Israeli Pullout Of Gaza

[The Wrath]

Discuss.

[The Wrath]

I left this open-ended on purpose, because I don't know much about what's going on, but I guess no one took the bait. Here are some starter questions:

Are Israeli settlers being forced to leave Gaza or is the IDF just pulling out?

Whatever the answer to the first question, is it a moral thing to do?

[DavidOdden]

Are Israeli settlers being forced to leave Gaza or is the IDF just pulling out?

Whatever the answer to the first question, is it a moral thing to do?

The answer to the second question depends on the answer to the first.

[BurgessLau]

Discuss.

Are you giving orders? Do you expect everyone to obey?

[BurgessLau]

Are Israeli settlers being forced to leave Gaza or is the IDF just pulling out?

According to news reports I have read -- and you know how reliable mass media news reports are -- the government of Israel has ordered the Jewish settlers in Gaza to leave Gaza as part of the IDF pull-out to more defensible boundaries.

Based on two assumptions, I would say the order is proper. The assumptions are:

1. The change will allow the Israeli Defense Force to better allocate their resources, and to not worry about inadvertently killing Israelis when the IDF next attacks Gaza.

2. The settlers choosing to stay are forcing their children to remain in the settlements, thus making the children targets of Muslim attacks when the IDF pulls its troops out of the settlements. If adults want to commit suicide, so be it, but they don't have a right to put their children in the same place when other options are available.

Personally, if assumption 1 is true, I would abandon these religious zealots (as they appear to be from news reports) to their deaths, as long as their children were moved to safety in Israel.

If anyone has contrary information, I would like to hear it. I would not be surprised that my "information" is distorted.

Edited August 3, 2005 by BurgessLau

[DavidOdden]

If adults want to commit suicide, so be it, but they don't have a right to put their children in the same place when other options are available.

Though I initially considered this from the adult perspective (and I don't agree that possible collateral damage is a valid reason for using force), the fact that these nutcakes breed like rabbits and are forcing innocent children to die in the name of religious insanity is sufficient grounds to use force. Therefore, I change my answer to an unqualified "yes".

[Alon]

I have several problems with the pullout:

1) Strategically, Israel loses ground. Rockets fired from southern Gaza at neighbouring Israeli towns will now be able to be fired from northern Gaza and hit major towns such as Ashkelon and Tel Aviv.

2) The Palestinians are not being asked to make any concessions, Israel is simply leaving. Terrorist groups will take this as another retreat - as they took Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon - and have even less incentive to seek peace.

3) Israel has stopped its policy of targetted assassinations and demolitions. Israel needs to show it is not giving up and running with its tail between its legs. They have to continue assassinating terrorist leaders and demolishing infostructure, just as they did when they abandoned the Sinai and returned it to Egypt.

4) Why the urgency? Yes, the occupation is costly, but the Palestinians have offered nothing in return, not even a "cease fire". Is Sharon using this to cover up for the mass corruption under his tenure?

On the other hand, there is no doubt that Israel's continual presence in Gaza is costly in lives and resources. Also, there is no alternative since annexing the Gaza strip and giving the Palestinians there citizenship rights would eliminate Israel's democratic government.

I also don't know how realistic this is, but Israel should consider creating two separate Palestinian states, one in Gaza and one in the West Bank.

Divide and rule, so to speak.

[The Wrath]

2) The Palestinians are not being asked to make any concessions, Israel is simply leaving.  Terrorist groups will take this as another retreat - as they took Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon - and have even less incentive to seek peace.

This is my main concern as well. It reinforces terrorist behavior and makes them think they won, just like Hizballah currently believes that they are the only Arab group to force the Jews to retreat.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that Israel's continual presence in Gaza is costly in lives and resources.  Also, there is no alternative since annexing the Gaza strip and giving the Palestinians there citizenship rights would eliminate Israel's democratic government.

Can you elaborate on how this would destroy Israel's democratic government?

I also don't know how realistic this is, but Israel should consider creating two separate Palestinian states, one in Gaza and one in the West Bank.

I am opposed to giving the Palestinians any state, but if you're gonna do it, I think giving them 2 states would be a bad idea. Just make it a non-contiguous state, the way Alaska and Hawaii are to the US. But it won't make a difference, because they've rejected any form of state that's been offered to them in the past.

I've always thought it was absurd for them to want a state called "Palestine." Never, in history, has a state called "Palestine" even existed. It's the name for the land that is now Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, Syria, and (I think) Lebanon. The Palestinians used to oppose having their own state, because they considered themselves to be part of Syria. Oh well...people are stupid.

I've actually read that many Palestinians oppose the Israeli withdrawal, but I can't imagine why that would be. Anyone know?

[Alon]

Moose wrote:

Can you elaborate on how this would destroy Israel's democratic government?

Giving Gazan Palestinians, roughly 1 million in number, the right to vote in an Israeli election would mean the creation of an extremist Islamic party to represent their views. This new population will make up 1/6 of the new total electorate of Israel, a very powerful voting block. That power can easily be used to slowly dismantle the nation's democratic institutions or to affect Israeli policy to its own detriment.

The reason I think they should have two separate states, one in Gaza and one in the West Bank, is to weaken the authority any future Palestinian government will have. This way, the Palestinians have two governments which will probably bicker among themselves (Gaza is far more religious and supportive of Hamas than the more secular West Bank) and Israel will not be required to maintain a land route through its own territory (as it is already planning to do).

[The Wrath]

Giving Gazan Palestinians, roughly 1 million in number, the right to vote in an Israeli election would mean the creation of an extremist Islamic party to represent their views.  This new population will make up 1/6 of the new total electorate of Israel, a very powerful voting block.  That power can easily be used to slowly dismantle the nation's democratic institutions or to affect Israeli policy to its own detriment.

That's what I thought you meant; thanks for the clarification.

[BurgessLau]

Giving Gazan Palestinians, roughly 1 million in number, the right to vote in an Israeli election would mean the creation of an extremist Islamic party to represent their views. 

Are you saying that you believe that all one million Gazan Palestinians would form and join only one political party? If so, why do you believe that would happen? Doesn't the history of that area indicate that -- when they have the freedom to do so -- Arab Muslims tend to split into many political fragments, often bickering among themselves?

(I think your idea of splitting the Palestinians into two states is an intriguing one.)

[AisA]

I've actually read that many Palestinians oppose the Israeli withdrawal, but I can't imagine why that would be.  Anyone know?

I can think of four possible reasons.

First, the Jews are automatically wrong, no matter what they do. Second, any withdrawal must be under fire so it can be viewed as forced. Third, nothing less than the total surrender of Israel is acceptable.

Lastly, a small percentage of the Palestinians are rational enough to realize that the presence of the Jews means a better economy, the rule of law, etc.

[Yes]

The whole act of Israel withdrawing from occupied lands sends a signal that Israel will do most anything to try to achieve peace with the Arab world.

This pragmatic approach to diplomacy has in it the grave danger that it emboldens the terrorist organizations like Hamas, who might impose further demands upon Israel. We need to observe as to whether this move by Israel indeed results in peace. Based upon past history, I cannot be optimistic.

[RationalEgoistSG]

While it may be the case that Israel is making the right move by withdrawing government control over Gaza (though I would debate that point), do they have the right to force people out of their homes and then bulldoze what they've built?

Imagine 50 years into the future, due to the strong influx of criminals coming in as illegal immigrants we decide to force thousands in Texas out of their homes and give it over to Mexico. And instead of the Israeli military imagine U.S. troops and swat teams dragging people out of their homes (perhaps even at gunpoint if necessary).

Would we not all condemn such an action as a mockery of individual rights and justice? Why have none of you done the same in this case?

It's true that the reason why most of the protesting settlers want to stay on their land is because of religious fanaticism, but so what? The minute we start letting the government exercise arbitrary power over our particular undesirables we open the door for ever-increasing abuses of power.

As for the argument that letting the settlers stay puts the children of these religious settlers in danger, I would say that's one of the very reasons why Israel should not be pulling out in the first place. The Israeli military should be protecting its citizens by going after terrorists, not retreating when attacked and making steps towards giving them a state.

This entire spectacle is a mockery of justice and it sickens me greatly. What's perhaps worse is that commentators are opposing the protests of the settlers on the grounds that the Israeli people made a decision as a democratic government and so these settlers have to abide by it.

If THIS is what President Bush means by spreading "democracy" across the Middle East, in which the individual rights of citizens can be discarded by the consensus of any majority, then I want no part in it.

[Ariana Binetta]

The Israeli military should be protecting its citizens by going after terrorists, not retreating when attacked and making steps towards giving them a state.

This entire spectacle is a mockery of justice and it sickens me greatly.

Jews number about 5 million and make up about 2.5% of the population of the Middle East. Arabs are about 200 million and 97.5%. Considering the never-ending evil visited upon them by the Arabs for 60 (or more) years straight, the Jews deserve maybe 5 or 10% of the land in compensation (which they can make far better use of anyway).

But despite having 1/40th of the Semetic population, Jews only have 1/600th of the Semetic land. When they surrender Gaza and the West Bank, they'll have just 1/800th. What could be more stunningly injust than this?

It's high time the Jews create a proper and Jewish state. Israel needs to recapture at a minimum Gaza, the West Bank, Sinai, the East Bank (Jordan), and parts of Lebanon and Syria and Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Then it needs to KICK THE ARABS OUT.

We would have peace in the Middle East overnight. We'd also have morality and justice.

Edited August 18, 2005 by Ariana Binetta

[RationalEgoistSG]

It's high time the Jews create a proper and Jewish state. Israel needs to recapture at a minimum Gaza, the West Bank, Sinai, the East Bank (Jordan), and parts of Lebanon and Syria and Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Then it needs to KICK THE ARABS OUT.

We would have peace in the Middle East overnight. We'd also have morality and justice.

Damn straight.

Too bad we'll never see anything like that anytime soon by either Israel or the U.S.

[The Wrath]

The reason I haven't brought up my disgust at kicking out the settlers is because, last time I posted in this thread, I was unaware of the fact that they would actually be forced to leave. I thought it was just recommended that they leave and, yes, what is happening is certainly disgusting.

What is equally disgusting is Ariana's suggestion that Israel take over Jordan and kick all the Arabs out of Palestine. By Palestine, I am referring to it as the Romans did, including Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, and Lebanon.

I'll give you the part about Gaza and the West Bank. They are terrorist havens and should certainly be put under control by Israel. But why Jordan and Sinai? Sinai was given to Egypt in exchange for peace, which has been achieved. Egypt has kept its end of the bargain and it would be the initiation of force for Israel to reclaim it. As for Jordan...why? Unlike the Palestinian territories, Jordan is a sovereign nation and has been at peace with Israel for years.

And kicking out all the Arabs? That is nothing short of outright racism. I'll grant that Arabs are, generally speaking, rather violent. But each individual Arab is not and to say that they should all be kicked out is nothing short of racism and the most disgusting form of collectivism in existence. You are essentially saying, "yeah, some Arabs may be peaceful, but because other people with their ancestral past tend to be violent, we're gonna kick all of them out."

If Israel has a legitimate beef with a particular nation, let them go to war. What Ariana is suggesting is imperialism against nations which have not initiated force and ethnic cleansing against Arabs, peaceful or not.

And what's this about a "proper Jewish state?" Are you suggesting that Israel should be ruled by the Jewish religion or that it should be a nation based on ethnicity? Either way, the suggestion is repulsive.

Edited August 18, 2005 by Moose

[Ariana Binetta]

What is...disgusting is Ariana's suggestion that Israel take over Jordan and kick all the Arabs out of Palestine.  By Palestine, I am referring to it as the Romans did, including Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, and Lebanon.

I'll give you the part about Gaza and the West Bank.  They are terrorist havens and should certainly be put under control by Israel.  But why Jordan and Sinai?  Sinai was given to Egypt in exchange for peace, which has been achieved.  Egypt has kept its end of the bargain and it would be the initiation of force for Israel to reclaim it.  As for Jordan...why?  Unlike the Palestinian territories, Jordan is a sovereign nation and has been at peace with Israel for years.

And kicking out all the Arabs?  That is nothing short of outright racism.  I'll grant that Arabs are, generally speaking, rather violent.  But each individual Arab is not and to say that they should all be kicked out is nothing short of racism and the most disgusting form of collectivism in existence....

If Israel has a legitimate beef with a particular nation, let them go to war.  What Ariana is suggesting is imperialism against nations which have not initiated force and ethnic cleansing against Arabs, peaceful or not.

And what's this about a "proper Jewish state?"  Are you suggesting that Israel should be ruled by the Jewish religion or that it should be a nation based on ethnicity?  Either way, the suggestion is repulsive.

Israel was created to be a Jewish State. When will this happen? Jews are, of course, their own worst enemy here. They appease Muslim evil almost to infinity.

Please note that nationalism isn't racism or ethnic cleansing. It's normal and rational. India was partitioned into 3 states in 1947. The basis was Muslim vs. Hindu. Palestine should have experienced something similar, also in 1947.

Italy and Germany were created based on 1800s nationalism. Let's be careful with our terms here. People of similar race, language, religion, history, culture, etc. seem to belong together.

As for REAL racism, ethnic cleansing, collectivism, imperialism, etc.--well, that was what the ARABS did in 1947. They did so with considerable cruelty too.

And this doesn't even consider the background of the Holocaust--which the Arabs loved.

[The Wrath]

So, because the Arabs joined the losing side of both world wars, the innocent among their descendants should suffer the consequences? You didn't suggest that Israel punish the guilty. You suggested that the Arabs be kicked out of the Middle East, altogether. First of all, it is awfully naive to believe that doing so would do anything but exacerbate terrorism. Even if it would cure the problem of violence in the Mid East it is racism to the highest degree and utterly evil, because it requires kicking people out of a geographical region based on their ancestry, not their individual actions.

Just because Israel was created as a Jewish state, doesn't mean that it should be a Jewish state. History is not always right. When people talk about the Christian founding of America, I rarely argue that America was not founded as Christian, even though it was not. Instead I argue that, even if it was founded as Christian, then the Founding Fathers would have been WRONG and the mistake should be corrected.

[Ariana Binetta]

Damn straight.

Too bad we'll never see anything like that anytime soon by either Israel or the U.S. 

People refer to this by the classic term "Jewish self-hatred." But it really seems to be WESTERN self-hatred. The Jews have very high principles which they're very loyal to. Too bad so many of these ideals are suicidal and wrong.

[Ariana Binetta]

Moose, at some point this issue is kinda easy: The fight between the Jews and Arabs is EXACTLY like the fight between the West and Islamdom. It's VERY easy to tell who is good and who is evil here. Let's not make excuses for these guys. They pretty much want us all forcibly converted, conquered, or killed.

[Captain Nate]

While it may be the case that Israel is making the right move by withdrawing government control over Gaza (though I would debate that point), do they have the right to force people out of their homes and then bulldoze what they've built?

Under normal circumstances, no. But this is not Israel-Proper. Israel cannot defend this territory forever without needlessly draining resources of the military. It's better now to get them out, re-enforce Israel-proper with a Jewish population rather than leave and let the Settlers fight and all-out war against the Palestinians while the Israeli military stands by and does nothing.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Captain Nate

[HaloNoble6]

So are you advocating a nanny-state that imposes "what's best" for the citizens with the use of force?

[The Wrath]

Moose, at some point this issue is kinda easy: The fight between the Jews and Arabs is EXACTLY like the fight between the West and Islamdom. It's VERY easy to tell who is good and who is evil here. Let's not make excuses for these guys. They pretty much want us all forcibly converted, conquered, or killed. 

Yes, the evil are the terrorists. There are, believe it or not, rational and moral Arabs who live in the Middle East. I had a good friend from high school who had lived in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for a time before coming to the United States. He is an Arab, but is rational and moral. So, by your standard, people like my high school friend should be kicked out of their homes for the simple reason that they are of Arabic descent.

[The Wrath]

I don't know why I didn't think of this example before.

I work on a terrorism research grant from the Department of Homeland Security. I am the regional leader for the Middle East, and there is a guy who works directly under me who is from Egypt. He is helping the US fight against terrorism through his work. Once his education is completed, he will be required by his government to return to Egypt. Ariana's logic holds that he should be thrown out of his home because he is Arabic, despite the fact that he is currently helping in the fight against radical Islam.