Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

The Woman Thread

Rate this topic


Groovenstein

Recommended Posts

Ayn Rand was not an attractive woman. In fact, she was almost unattractive. Take her mind out of the equation and she does not fulfill any ideal of human beauty.

I have never seen her in video, but I would guess that her facial expressions, despite her features, were extremely pleasureable to observe. I think facial expressions are a good indicator of how a person's mind operates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 293
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Ayn Rand was not an attractive woman. In fact, she was almost unattractive. Take her mind out of the equation and she does not fulfill any ideal of human beauty.

I have never seen her in video, but I would guess that her facial expressions, despite her features, were extremely pleasureable to observe. I think facial expressions are a good indicator of how a person's mind operates.

Heres a video interview with Ayn Rand: http://www.americanwriters.org/archives/player/rand.asp (click on Interview with Ayn Rand on the left)

I get turned on when I watch it. Her mind is hot, which in turn makes her body attractive. Thats the way I see it at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ayn Rand was not an attractive woman. In fact, she was almost unattractive. Take her mind out of the equation and she does not fulfill any ideal of human beauty.

You know, AR was already getting along in age before she became really famous. So the majority of pictures of her in common circulation are in her older years (in which, IMO, she's still not half bad). But, if you look at younger pictures of her (I did an internet search, and couldn't find many really good ones, but there are some in the book version of Ayn Rand: A Sense of Life), she was a cute flapper-looking girl when she was young. And who could resist those huge, piercing eyes? The fair skin? The petite build? The outrageous fashion sense? I think she was pretty hot, myself.

However, skimming through this thread, I've noticed my taste is quite drastically different from most people here. I would like to second the mention of Greta Garbo:

post-634-1149868605_thumb.jpgpost-634-1149868655_thumb.jpg

For Garbo, feminine sexuality was something exalted-- and she was gorgeous, and carried herself in a way that let you know she was intelligent, passionate, private, and strong; all of which qualities enhanced her beauty.

And I want to add my favorite lady, Lillian Gish (how could she not have been mentioned?? Did I just miss it? :) ):

post-634-1149869008_thumb.jpgpost-634-1149869056_thumb.jpg

I could sing her praises for hours. When I watch her act, it's as if my whole consciousness changes to follow her eyes and every gesture and facial expression. She's able to express so much with just the slightest change of expression. And what she's expressing is always something so rare, and deep-- even if the character is doing something shallow; it's the deepest way that type of shallowness could be portreyed.

To me, she represents a kind of delicate, extremely rare and exotic type of beauty that strikes me exactly as an ideal-- as an ideal I wouldn't even have the imagination to invent in my own dreams.

I also agree with other posters about Marilyn Monroe. And I'll conceed Jolie and Alba are at least extremely photogenic. But the majority of gals mentioned in this thread seem so plain to me. I mean, they seem to be mostly in good shape, and I might drool over them a little if I met them in person-- but that's different from setting them up as the ideal of feminine beauty, isn't it? Well, physical beauty is a highly personal thing, for sure. Hm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ayn Rand was not an attractive woman. In fact, she was almost unattractive. Take her mind out of the equation and she does not fulfill any ideal of human beauty.

I gotta disagree with this one. Ever seen the picture of her on the cover of The Letters of Ayn Rand? Her teeth are beautiful, and she looks radiant and happy. I agree with David, I think she was a beautiful woman in her prime.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still, if we're going to post some of our favorite ladies on this site (or in general, really) I'm going to have to go with thejohngaltline. http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.p...pic=4557&st=100 About half-way down the page. I think it would have to be a contradiction to suppose the existence of a prettier woman. *makes dumb oogly-eyes*

[Edit: For those interested, I might direct your attention to the very green eyes of thejohngaltline. A particular favorite of mine in the visual tour.]

Aleph, unless you're her brother or boyfriend, this is a really inappropriate thing to say regarding another forum member. Internet forums are not the kind of safe, relaxed environment where a lady can assume that compliments on her looks are meant innocently by a perfect gentleman. It is a sign of the good community here that people (ESPECIALLY women) feel safe enough to post photos. Don't discourage them by making unsolicited comments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...
Would you consider the woman in the next drawing to be feminine? Beautiful? attractive? Why?
I don't find her attractive, nor very feminine. Her form is distorted, her hair scraggly, and her body is striking an unpleasant pose. Like she's about to gorge out my intestines. I also don't like her face. Mainly I think the problems are with the execution of her physical form, or lack thereof. She isn't very realistic.

Kiera Knightly has a pretty face, but her figure is very boyish, or skeletal. She is a good actress, though, especially for her age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't find her attractive, nor very feminine. Her form is distorted, her hair scraggly, and her body is striking an unpleasant pose. Like she's about to gorge out my intestines. I also don't like her face. Mainly I think the problems are with the execution of her physical form, or lack thereof. She isn't very realistic.

The reason I put that drawing here is because it describes a very different "type" of woman than what has been presented here. Her exaggerated, complete confidence, and her directness do make her appear unfeminine.

However, I think this is the way every human being should be: confident and direct.

I think I over-did her left arm a bit. It gives her confidence an appearance of potential violence ( :( ) which was not the intention.

I find her appearance very elegant, which is why I named this "Elegant Lady".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason I put that drawing here is because it describes a very different "type" of woman than what has been presented here. Her exaggerated, complete confidence, and her directness do make her appear unfeminine.

However, I think this is the way every human being should be: confident and direct.

I think I over-did her left arm a bit. It gives her confidence an appearance of potential violence ( :dough: ) which was not the intention.

A woman can be confident, direct and very feminine at the same time.

I find her appearance very elegant, which is why I named this "Elegant Lady".

Her clothing is more casual than elegant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Her exaggerated, complete confidence, and her directness do make her appear unfeminine.

I think she would appear more confident if you had her face tilted upward. She looks kind of slouchy, and I've found confident people don't usually slouch. With her head cocked downward like that, she looks more contemptuous or possibly curious than she does confident or direct. Her face is kind of blank. Direct people are usually more expressive-- a smile, a laugh, a frown, a grimace-- something to let you know exactly what's going on in their head. That's what makes them direct; they're not afraid to express what they're really thinking. But I can't tell if she's thinking anything or not. She looks more like she's posing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A woman can be confident, direct and very feminine at the same time.

Her clothing is more casual than elegant.

I agree that a woman can be confident and feminine at the same time, but this one is somehow unfeminine, and it is because of her confidence (that's how it seems to me).

As for her elegance, it's not in her clothes, it's something in the manner that she smiles (just slightly) and in the way she is standing. I think the right word is that she looks very polite to me, hence her elegance.

I think she would appear more confident if you had her face tilted upward. She looks kind of slouchy, and I've found confident people don't usually slouch. With her head cocked downward like that, she looks more contemptuous or possibly curious than she does confident or direct. Her face is kind of blank. Direct people are usually more expressive-- a smile, a laugh, a frown, a grimace-- something to let you know exactly what's going on in their head. That's what makes them direct; they're not afraid to express what they're really thinking. But I can't tell if she's thinking anything or not. She looks more like she's posing.

You misinterpreted "direct": By "direct" I mean someone who looks other people straight in the eyes and examines them carefully without "giving them a slack", and not someone who expresses their thoughts and moods openly to everyone.

I disagree about contemptuous expression. It is examining and curious. However, each person interprets things like expressions and body language a bit differently according to their experience and premises, and may arrive at different conclusions.

As for being "slouchy" - I consider these to be just comfortable clothes (especially on hot days). More than that, short clothes show more of the body (naturally) which may be beautiful.

Edited by ifatart
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beauty is separate from elegance.

Elegance is purly volitional. It is showing sophistication and good taste in appearance. The choice of clothing is very much part of it (although not alone).

A person maybe beautiful but not elegant and vice versa.

Edited by ~Sophia~
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sophia:

I don't agree. I think beauty refers to a lot more than physical attributes, so to speak. They are most certainly not unrelated things; how elegant someone moves directly affects my appreciation of their beauty. If their elegance clashes with their physical beauty it will make the total less enjoyable for me to look at, and I therefore would say that they are not as beautiful as she could have been if she was more elegant in moving her body.

I guess we are both using a different definition of beauty, though. For me beauty is very much a sum of certain attributes she has or does not have. That includes more than just her physical attributes I have found.

Edited by Maarten
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sophia:

I don't agree. I think beauty refers to a lot more than physical attributes, so to speak. They are most certainly not unrelated things; how elegant someone moves directly affects my appreciation of their beauty. If their elegance clashes with their physical beauty it will make the total less enjoyable for me to look at, and I therefore would say that they are not as beautiful as she could have been if she was more elegant in moving her body.

I guess we are both using a different definition of beauty, though. For me beauty is very much a sum of certain attributes she has or does not have. That includes more than just her physical attributes I have found.

I actually don't disagree with you. There is more to beauty than purly physical attributes. My point was that one can achieve elegance without physical beauty. I agree that having elegance may make a person appear more attractive than they would have been otherwise, or the lack of may substract from their overall image (even if beautiful physically). It is not only what you have got - but what you do with it. Presentation is the key.

Edited by ~Sophia~
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree about contemptuous expression. It is examining and curious.

I can accept that interpretation. I said contemptuous or curious, because I wasn't sure which it is supposed to be (I don't have the best quality monitor, so it might be that I can't see all the finer details that would clarify).

As for being "slouchy" - I consider these to be just comfortable clothes (especially on hot days). More than that, short clothes show more of the body (naturally) which may be beautiful.
Slouchy is a reference to her posture, not her clothes. To slouch means simply to stand or sit hunched over, rather than straight and tall. In my experience, confident people tend to stand at their full heights, almost like a flower reaching for the sun. It seems the less confidence a person has, the more he slouches-- your girl isn't slouching very much, but she's not standing as straight as a ballerina or a soldier or someone with really good posture, so I think that just takes away from her confidence a little.

Christina Ricci

Somewhere I read an interview with her, once, in which she praised The Fountainhead as her favorite book. She's an interesting actress; she's got a unique look. I'd rate her.. lower than Garbo, Gish, and Monroe, but higher than most of the ladies that have been presented so far (pretty much all of whom are at least above average in beauty).

[edited to fix grammar. ]

Edited by Bold Standard
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slouchy is a reference to her posture, not her clothes. To slouch means simply to stand or sit hunched over, rather than straight and tall. In my experience, confident people tend to stand at their full heights, almost like a flower reaching for the sun.

Well, Maybe if you used words that can be found in my dictionary (not like "slouchy"), we wouldn't have a problem :blink:

And I disagree big time about slouching. Example: Howard Roark's description of sitting down or walking. Unfortunately, I don't have the book to quote from (Gave all my books to people I value that don't glance at them for months cause they're too busy), but in The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand gives a description of Roark as viewed from Keating's eyes: sitting like a cat, very loose and relaxed, like he doesn't have a single bone in his body. Another description is of the way he walk. I believe Rand described it as "lazy"?

Now, I don't know, maybe you think confident people should walk and sit like soldiers in formal ceremonies, but when I take a nice relaxing stroll in the sun, I usually enjoy dragging my legs and fooling around than walk like a board is stuck in my pants.

Slouching (if I understand it correctly) can imply someone who feels so secure about themselves, that they stand in a relaxed manner, or a lazy manner (in the good sense of the word...). But it would be a relaxation of someone ready to switch to active mode at any moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Maybe if you used words that can be found in my dictionary (not like "slouchy"), we wouldn't have a problem :blink:

And I disagree big time about slouching. Example: Howard Roark's description of sitting down or walking. Unfortunately, I don't have the book to quote from (Gave all my books to people I value that don't glance at them for months cause they're too busy), but in The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand gives a description of Roark as viewed from Keating's eyes: sitting like a cat, very loose and relaxed, like he doesn't have a single bone in his body. Another description is of the way he walk. I believe Rand described it as "lazy"?

Now, I don't know, maybe you think confident people should walk and sit like soldiers in formal ceremonies, but when I take a nice relaxing stroll in the sun, I usually enjoy dragging my legs and fooling around than walk like a board is stuck in my pants.

Slouching (if I understand it correctly) can imply someone who feels so secure about themselves, that they stand in a relaxed manner, or a lazy manner (in the good sense of the word...). But it would be a relaxation of someone ready to switch to active mode at any moment.

from The Fountainhead:

"Roark was there, on a davenport in the corner, half lying, sprawled limply like a kitten. It had often astonished Keating; he had seen Roark moving with the soundless tension, the control, the precision of a cat; he had seen him relaxed, like a cat, in shapeless ease, as if his body held no single solid bone." (p.36)

"He walked swiftly, with a loose, lazy expertness of motion." (p.17)

Here is an interesting quote to go with your last two sentences.

"[Dominique] thought: This is the tribute to Gail, the confidence of surrender—he relaxes like a cat—and cats don't relax except with people they like." (p.586)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, I don't know, maybe you think confident people should walk and sit like soldiers in formal ceremonies, but when I take a nice relaxing stroll in the sun, I usually enjoy dragging my legs and fooling around than walk like a board is stuck in my pants.

Well, with soldiers it's probably the case that there is a certain tension in their posture. But, if you've ever known a ballerina.. They are able to have perfect posture and still look relaxed and elegant. I'm always impressed, to be near a ballerina when she's out in public, and to see the way people react to her. Even if they don't know her profession, they're almost invariably intimidated by her, almost as though they are thinking, "Who does she think she is to stand so straight and tall?" As though it implies a kind of haughtiness. And maybe it does-- the haughtiness of self-confidence and pride in what one does and who one is.

But all that's not to say there's anything wrong with slouching sometimes. Just that it doesn't project a stylized ideal of confidence for me. A confident person can be comfortable-- but projecting comfort and projecting confidence are two different things, artistically speaking; and I would think it's possible to project both at the same time, but I'm not sure that's been achieved in that particular drawing. (But what do I know; I'm no art critic, I'm just saying since you asked for opinions)..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Maybe if you used words that can be found in my dictionary (not like "slouchy"), we wouldn't have a problem :blink:

Sorry about that. : ) Your English usage has been so good that I forget it's not your primary language. Here's what they say about "slouchy" at www.dictionary.com:

slouch (slouch) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "slouchy" [P]

slouch (slouch)

v. slouched, slouch·ing, slouch·es

v. intr.

1. To sit, stand, or walk with an awkward, drooping, excessively relaxed posture.

2. To droop or hang carelessly, as a hat.

v. tr.

To cause to droop; stoop.

n.

1. An awkward, drooping, excessively relaxed posture or gait.

2. Slang. An awkward, lazy, or inept person: good at chess and no slouch at bridge, either.

[Origin unknown.]

slouch'er n.

slouch'i·ly adv.

slouch'i·ness n.

slouch'y adj.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...