problems. As a result, I was insecure about my appearance. Was it IMMORAL for me to date because of that?

If so: Holy Acontextual Rationalistic Deduction, Batman!

If not: Holy Absurd Overbroad Generalization, Batman!

Thank you, Diana.

EDIT: Free Capitalist cannot edit his posts more than 1 hour after submitting them, so I am the one doing it by his request. Here's what he'd like to say:

"I know I have been extremely harsh on TomL, but I believe it was justified because of innocent people being hurt, and the name of Objectivism being indirectly besmirched. However, after a private discussion with TomL, I have decided to erase the negative comments I wrote in his direction. I know how scathing they were, and therefore do not want to dampen the general mood of the forum any more than I have to. TomL and I seem to have come to an understanding, so, although the hostility was justified, I no longer wish my remarks to remain. For the time being I'd like to try and get everything to return back to normal.

Oh, and I hope dondigitalia feels sufficiently vindicated "

- Felipe

Edited April 14, 2005 by Felipe

[iouswuoibev]

Being insecure and trying to find a relationship are now said to be an immoral combination. Let's put aside what this says about TomL himself, because everyone, but everyone, has insecurity, and exceptions are truly miniscule.

This is not determinism?

If you KNOW you have insecurities, you should and can do something about it.

I have a few insecurities, I bet Diana has a few; even Ayn Rand had insecurities (about her voice, for one thing).

God you're brutal.

So by demanding that people, including himself, absolve themselves of all insecurities before seeking a romantic relationship, TomL has demanded a truly staggering degree of repression.

I didn't see him recommending oppression, specifically. That is not the only way to eradicate an insecurity. In fact, it's not a way.

I say repression because TomL is certainly not healthier than Ayn Rand was, and he has, beyond any doubt, his own share of insecurities;

Which ones!?

but by professing that he doesn't, and by making himself believe that doesnt, TomL is effectively hamstringing his psychology and subconscious.

IF he had insecurities.

If AR had these issues, then TomL himself certainly does as well, regardless of how much he denies it.

Great; if Ayn Rand made a mistake, we have all necessarily made a mistake because their is absolutely no way we can make fewer mistakes of that nature than Ayn Rand did... I guess logic isn't needed here.

Plus, in addition to a confession of having a very unhealthy penchant for repression,

I must have missed where he said that.

TomL also shows himself guilty of hypocrisy: if we already know beyond any doubt that he he too has some insecurities, and he had stated previously that he is in a relationship, what other conclusion can be made? Having insecurities but repressing oneself, expecting oneself to instantaneously become a hero and a giant of character and putting oneself forth to to others as one, and then casting down haughty condemnations on the lowly non-heroic peons for failing up to live up to his standards, is certainly not a healthy way to live.

Which haughty condemnations are those? TomL stated that he was trying to help, and I don't see any indication of him being anything other than helpful.

[iouswuoibev]

It *is* presumptuous.  Without knowing me (or any of the many other women toward whom such a comment is directed), such a man claims that he would be of value to me (and them) -- of romantic value, no less.

But, get this: it's a joke. And it still doesn't state WHAT you should read from it; for all you know the joke could be saying "I'm a high value which is ridiculous, so you should all point and laugh". That you decided it was stating "I am of romantic value to you" is an assumption. If he came out and said "I am of romantic value to all the ladies here, and every one of them is unfortunate not to have me"; well, then that would be wrong... I am.

(And if you're offended by what I just said there; then I suggest you not place so much importance on what other people think. And do some introspection!!)

Tell me: if someone came up to you and said: "You're an idiot", what would your reaction be? Well, if it's anything other than "And your point is...?" you probably have some work to do.

That's false: a person is not a good romantic partner solely in virtue of being a virtuous Objectivist.  As such, it shows a serious disrespect for the legitimate optional values of every woman in earshot.

Except for one thing: it's a joke.

It tells her that she -- who she is and what she wants in a man -- is not important to him.  He's some kind of acontextual value to all women.

It is a joke, remember?

In any case, a truly self-confident man has no need to publicly declare his personal value to strangers.

That's true; a truly self-confident man also see's no reason why he shouldn't anyway.

[dianahsieh]

But, get this: it's a joke.

....

Except for one thing: it's a joke.

...

It is a joke, remember?

Okay, you obviously just totally forgot the thread of our debate... which was my claim that a comment like "Much to all you ladies' chagrin, I don't really do the online dating thing" would be offensive, disrespectful, presumptous, rude, etc -- IF MADE SERIOUSLY, RATHER THAN IN JEST. (So the original joke just wasn't relevant any more.)

That's fine, I really have no desire to say any more on the topic.

[iouswuoibev]

Okay, you obviously just totally forgot the thread of our debate... which was my claim that a comment like "Much to all you ladies' chagrin, I don't really do the online dating thing" would be offensive, disrespectful, presumptous, rude, etc -- IF MADE SERIOUSLY, RATHER THAN IN JEST.  (So the original joke just wasn't relevant any more.)

How do you tell the difference between a comment that is "made seriously" and being said in jest? I think the more serious it comes across, the more funny it is. But perhaps you need the "j/k" afterwards just to reassure you that it is a joke...

That's fine, I really have no desire to say any more on the topic.

That's unfortunate because we haven't finished.

[TomL]

Being insecure and trying to find a relationship are now said to be an immoral combination.

Apparently you missed the earlier reply I made to Diana where I said:

It was an oversight on my part to think that everyone would know that I did not mean insecurity in any sense imaginable.  I meant "insecure" in regard to the efficacy with which one lives.

[Nxixcxk]

Yes, Ayn Rand did say exactly that, in "Answer to Readers (About a Woman President)" in The Objectivist.

Yes, Ayn Rand did say that, but with what argumentation did she back it up with? To me it (the issue of femininity) definitely doesn't seem self-evident.

[dondigitalia]

Wow! Go away for a week, and look what happens!

What I said was (quoting from memory):

"Much to all you ladies chagrin (j/k), I don't really do the online dating thing."

The "j/k" did not refer to kidding about being the type of man women on this board should value. "Much to all you ladies chagrin" is an estimate of the values of all the women on this board, none of whom have I ever met in person. Since I have never met any of them, I doubt I could seriously say what each of them does and does not value. It was that assertion that I was kidding about.

As far as dating being to serious to joke about... wtf?! It's not as though dating = life-long-end-all-be-all-romace. Dating itself isn't necessarily something serious, although it can grow into a serious relationship. Since my first date some 12 years ago, I've gone out with tons of other women, but only two of those were in any way a serious relationship. The whole point of dating is to figure out whether you care to take your relationship with a person seriously. Frankly, I'd be a little put off if a woman regarded our relationship as a serious matter from day 1, without having had a chance to really learn about me.

I don't think there are many things in life that can't be turned into a joke in the right context, but then I'm a lol-addict. I make jokes, and I like to hang out with other people who make jokes. Not every jokester is insecure. Some of us — brace yourself for this one, it's a doozy — just think laughing, chuckling, smiling, and entertaining ourselves and others is (*gasp*) fun.

You said that most of the women who read my comment probably either sighed, cringed or chuckled. If they chuckled, I got the right response. If they did either of the other two, we probably wouldn't get along too great anyway, so who cares?

And, I still don't really do the online dating thing. I'm not 100% opposed to online dating. I'm just a hand-on face-to-face kind of guy, so I don't really go lookin' for love via mouse-click. It may be old-fashioned, but I really enjoy seeing my date smile at me rather than some camera man I don't know; I get more satisfaction out of opening doors, pulling out chairs, and picking up the tab than pressing plastic buttons to yield the phrase "bye hun, c u l8r"; and I don't think anyone would disagree that sex is much, much better with a live person than an AIM window.

There you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Care to give any other psycho-analyses, Dr. TomL? You seem to have an unparalleled talent for deciphering the subconscious messages hidden in my statements. Your psychological skill is so great that you even uncovered some neurosis neither I or my closest friends ever suspected. And to think, you did it with only one sentence at your disposal!

And, yes, she is still very attractive in that picture. And, yes, I'm still ending it with , because smilies are cute, and there was no smiley suggestively raising it's eyebrows. And, no, I'm most definitely not trying to "creep" on Felipe's girl.

Edited to add sarcasm. Why, you ask? Because it makes me lol.

[dondigitalia]

Oh, and I hope dondigitalia feels sufficiently vindicated "

I appreciate that you came to my defense, but I still didn't feel vindicated. I do now, though. (see above post.)

[dondigitalia]

Contrary to Free Capitalist's assumptions, my intent was not to condemn dondigitalia.  My intent actually was to help him, and others reading this.  I hope that he understands this, even if others don't.

Regardless of your intentions, your response contained an unfounded appraisal of my character, which I do find offensive. I suggest that in the future, you refrain from making assertions (or at least voicing them) about other people's character from one or two, or even three, sentences. Particularly if they are sentences in print, where you don't have the absolutely vital clues given by tone-of-voice and body-language.

Ms. Hsieh hit the nail on the head where my joke was concerned. I began with an unfounded appraisal of the values of people I don't know, which, if said seriously, is very offensive. Since I recognized the potential offense that could be taken, I made sure it was seen as a joke. You, on the other hand, made an appraisal of my psychological character based on a huge misinterpretaion, and were most definitely NOT joking.

[Nxixcxk]

Wow! Go away for a week, and look what happens!

brace yourself for this one, it's a doozy — just think laughing, chuckling, smiling, and entertaining ourselves and others is (*gasp*) fun.

I don't really go lookin' for love via mouse-click. It may be old-fashioned, but I really enjoy seeing my date smile at me rather than some camera man I don't know; I get more satisfaction out of opening doors, pulling out chairs, and picking up the tab than pressing plastic buttons to yield the phrase "bye hun, c u l8r"; and I don't think anyone would disagree that sex is much, much better with a live person than an AIM window.

hahahah lmao, dond, you're my hero!