Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Rate this topic

Should all Communists and their sympathizers be banned from this forum?  

106 members have voted

  1. 1. Should all Communists and their sympathizers be banned from this forum?

    • Yes
      46
    • No
      37


Recommended Posts

The CapitalismMagazine forum has a rule that all Communists should be banned instantly. To quote, “Anyone who calls themselves a Marxist, Socialist or Communist and/or tries to 'prove' that National Socialism was a form of Capitalism will be banned instantly.” After encountering our latest commie troll, I am considering applying the rule to this forum as well. Presumably, the assumption is that communists are too corrupt to engage in any sort of rational discourse or critically examine their beliefs.

What do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, is there ever an announcement when someone is banned?

I'm asking because of that huesdens person who was saying all the crazycrazy on lots of threads.

I'm assuming someone unwelcomed him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tolerated him initially because I intended to take him on (it’s been a long time since I’ve debated Marxists) but when he started posting links to Marxist propaganda and all over the forum, I had enough.

(Btw, I see three “no” votes. If you want me to take those votes into consideration, some justification would be helpful.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All right. I voted no.

I think as long as a communist behaves himself well, he is fine here. In other words, he has to realize that this is not the place for him to engage in an intellectual war. But if he wants to post here and there so that he can use the forum as a resource to learn about Objectivism, that is fine.

So I wouldn't ban all communists. I would ban people who disrupt the forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw a forum subject on a pro-Che site (researching the enemy) that had a special section for non-communists and stated that that was the only place where they could post. That way they could still engage in discussions/disagreements while not disrupting the commies. If the site supporters (commies) wished to discuss/debate with them, they could; if the commies wanted only to interact with their own kind, they had the rest of the forum to do it in. I recommend having a subject topic that would be for designated for the filth and allow them to post there and there alone (assuming they are respectful and not taking up space with vague anti-capitalist remarks).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I propose a combination of Daniel's and Sedriss' solutions. Respectful questions by commies, etc, can be put anywhere (so long as they are not overtly "I disagree with you and nothing you say will convince me"), just as for anyone who is not currently a full-fledged Objectivist but is a student of the philosophy or just has a passing interest in it. Violators of that policy will be banned from every section but a certain designated one, where they can do as Sedriss suggests. If they violate Sedriss' rules, ban them permanently.

Therefore I shall promptly vote no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ban them.

There are any number of places one can easily go on the internet if he wants to debate Communists (including some quasi-Objectivist forums). What sets this forum apart is that we generally keep it free of anti-rational elements, making it a place where serious students of Objectivism can discuss ideas without having to waste their energy arguing with those who are blatantly irrational. In fact, that was one of the "selling" points you used in your release about the new launch of objectivismonline.net: "Would you like to exchange ideas in a forum that does not tolerate irrationality?"

Keep in mind that when I say ban them, that is a general guideline, not a contextless absolute. We have tolerated a few Libertarians on this board, when they are not trolling but are respectful and seem to be honest and genuinely seeking the truth. Theoretically, similar cases could happen with Communists--but that would be extremely rarely, if ever. Anyone who advocates such ideas is either unfamiliar with the arguments against Communism (as well as ignorant or evasive of the facts about its historical practice), or seriously corrupt. In the former case, we probably can't show them the error of their ways and convert them to a radically different philosophy on this board--the most we can do is refer them to rational works on the topic, such as Rand's writings. And in the latter case, we have no responsibility to provide our enemies with a forum on which to spread their evil ideas, and to do so would seriously diminish the value of this board for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Keep in mind that when I say ban them, that is a general guideline, not a contextless absolute.  We have tolerated a few Libertarians on this board, when they are not trolling but are respectful and seem to be honest and genuinely seeking the truth.  Theoretically, similar cases could happen with Communists--but that would be extremely rarely, if ever.  Anyone who advocates such ideas is either unfamiliar with the arguments against Communism (as well as ignorant or evasive of the facts about its historical practice), or seriously corrupt.  In the former case, we probably can't show them the error of their ways and convert them to a radically different philosophy on this board--the most we can do is refer them to rational works on the topic, such as Rand's writings.  And in the latter case, we have no responsibility to provide our enemies with a forum on which to spread their evil ideas, and to do so would seriously diminish the value of this board for me.

I agree with every word of this. I do not think this should be a forum for communists to present their ideas or to engage in arguments on a topic. I do not think this should be a forum for Objectivists to debate communists. But I do not think this necessitates banning communists--it necessitates banning communists who try to convert people or draw people into arguments. I think it is possible for a communist to ask a question about Objectivism while resisting his urge to pull out the propaganda.

I'm not sure how much of a difference there would be between the two policies. If one knew someone was a communist, it would probably have to be due to the communist's presentation of his own views and drawing people into arguments.

So I'm still opposed to banning all communists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that each case should be taken in context. Communists who post civil remarks that show a slight degree of thought, can serve to help rational thinkers become better at debating their beliefs. Opponents of capitalism who fail to see reason and are militant about it serve no purpose here, and only create an air of hostility.

Perhaps there are some topics in which all communists/irrationalists should be banned, such as discussions of metaphysics and the like. Topics which only serve to educate objectivists would benefit from protection from people who would create an argumentative atmosphere, detrimental to education. Keep the commies confined to topics such as politics and economics, and boot the militant morons. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the purpose of this site is for objectivists and those interested in objectivism to discuss the philosophy in order to grasp it better, I believe those who seem to pursue other behavior (such as promoting another philosophy) should be warned and, if necessary, removed. I would not automatically banish anyone who makes a marxist or communist or collectivist comment. If such individuals are truly interested in objectivism, it does not serve us to dismiss them out of hand. As I have done on many occasions, we can direct such individuals to the proper educational resources. After having done so, if they seem unwilling or uninterested in actually pursuing such avenues, then we can remove them without a second thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was under the impression that basically all a communist did was try to convert people to their philisophic principles. If that's all they do, I see no point to let them post here anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From heusdons posts.

I've encountered numerous posts like his on other philisophical boards. I'm not trying to stereo-type, but it seems to be the main goal of communists. They can't function alone, they need others to further their cause.

I've always thought the term "rational communist" is a contridiction of itself. If they can't be rational, nor have rational conversations, than what purpose do they have here in an objectivist forum?

Other than propogandizing and preaching their philisophical values, I see no reason why they would- nor should-come here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://chrisdavis.typepad.com/blog/2004/03...mportance_.html

I have lots of time to spare. I have little access to philosophy, except through the internet. I have lots of access to internet forums. I have no chance of convincing a single person at Internet Infidels forum (every grade of subjectivist or intrinsicist imaginable is represented there). I don't particularly care about anybody there. I don't know terribly much re Objectivist philosophy, mostly bits and pieces, TF, AS, VOS, CUI, FTNI (alphabet compositions). I've heard debating can force one to sharpen his logic, tighten his concepts and definitions, etc. New knowledge by debate comes excruciatingly slowly. Debating is somewhat fun, though I can think of somewhat "funner" things to do.

Aarg. Choices choices choices. And why do I have this wierd aversion to starting threads myself and an almost perverted desire to piggyback on GC's poll?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't been around long, but here's my $ .02.

Commies can always keep their mouths shut and discuss things within the guidelines of the forum, in which case they'd render themselves fairly unoffensive. If they decide to open their pie-holes and start spouting a lot of trash that everybody's annoyed by, that's their own bloody fault and they should be booted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd ban communists if I could.

It's not possible to be an honets communist, especially in Heusden's case where he was continually talking up the old Soviet Union on the Capitalism magazine site.

If you know that someone is dishonest, what does that say about you that you are prepared to debate with them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you know that someone is dishonest, what does that say about you that you are prepared to debate with them?

The question before us is whether Communists are inherently and irrevocably dishonest. That the vast majority is (especially among academia) - is beyond question. Even if a few are not, should the moderators go through the trouble of trying to sort out the few that may be rational?

Whatever the case, this forum exists for the discussion of Objectivism – so anyone who attempts to use it to promote his particular ideology would be banned by the current policy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Marxism' is far too broad a term, and is pretty much meaningless due to the incredible amount of (often unrelated) beliefs/theories it has come to encompass. I've spoke to self-proclaimed 'Marxists' who placed all over the political/philosophical spectrum, including a few that are almost indistunguishable from laissez faire capitalists other than that they dont think land ownership can be morally justified. Marxism is a fairly complicated web of beliefs that reaches far beyond politics, and although a lot of 'communists' can be found preaching both irrational political systems and altruism, this certainly doesnt apply to all of them, and even less to the belief system as a whole (indeed I would personally say that being a communist isnt even necessary for one to be a Marxist, although in practice the two normally manifest together).

I'd say that posters should be treated on a case-by-case basis. I dont think theres any great need for a a 'no communist' rule; a simple 'no trolls' one should suffice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the "case by case basis" is unecessary and without purpose. It's a waste nof time to sort out who is and who is not a communist. It's not like a communist posing to use objectivist views in his attempt to convert us changes the fact that he is still a communist. It only proves that he is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will simply repeat that I agree with you GC, as well as with circe. I think your statement says it all:

"Whatever the case, this forum exists for the discussion of Objectivism – so anyone who attempts to use it to promote his particular ideology would be banned by the current policy."

I dont think you need anything else besides this policy. It covers everybody, including communists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I saw a forum subject on a pro-Che site (researching the enemy) that had a special section for non-communists and stated that that was the only place where they could post.
sedriss: How nice. The evil tolerates the good.

...almost indistunguishable from laissez faire capitalists other than that they dont think land ownership can be morally justified...

Poohat: Just because you can't tell the difference between shit and shinola, doesn't mean that the two are even remotely similar. Viewed through a pragmatic lens that filters out principles and concepts, I guess the subjective gray concretes all seem indistinguishable. You're right, marxism is much more than politics. It is a systematic denial of reality, reason, man, and especially the individual.

GC: Marxism is the idealogy invented to justify the urge to commit murder on a massive scale. To the extent that an advocate grasps the meaning of this, that is the extent to which he's not only dishonest but vicious. To the extent he doesn't, he is a pretentious and presumptuous fool who deserves nothing less than to have phlegm spit into his face by every decent man he encounters!

metaphysics: reality is a social product, manipulated by the bourgois class to keep down the proletariat class

epistemology: reason is a tool used by the capitalist class to keep down the workers

ethics: selfless duty to serve others

politics: man is a worthless cog in the machine of the State

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need: what on earth will guarantee that the sum of all abilities >= sum of all needs?

Property is theft: concept stealing

Food, clothing, etc. are rights: who will provide them?

communism is the ideal social system: what about the hundreds of millions of people it murdered in USSR, China, southeast Asia, Cuba, Africa, etc?

It is without any redeeming scrap of truth, virtue, merit, or value.

Tolerate it here?!? I am surprised that there is any debate.

P.S. If a murderer barges into your house and sits down at your dinner table. Would you tolerate him if he ate with impeccable manners and said, "please pass the ketchup?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that the "case by case basis" is unecessary and without purpose.  It's a waste nof time to sort out who is and who is not a communist.  It's not like a communist posing to use objectivist views in his attempt to convert us changes the fact that he is still a communist.  It only proves that he is.
What if a 'communist'/marxist is genuinelly interested in Objectivism, or has Objectivist leanings? You make it sound like all internet communists are part of some great Marxist conspiracy aimed at purposely infiltrating and corrupting rational online forums. Some of them are just interested in learning new things and encountering other ideas, and if they have worthwhile questions about Objectivism (or even something on topic to contribute), I dont really get the problem.

You're right, marxism is much more than politics.  It is a systematic denial of reality, reason, man, and especially the individual.
oh ok

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...