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I'm in 9th grade and I've read the Fountainhead, Anthem, and Atlas Shrugged. I'm interested in learning more about Objectivism and have opted to do an extra credit paper on it for one of my classes. Is anybody that considers themselves a true Objectivist willing to answer a few questions? It would be a big help but otherwise I'll just surf around here and try to find some answers.

Also, any recommendations as to books on Objectivism?

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Virtue of Selfishness; For the New Intellectual; Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal; Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology; Objectivism -- the Philosophy of Ayn Rand. That's my suggestion about order.

I don't think you need CUI before OPAR, and ITOE *should* come after OPAR, because you need to understand metaphysics before delving into epistemology.

I agree that VOS should be the book you start with. I would also get a copy of the Ayn Rand Lexicon. All of these books are available from the Ayn Rand Bookstore at www.aynrand.org.

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Dear "Curious Student",

I wish I had discovered Ayn Rands work at such an early time in my life! As for your questions and wish to learn more about Objectivism, I do think you should take a look at the website of The Ayn Rand Institute (ARI).

The ARI promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand and their site

www.aynrand.org

has a wealth of information that should be of value to you. For instance, at

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pag...vism_audiovideo

there are two introductory lectures available for free on line by professional Objectivist philosophers. One is by the founder of the Ayn Rand Institute and Ayn Rands best pupil and intellectual heir, Dr. Leonard Peikoff (75 min.), the other is by Dr Gary Hull (5 hours).

You can also, for free, get an information packet on Objectivism by filling out the following form here:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=request_info

ARI has also prepared a suggested reading list, here:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pag...ctivism_sugread

Perhaps also ARI's "voluntarism" program may be of interest to you? Check it out on their pages.

The ARI also has a really outstanding educational program you might be interested in (I have taken their undergraduate courses and can recommend it with all my heart, I've never had such good teachers in my life, and I'm a graduate student in history of philosophy):

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pag...education_index

I wish you good luck in your studies!

Best regards,

Harald

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I would have to disagree with recommending ITOE to a ninth grader. Granted c_s is obviously way ahead of most of his/her peers in seeking out answers vis a vis objectivism, but I started with OPAR when I was in my late 20s (with a college degree and lots of experience with philosophy) and I still struggled with it. I thing Peikoff's OPAR has enough epistemology to get started in objectivism, plus Rand's VOS and FTNI, etc., along with the concise and (relatively simple) thrusts of the ARI resources recommended by Harald.

Good Luck c_s, yours is the glorry!!! :(

Scott

Edited by exaltron
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Is anybody that considers themselves a true Objectivist willing to answer a few questions?

I would be happy to answer a few questions. I suggest you start a new thread for each question you have.

Also, you might consider picking up a copy of The Ayn Rand Reader, edited by Gary Hull and Leonard Peikoff. This is a good compilation of Ayn Rand's philosophical writings.

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I'm in 9th grade and I've read the Fountainhead, Anthem, and Atlas Shrugged.

My guess is that the number of ninth graders who have read Atlas Shrugged would fit into a very small classroom. As exaltron said, you are clearly way ahead of your peers. What books did you enjoy before you started on Ayn Rand, and how did you discover her?

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My guess is that the number of ninth graders who have read Atlas Shrugged would fit into a very small classroom.  As exaltron said, you are clearly way ahead of your peers.  What books did you enjoy before you started on Ayn Rand, and how did you discover her?

Thanks. I was out of books to read (it's about all I do, reading) and I came upon "The Fountainhead." At first the story interested me, but then I started thinking about some of the deeper messages. Ayn Rand has a lot to say and her philosophies interested me greatly, so I picked up "Anthem" and decided to tackle "Atlas Shrugged." Before, I really read about anything I could find - Steinbeck, Bronte, Vonnegut...mostly off my mother's shelf.

Any ideas for books beyond the Objectivism tract?

Thanks for being so responsive!

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Among novelists, I like Dostoyevski, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, Greene, Huxley and Waugh.

Thanks! I love Faulkner, Fitzgerald and Huxley, but I haven't read any Waugh or Greene. Not so sure about Dostoyevski.

Even with Ayn Rand, I think Vonnegut is still my favorite. But Rand's not far behind... :lol:

Edited by curious_student
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Even with Ayn Rand, I think Vonnegut is still my favorite. But Rand's not far behind... :thumbsup:

Okay, I haven't read any Vonnegut, but I did a Google search on him, I'm always looking for good books/authors when I came across this on his website:

Vonnegut has typically used science fiction to characterize the world and the nature of existence as he experiences them. His chaotic fictional universe abounds in wonder, coincidence, randomness and irrationality. Science fiction helps lend form to the presentation of this world view without imposing a falsifying causality upon it.

As you will come to see, this view is extremely wrong. The world is rational and causal. I don't know why anyone would write about a world that wasn't, but I am utterly puzzled why you like it. Could you please elaborate on why it is that you like Vannegut? I am a curious, just like you. :D

Zak

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Okay, I haven't read any Vonnegut, but I did a Google search on him, I'm always looking for good books/authors when I came across this on his website:

As you will come to see, this view is extremely wrong. The world is rational and causal. I don't know why anyone would write about a world that wasn't, but I am utterly puzzled why you like it. Could you please elaborate on why it is that you like Vannegut? I am a curious, just like you.  :) 

Zak

I don't have time for a long response now, but steer clear of Vonnegut!! Kurt Vonnegut is one of the most irrational nihilistic authors I have ever read. His novels are written incoherently, with chapters in the past, present and future all jumbeled together. To top that off, he believes that technology is evil, and that Man in general is basically idiotic. The Sirens of Titan is bizzare, Slaughterhouse 5 could have been written under the influence of drugs, Cat's Cradle is the worst of them all and makes absolutely no sense, Mother Night advocates the morally "gray", relativism crap. Read Vonnegut if you want a headache, upset stomach, and an irresistable urge to burn, shread, or somehow destroy his "novels". And as a side note, his "science fiction" is practically a parody of serious SF and is an insult to the entire genre. :thumbsup:

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Never mind what others say.  You are right to enjoy Vonnegut, one of the great masters of the comic novel.  Cat's Cradle is perhaps the best satire of religion ever written.

Hey. I was just asking what was good about Vonnegut because what I read on his website seemed quite anit-Objectivist. I was just wondering why curious_student liked both of them when they seem to have contradictory philosophies.
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I'm in 9th grade and I've read the Fountainhead, Anthem, and Atlas Shrugged. I'm interested in learning more about Objectivism and have opted to do an extra credit paper on it for one of my classes. Is anybody that considers themselves a true Objectivist willing to answer a few questions? It would be a big help but otherwise I'll just surf around here and try to find some answers.

Also, any recommendations as to books on Objectivism?

Don't worry, you're not alone!

I'm 16 years old in my sophomore year in a extremely liberal state (I think the vote was 65% Kerry and 35% Bush - but that might not be the exact total vote in the last election) and more specifically in a socialist school - most of the teachers believe that anyone who needs something deserves it. She said that Welfare isn't good because it keeps the person in the system and the person never finds a job. Therefore minimum wage should be raised to at least 'the living wage'. Go figure.

Anyway, I've read We the Living, The Virtue of Selfishness, The Romantic Manifesto, and am currently reading The Fountainhead (on pg. 500 or so).

I've read parts of "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand" and it pretty much covers every principle of Objectivism in depth enough for you to have a good understanding of that principle. That is a good place to start.

For fiction books, you'll want to look at Terry Goodkind. He is a novelist where the background of his stories is fantasy. However, each of his books has a theme or a "Wizard's Rule". Some include "The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is Reason" or "Deserve Victory". The main character, Richard, is so heroic he almost reminds me of Howard Roark. Anyway, if fantasy is your niche, than definately check his book "Wizard's First Rule" out. :lol:

Oh and as an endnote - make all knee-buckling liberals wish they had never been born. :lol:

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I don't have time for a long response now, but steer clear of Vonnegut!! Kurt Vonnegut is one of the most irrational nihilistic authors I have ever read. His novels are written incoherently, with chapters in the past, present and future all jumbeled together. To top that off, he believes that technology is evil, and that Man in general is basically idiotic.  The Sirens of Titan is bizzare, Slaughterhouse 5 could have been written under the influence of drugs, Cat's Cradle is the worst of them all and makes absolutely no sense, Mother Night advocates the morally "gray", relativism crap. Read Vonnegut if you want a headache, upset stomach, and an irresistable urge to burn, shread, or somehow destroy his "novels". And as a side note, his "science fiction" is practically a parody of serious SF and is an insult to the entire genre. :lol:

The only things I've ever read of his were "Harrison Bergeron" and Mother Night. Harrison Bergeron was a satire on today's quest for *equality* and I thought it was alright, but the movie with Sean Astin is much better. The value of Mother Night is debatable, as the main character is very relativist and pathetic. However, the context is important. The main character was an American spy. He became friendly with the Nazis and became one himself. So rather than argue about the value of this book, maybe we should start a thread about spies. Are they moral? I thought the main character of the book was despicable, but I found the premise interesting.
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I agree that Mother Night has an interesting premise, and a pivotal part of understanding Vonnegut's message was found in the beginning of the book: “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” The question that arises is whether the value a spy achieves overrides the damage caused by his actions. Howard W. Campbell is a perfect character for this sort of introspection, because of what he was, how he started and ended. Campbell began as an artist, a writer, who wrote plays. He then became twisted into a Nazi under the guise of helping the Americans. So was he justified in his actions because he was a spy? Of course not, and Campbell knew this as well: it was the reason he committed suicide. (This ending is inconsistent with the rest of Vonnegut's philosophy).

What I found despicable about this book was that Vonnegut tried to twist your emotions into having you sympathize with Campbell, make you pity rather than hate him. This seems to be a trend; he made Nazis look ridiculous rather than evil. For Vonnegut everything is a big joke, with Man as the biggest joke of all. This pattern when extrapolated can turn into this: Vonnegut views both Mankind as a whole, and Nazis as ridiculous. Nazis were undeniably evil. Mankind is also evil, as well as his brainchild, technology. Vonnegut doesn't believe in free will, so of course this leads to moral relativism. If everything is relative, than perhaps the Nazis weren't so bad after all - if they don't have free will than you can't blame them for their actions. Oh and of course, mankind is doomed to destroy himself - it is inevitable. (I gathered this from all of the books of his I have read: Player Piano, The Sirens of Titan,Mother Night,Slaughterhouse 5, and Cat's Cradle.) This is the essence of Vonnegut’s jumbled philosophy – it is contradictory, and resembles a circular argument. Vonnegut’s writing at times can mean anything: it hearkens back to Eastern philosophy, which sounds profound simply because it doesn’t have any meaning.

Some portions of his books are genuinely funny, and he does have talent as a satirist. What I can't stand about Vonnegut, and ruins any good portions of his novels are:

1. He doesn't believe in free will

2. The fractured quality of his novels - no consistency

3. He dislikes technology

4. He satires everything without exception

5. He abuses science fiction, and turns it into a tool against science

Overall evaluation: :lol:

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Hey. I was just asking what was good about Vonnegut because what I read on his website seemed quite anit-Objectivist. I was just wondering why curious_student liked both of them when they seem to have contradictory philosophies.

It's not really about Vonnegut's philosphy for me. I myself am a writer, and Vonnegut's writing style both intruigues and impresses me. While I read Ayn Rand for her ideas on life rather than her stories (all though she is a very good writer) I read Vonnegut for his satirical humor and something to lighten up my day. It's important not to just stay on the serious, philosphical tract. Who cares if "Slaughterhouse 5" and "Sirens of Titan" are strange and nonrealistic? They're funny and, let's face it, BRILLIANTLY written. Some of Vonnegut's philosphies are, I admit, weird and very contradictory to Rand's, but for me it's not about the philosphy. Any aspiring writer should read Vonnegut. He's a genius in his own way, and very few writers can create something as delicously funny as is "Cat's Cradle."

(Edited to fix a spelling mistake.)

Edited by curious_student
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If you like science fiction check out Heinlein (his newer stuff is better! The older stuff gets seriously whacked!). Then read David Weber, John Ringo, Elizabeth Moon, Eric Flint, Neal Stephenson . . .

(Um, I like science fiction)

I also recommend the Harry Potter books and anything by Terry Pratchett!

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