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FaSheezy

Hip Hop

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It has been my experience that most Objectivists I have spoken with hold a severe distaste for the genre of music called Hip Hop. Now, I understand your reservations if the only thing you have ever encountered from Hip Hop is, "You's a big fine mutha, won't you back that a$$ up." But come on people, music is just as much a business as anything else. If there is a demand for it, then you will see supply. You cannot judge a category as "good" or "bad"; you have to judge the individuals.

To support my case I submit the lyrics to Eric Benet's "I Know" from his album "Hurricane." I find it particularly beautiful, and the music is a classic example of Hip Hop. I figure maybe I can lure you into actually listening to it if I can get you to appreciate the beauty of its lyrics.

Some say that change won't come

We'll never live as one

They say it can't be done

But I know better

They say there'll be more rain

They say there'll be more pain

But the sun's gonna shine again

And I know for sho'

If you really, really wanna you could touch the sky

Don't let them tell you you can't fly that high

Anything you want you just go out and try

'Cause I know, I know, I know

They say the end is near

And they say it's almost here

But I say to have no fear

I know, it's not so

Some say that love's just a myth

It's a wonderful dream but it doesn't exist

But to look at you you're such a precious gift

That I know, I know

If you really, really wanna you could touch the sky

Don't let them tell you you can't fly that high

Anything you want you just go out and try

'Cause I know, I know, I know

And if you really, really want it, it could be that way

Don't get caught up in what them people say

All your little dreams turn into bigger things

I know, I know

I know, I just know

That I know

Oh

The seeds you sowed determine what you grow

The road you take determines where you're gonna go

And when you feel it deep inside your soul

You'll know, you'll know

If you really, really wanna you could touch the sky

Don't let them tell you you can't fly that high

Anything you want you just go out and try

'Cause I know, I know, I know

That if you really, really want it, it could be that way

Don't get caught up in what them people say

All your little dreams turn into bigger things

I know, I know

(Before I hear anyone say, "What's all this, "I just know stuff? Is this primacy of consciousness?" No! Preceding this song on the album are a bunch of "I've made my mistakes, now I can see my errors, I have to care about myself first" kind of songs. So there. :thumbsup: )

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Alot of members of the White upper class take isssue with Hip Hop as it goes against the very grain of high brow poerty and verse - it is non-structured free verse. Keep in mind that for centuries there were extensive rules governing the form (14 lines in Shakepeare's day) and content (love in the 1500's, Classics in the 1600's, etc.) of poetry and verse. Hip Hop's emphasis on improvision and free form challenge the very core of what has been accepted.

Of course one could also argue that despite the improvision Hip Hop has a set of rules such as instrumentation and rhyme in which case I would restate my position slightly differently - that verse and poetry don't move smoothly from one style to the next but by violently breaking out of previous molds.

Also many of you have no doubt taken justifiable offense to my use of the term "White" earlier. I did this for a reason as Hip Hop was/is(?) the music of the non-privilaged racial and economic groups in the US and therefore is seen as carrying "undesirable" values into the privilaged segments of american society (particularly to the young). Also it critiques (or at least used to critique) the values and behaviours of the upper class (such as Tupac being hated for pointing out the rampant police corruption around him, and the fact that Tupac had extensive links to Black seperatist movements).

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It has been my experience that most Objectivists I have spoken with hold a severe distaste for the genre of music called Hip Hop. .... But come on people, music is just as much a business as anything else. If there is a demand for it, then you will see supply. You cannot judge a category as "good" or "bad"; you have to judge the individuals.

I don't think you can really tell people, particularly Objectivists, how to judge things for themselves. The question an Objectivist would ask about the value of "hip-hop" is - "of what value and to whom?"

The answer to that question for many of the Objectivists of which you speak is probably - of NO value TO me. Whether or not there is a business for it is not a valid criteria for it's value to any given person. There's a market for cocaine, but cocaine as a recreational drug is still BAD for ME.

Also many of you have no doubt taken justifiable offense to my use of the term "White" earlier. I did this for a reason as Hip Hop was/is(?) the music of the non-privilaged racial and economic groups in the US and therefore is seen as carrying "undesirable" values into the privilaged segments of american society (particularly to the young). Also it critiques (or at least used to critique) the values and behaviours of the upper class (such as Tupac being hated for pointing out the rampant police corruption around him, and the fact that Tupac had extensive links to Black seperatist movements).

Actually, I think you would find more people on here taking offense to your use of the terms "privileged" and "non-priveleged". How do people get to be "privileged" or "non-privileged"? What does that mean anyway?

Edited by RationalCop

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I did this for a reason as Hip Hop was/is(?) the music of the non-privilaged racial and economic groups in the US and therefore is seen as carrying "undesirable" values into the privilaged segments of american society (particularly to the young). Also it critiques (or at least used to critique) the values and behaviours of the upper class (such as Tupac being hated for pointing out the rampant police corruption around him, and the fact that Tupac had extensive links to Black seperatist movements).

In addition to RC's point, I will add that most Objectivists have the good sense not to evaluate music or anything else on the basis of irrelevant criteria such as one's membership in a racial or economic group. Additionally, I doubt you will see here many objections to Tupac on the basis of any condemnation of police corruption.

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I don't think you can really tell people, particularly Objectivists, how to judge things for themselves. The question an Objectivist would ask about the value of "hip-hop" is - "of what value and to whom?"

The answer to that question for many of the Objectivists of which you speak is probably - of NO value TO me. Whether or not there is a business for it is not a valid criteria for it's value to any given person. There's a market for cocaine, but cocaine as a recreational drug is still BAD for ME.

I was not saying that just because there is a business for it that gives it value. My point was that as a business it will meet demands set for it by the public, and since some people want to hear crap hip hop it will exist, but that doesn't mean you should hate HIP HOP. It means you should hate the people who make BAD hip hop.

I'm not trying to tell you HOW to judge it, I'm trying to get some of you to open your friggin ears and listen to something that MIGHT have value to you and not disregard something when you've never given it a chance. That is not rational.

The value of good music is the fact that it is good music, and it would be a value to those of you who like to enjoy good things. Broadening your horizons is always a good thing. Learn, grow.

On second thought, Eric Benet is actually Rythmn and Blues. But the point stands that it is good. Just hoped to change a few misconceptions on music some of you have probably never heard and already judged as bad for reasons which are untrue.

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I love hip-hop, especially the early to mid-ninety's version, and especially Tupac. And I am proudly a [W]hite man. It feels good to be one of the "privileged". You are right though, that I don't like when he started on a tangent about racist "black" issues. That is kind of annoying but he more than makes up for it in his ability to flow a rhyme like no man accept Eminem has ever approached.

To anyone that doesn't think hip-hop and R&B can show values in a positive light in their music, they need to sit and listen to Em's Lose Yourself or Destiny's Child's Survivor

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Tupac was talking about what it was like to be black and how it feels to receive such rampant racism from everyone around you. Some of it is going a bit too far, but he was rapping about things that did exist in his world.

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I'm not trying to tell you HOW to judge it, I'm trying to get some of you to open your friggin ears and listen to something that MIGHT have value to you and not disregard something when you've never given it a chance. That is not rational. . . .

Just hoped to change a few misconceptions on music some of you have probably never heard and already judged as bad for reasons which are untrue.

In keeping with the theme of the thread, you need to slow your roll. Do you have some specific post from this forum to which you are addressing your comments? If so, then you need to quote that so we know to what specifically you object. Whose friggin ears need to be opened? Who has disregarded what? Who hasn't given something a chance? Who has misconceptions? In your opening post, you refer to "most Objectivists I have spoken with." Are they members of this forum? Which ones, and what specifically did they say?

You have asserted that certain people are irrational and offered no evidence beyond generalized assumptions. For example, (paraphrasing) "You have never heard something but have judged it" is an assertion of irrationality. In addition to the irony of these comments (chastising people for making generalized assumptions, the evidence for which you offer consisting of generalized assumptions), they are both dumb and prohibited by the forum rules. (See (2)(b ) under prohibited behavior.) Take it easy.

I love hip-hop, especially the early to mid-ninety's version, and especially Tupac.

I'm partial to that era, too, particularly Dre and Snoop Dogg. Of the newer acts, I like Eminem and DMX.

Em's Lose Yourself

Check the sig, baby, yeah! :thumbsup:

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I'm sorry for sounding overly hostile. The people I spoke with were from the chat room. I do not remember their names. I didn't want to point them out specifically, but I did want to put something out for them to read. I've given my two cents now and will quit badgering everybody.

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I'm not trying to tell you HOW to judge it, I'm trying to get some of you to open your friggin ears and listen to something that MIGHT have value to you and not disregard something when you've never given it a chance. That is not rational.

I don't care for most rap, although I do like some of it. The reason isn't because I haven't given it a chance, it's because I simply don't find most of it creative. I am a big fan of techno, and one thing I've noticed about "hip-hop" and rap is that a significant amount of it is nothing more than 80's techno songs with rapping added on top of it. Now, adapting an existing song isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not very creative. I enjoy 70's and early 80's techno because it was creative. It went completely against the grain of mainstream music. To me, most rap sounds recycled. There are very few innovative rap artists. In a way, I think hip hop is similar to television: no one is willing to take a risk and try something new and creative. It's always the same basic thing over and over again.

That's not to say that there aren't any creative rap artists. I do like Eminem, Slick Rick, Dr. Dre, and a few others, but I would consider them nothing more than rare anomalies in the world of hip hop. When 99% of the new music put out by the recording industry shares the same basic lyrics, there is a problem. Oh, and then there is the fact that half of them don't even write their own lyrics. Have you ever seen Jessica Simpson/Brittney Spears/Christena Agulara off stage before? Do you honestly believe that people like that are able to write songs? Jessica Simpson can barely string a whole sentence together!

That being said (sorry for the rant :thumbsup: ) when this style first came out in the 80's (?) it was creative. It was completely new and went against the grain of mainstream rock of the time. But since then it has stagnated and very little creativity has come out of it for the last ten years.

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[Edit: This first part is directed at FaSheezy. Skap was kind enough to post something as I was typing this, totally disrupting my flow. Putting your thoughts out, Skap? What gall! :thumbsup: ]

I appreciate your apology. My objections to your particular wording aside, I do agree with you that some people do rush to judgments without adequate information. And while it's good for you to quit "badgering," I certainly don't think you should shut up altogether. I'm interested to hear your comments about what aspects of hip hop you think are good and why. A good argument goes a long way.

Oh, and then there is the fact that half of them don't even write their own lyrics. Have you ever seen Jessica Simpson/Brittney Spears/Christena Agulara off stage before? Do you honestly believe that people like that are able to write songs? Jessica Simpson can barely string a whole sentence together!

I don't understand holding it against someone that they don't write lyrics. Writing abilities and singing abilities are two different skill sets, and ought to be evaluated as such. I wouldn't hold it against a good actor that he couldn't write a movie, against a good quarterback that he couldn't kick a field goal, etc. Why do you link singing ability and writing ability in your evaluation?

Edited by Groovenstein

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I'm not trying to tell you HOW to judge it, I'm trying to get some of you to open your friggin ears and listen to something that MIGHT have value to you and not disregard something when you've never given it a chance. That is not rational.

I must belabor the point already addressed by Groovenstein. Your lack of specificity as to who needs to open their friggin' ears is what leads some folks to take offense. Not knowing that you had specific people in mind suggests that others out there haven't already listened to some hip-hop and made informed decisions as to why that musical style was not preferable to them. Likewise, once sampled and set aside, it IS rational not to desire to sample any other music of that same style when there may be other pursuits of interest of higher priority for a person. There are a lot of experiences people haven't tried out there yet, and I'm not going to hold it against someone or call them irrational if they don't put hip-hop on the top of their "must do" list.

Now oddly enough, I have recently downloaded Eninem's "Curtain Call (Deluxe Explicit)" from iTunes. I find a certain fascination with SOME of his music, a fascination which I haven't fully reasoned out yet. But generally speaking, I have no interest in any rapper who wants to sing to me about the glory (or tragedy) of the thug life. I get to see a lot of "thug life" in the real world and I don't find it that interesting or glamorous.

[Edit - Fixed Double Negative - RC]

Edited by RationalCop

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As mentioned above, I have recently started listening to some of Eminem's music. I'm trying to figure out exactly what fascinates me about this guy's music. I'm sure the movie "8 Mile" lead me to try his music as I was surprised how much I liked the movie. Most of the songs that I like seem to be the one's that appear to be dealing specifically with his life. Some of those songs are "Cleanin' out my closet", "Like Tin Soldiers", "Lose Yourself", "The Way I Am", "Sing for the Moment", "When I'm Gone", etc. He seems to blame a lot of his grief on his mother (and to some degree his father). But then he also has a self-reflective quality in which he seems to recognize that he can't always blame his problems on other people. He appears to have some ambivalent value struggle going on between his music and his daughter.

Other songs that I like that seem less autobiographical are "Stan" and "Guilty Conscience". I think I like the way he phrases some things, the way he tells some stories, and some of the stories themselves. "Stan" benefits from the backdrop of the Dido song, "Thank You". "Stan" also reminds of me of Falco's song "Jeanny", though Eminem smacks you over the head in his song. There's no doubt in your mind that Stan has "issues". There's some mystery to the character singing in "Jeanny", but you're pretty sure he's a psycho.

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I'm not a fan of rap per se. I don't like the in-your-face attitude of it, nor do I think it's musically very good. But, my biggest problem with it is the in-your-face part.

StarBuck wrote:

Also many of you have no doubt taken justifiable offense to my use of the term "White" earlier.

The phrase "white upper class" is both racist and socialist in the way you use it. It demeans people because they are white and devalues them in the worst way. It's as bad as racism against blacks. It also devalues them because they are achievers ("upper class"). I'm not saying you intended this, but that's what it amounts to.

This discussion is mindful of a larger issue. I've been thinking about how rock music has changed over the last 40+ years. When I look at it, I note a massive sense of life shift in it. Think about some 1950s, early 1960s rock music. The Beach Boys, Elvis Presley, Chubby Checker, et.al. The sense of life of that music was very positive. Very American. I think this really shifted circa the time of the Beatles. At that time music became far more cynical, and destructive. I'm not saying all popular music is that way, but lots of it is, and it really wasn't that way prior. I also get the sense that this nihilistic, destructive sense of life is still growing.

I even apply this to country music, which seems to stress misery more than anything, though I haven't listened to enough of it to make a fully informed evaluation.

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RC, I think what it is that you might like in those songs (and they are among my favorites too) is that he presents a highly stylized and essentialized version of his life in lyrical form. It's in black and white. He's saying this is me in a dramatic and over-the-top way, take it or leave it. He may not present himself as a hero, but he presents himself as independent and intelligent guy struggling for values (even if he's confused at time to what those values are). And he does it in a way no other rapper alive today can match.

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This discussion is mindful of a larger issue. I've been thinking about how rock music has changed over the last 40+ years. When I look at it, I note a massive sense of life shift in it. Think about some 1950s, early 1960s rock music. The Beach Boys, Elvis Presley, Chubby Checker, et.al. The sense of life of that music was very positive. Very American. I think this really shifted circa the time of the Beatles. At that time music became far more cynical, and destructive. I'm not saying all popular music is that way, but lots of it is, and it really wasn't that way prior. I also get the sense that this nihilistic, destructive sense of life is still growing.

I even apply this to country music, which seems to stress misery more than anything, though I haven't listened to enough of it to make a fully informed evaluation.

That kind of rock music is still being played and recorded. I think people have it in their heads that music is some form of sending messages and expressing one's opinions, as if writing had not yet come into being, and they are modern day Homers. I just bought the Yayhoos today. Straight rock that you can tap your foot to; no big issues about FEEDING THE CHILDREN OF BANGLADESH!, or MY FATHER DIDN'T LOVE ME!

I don't have a clue as to the modern state of country music (has it improved since Garth and Billy Ray pooped all over it?). But it was always pretty miserable, but not 100%

I have heard enough of rap and hip hop to know that I hate it in every aspect. I hate the lack of melodies, harmonies, the focus on the "beat". I hate the fact that it is mainly non-instrumental, and usually consists of ripped pieces of others music. I hate the sense of life of all of it I have heard. Although this is only expressed in the words since the "music" itself is largely incapable of evoking emotion as music is supposed to do.

Another thing that I hate, and is being shared more and more in rock music, is lyrics that are about that particular person and their particular problems and experiences, or pumping themselves up as the best mc (or bv, gh, jk, or whatever graffiti inspired acroynm they call themselves by). Thank goodness novelists and movie makers haven't resorted to this utterly boring subject matter.

Fictional conversation

George Lucas: Steven, I have this idea for a giant space opera for a movie.

Steven Speilberg: Nah, man you should make a movie about how you got all over those other bitches, man.

George Lucas: Ya! That's a great idea. Are you still making that movie about how your daddy left you and your mom for hoes?

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RC, I think what it is that you might like in those songs (and they are among my favorites too) is that he presents a highly stylized and essentialized version of his life in lyrical form.

I would say that's pretty close. :P

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I even apply this to country music, which seems to stress misery more than anything, though I haven't listened to enough of it to make a fully informed evaluation.

One of the things I like about a lot of blues music is that it is about misery. However, the blues songs I generally like are about how the artists (or the characters in there music) overcome that misery (the blues) and strive to find hapiness in their lives, if only through their music. In contrast, one of things I don't like about a lot of rap is the opposite thing occurs. Many rappers sing about misery (and blame) and use that to justify why they succumb to the misery by going "gangsta". In other words, I gotta a crappy life and I'm going to perpetuate it.

From an instrumental point of view, another reason I like the blues is because much of it showcases the guitar. Not a lot of guitar in rap music. Some of my favorite blues artists are Stevie Ray Vaughan, Robert Cray, BB King, and Eric Clapton. Cray has several songs I like that concentrate on moral dilemnas and consequences.

Edited by RationalCop

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That kind of rock music is still being played and recorded. I think people have it in their heads that music is some form of sending messages and expressing one's opinions, as if writing had not yet come into being, and they are modern day Homers. I just bought the Yayhoos today. Straight rock that you can tap your foot to;

When I think about some of those Beach Boys songs, I'm thinking chix on the beach and fun. You also get the feeling your future is bright, the sky is the limit, and the world is worth living in.

no big issues about FEEDING THE CHILDREN OF BANGLADESH!, or MY FATHER DIDN'T LOVE ME!
Right, there's too much of that stuff. There is room for some of it, but it is way over done.

I have heard enough of rap and hip hop to know that I hate it in every aspect. I hate the lack of melodies, harmonies, the focus on the "beat". I hate the fact that it is mainly non-instrumental, and usually consists of ripped pieces of others music. I hate the sense of life of all of it I have heard. Although this is only expressed in the words since the "music" itself is largely incapable of evoking emotion as music is supposed to do.

I guess I'm disappointed that it's popular, but, then again, I know that heavy metal at its worst is probably worse in terms of sense of life. Guns and Roses, how many stages have they torn down? I dislike mindlessness in any of its forms.

To be clear, there’s a lot of rock music I like. You can often find an aspect of a song you like, the lyrics or melody, say, even if you don’t like the whole work. I’m just focusing on the general trend in music, which I think is bad.

Fictional conversation

George Lucas: Steven, I have this idea for a giant space opera for a movie.

Steven Speilberg: Nah, man you should make a movie about how you got all over those other bitches, man.

George Lucas: Ya! That's a great idea. Are you still making that movie about how your daddy left you and your mom for hoes?

That's pretty cute, actually. Good use of satire. :P

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One of the things I like about a lot of blues music is that it is about misery. However, the blues songs I generally like are about how the artists (or the characters in there music) overcome that misery (the blues) and strive to find hapiness in their lives, if only through their music. In contrast, one of things I don't like about a lot of rap is the opposite thing occurs. Many rappers sing about misery (and blame) and use that to justify why they succumb to the misery by going "gangsta". In other words, I gotta a crappy life and I'm going to perpetuate it.

Good idea broadening the scope to the blues. I'm not a big fan of the blues, per se, exactly because of the misery factor, but I do enjoy listening to it for a while. It's far better music than rap in almost every way. My favorite blues performer has to be Louis Armstrong. Why? Because he was very non-blues in sense of life. I believe he's credited with being the inventor of jazz, but don't quote me on that. Ever heard "It's a Wonderful World" as sung by Armstrong? His voice isn't great, but the song somehow evokes incredibly positive emotions in me.

I get the same sense about rap you get. The idea is not to break out, but to wallow and point fingers of blame. My real problem with it is the in-your-face aspect. Unfortunately, I think that's where it gets its power as a music.

From an instrumental point of view, another reason I like the blues is because much of it showcases the guitar. Not a lot of guitar in rap music. Some of my favorite blues artists are Stevie Ray Vaughan, Robert Cray, BB King, and Eric Clapton. Cray has several songs I like that concentrate on moral dilemnas and consequences.

I'm not really familiar with Cray, but the others are definitely good. Stevie Ray is really a mixture of blues/rock and a superb guitarist. I enjoy listening to him. I don't really think his music is sad like blues music was 100 years ago. It's quite different. I think blues today has a more cerebral and laid back aspect to it that makes it fun to listen to. Sometimes it seems to say to you "Hey, look what I can play. Isn't this fun?"

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It's hard to dance to sixteenth triplet runs in 11/8.

A "beat" is fine. But if all you are going to do is cut and paste and loop a beat made on a machine, add in overbearing bass tones, and then talk endlessly to me over it, you haven't acheived music.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that that form is not capable of producing something that I would like (or incapable of having something in common with music besides a time signature). But, clearly, its modern practitioners are not going to do it. Its been dead in the progress department for years anyway. And it would demand a total rethinking of the entire genre. Something most "musicians" are no longer capable of.

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That's not to say that there aren't any creative rap artists. I do like Eminem, Slick Rick, Dr. Dre, and a few others, but I would consider them nothing more than rare anomalies in the world of hip hop. When 99% of the new music put out by the recording industry shares the same basic lyrics, there is a problem. Oh, and then there is the fact that half of them don't even write their own lyrics.
Perhaps you were changing "them" to refer to a more inclusive group, but most rappers do write their own lyrics.

I have recently started listening to some of Eminem's music... Most of the songs that I like seem to be the one's that appear to be dealing specifically with his life.
You might like "Mockingbird" too. BTW according to news, he is apparently reconciling/remarrying his ex.

I get the same sense about rap you get. The idea is not to break out, but to wallow and point fingers of blame. My real problem with it is the in-your-face aspect. Unfortunately, I think that's where it gets its power as a music.
What do you mean by "in-your-face?"

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that that form is not capable of producing something that I would like (or incapable of having something in common with music besides a time signature). But, clearly, its modern practitioners are not going to do it. Its been dead in the progress department for years anyway. And it would demand a total rethinking of the entire genre. Something most "musicians" are no longer capable of.
That seems unnecessarily harsh. Definition of "music" semantics aside, the "beat" is just frosting on the cake; the lyrics are the real artistry. And there has been progress in that respect.

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You might like "Mockingbird" too. BTW according to news, he is apparently reconciling/remarrying his ex.

I like it well enough. It's on "Curtain Call" as well. In fact, the iTunes album came with 7 bonus songs not on the CD release including a second version of "Stan" performed with Elton John. I seemed to recall some hub-bub about the irony of him performing with Elton John considering some of the stuff he said about homosexuals in his earlier songs. However, I was surprised "Superman" wasn't on the album.

Maybe some maturity and reason can help with his efforts to reconcile with his ex (and perhaps other areas in his life with which he is/was confused).

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