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How Times Have Changed

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Originally posted by Paul from NoodleFood,

I've been listening to Leonard Peikoff's excellent lecture course "Understanding Objectivism", and I was struck by his assessment of the state of religion in the US back in 1983:

Now almost nobody is religious today in the way it was once the rule to be. The whole West in the medieval period was tremendously religious and today the most religious zealot in the United States would have been drummed out in the Middle Ages because he would be hopelessly tainted with secularism.

So religious is a dying phenomenon and I must confess I feel a certain sympathy or sorrow -- not sorrow -- but like I feel sorry for the way that these people are historically on the way out. Religion is fading all the time, so it's not that big a factor in most people's lives. It's a casual utterance which they don't really act on, although in some people absolutely it's a real factor.

("Judging Intellectual Honesty", Lecture 11, CD track 5, time index 3:22)

Of course, since that time Peikoff has significantly revised his position. In his also-excellent "DIM Hypothesis" course, given in 2004, he makes a persuasive argument that religion poses the most significant (and still rapidly-growing) philosophical danger to the United States, far more than the discredited ideas of the secular leftists/collectivists.

It's amazing how much things have changed in 20 years.

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Religion routinely defeated? That is not true. There have been some defeats, as in some "Intelligent Design" (ID) cases; but even those beg the question of why some people backtracked from logic to ID insanity in the first place. Overall, in the U.S., hasn't the last couple of decades seen an increase in the "right"? Don't these people typically espouse views that are more religious than the "average"?

It is not a simple question of counting numbers; it is also an issue of the type of religion. Even if there's a slight decline in the overall number of people who (say) go to church, if their commitment to religion increases significantly, and they start to take their religion much more seriously, they become activists for their religious causes, where previously it was not a determining factor.

Weighing socialism against religion is a separate issue, but surely religion has been growing rather than shrinking in the US.

On socialism too, the picture is mixed. However, I would question whether the US is becoming more socialist; the world surely isn't; I don't think the US is either. Further, the Bushes of the world are no help in that regard. For every move forward, they subtract with things like the ADA and "No Child Left Behind".

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Religion routinely defeated? That is not true. There have been some defeats, as in some "Intelligent Design" (ID) cases; but even those beg the question of why some people backtracked from logic to ID insanity in the first place. Overall, in the U.S., hasn't the last couple of decades seen an increase in the "right"? Don't these people typically espouse views that are more religious than the "average"?

It is not a simple question of counting numbers; it is also an issue of the type of religion. Even if there's a slight decline in the overall number of people who (say) go to church, if their commitment to religion increases significantly, and they start to take their religion much more seriously, they become activists for their religious causes, where previously it was not a determining factor.

Weighing socialism against religion is a separate issue, but surely religion has been growing rather than shrinking in the US.

On socialism too, the picture is mixed. However, I would question whether the US is becoming more socialist; the world surely isn't; I don't think the US is either. Further, the Bushes of the world are no help in that regard. For every move forward, they subtract with things like the ADA and "No Child Left Behind".

It's true that more right-wingers are in office nowadays, but they have been unsuccessful in pushing their religious agenda into law. I'll remind you of Roy Moore...he was removed from office because he refused to obey a court order to remove the 10 commandments. Terri Schiavo was another defeat for the religious right. The only victory I recall them having in recent years is the ban on partial birth abortion, but that is before the Supreme Court right now, so we'll have to wait and see.

And how is the US not becoming more socialist? The early 2000's saw quite a spate of anti-corporate court cases...insider trading, anti-trust violations, and the like. Socialized medicine is on its way, with help from both parties. The gulf coast hurricanes were a perfect demonstration of socialism, since the evacuees were just now finally kicked out of their hotels. While Bush's social security privatization plan may not have been perfect, it wasn't rejected for that reason. It was rejected because legislators and the American people believe that they have a right to social security. I think this speaks volumes.

There is no dichotomy between religion and socialism.

I never claimed that there was; I just said that socialism is a worse threat. I absolutely think both are a threat, but socialism is currently more of one.

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I really don't understand how someone can consider religion a greater threat than socialism. This country is moving rapidly towards socialism, yet religion is routinely defeated in the government, especially the court system.

Do you know that the House and the Senate of South Dakota have passed an anti-abortion bill that bans abortion even in cases or rape and incest?

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During the recent cartoon jihad, a number of conservative commentators have stressed the importance of the separation of church and state. This is not entirely new, but it's nevertheless welcome to see.

Of course, if the right stops trying to regulate private actions, they may turn on the economy and try to beat the left on its own terms. :dough:

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Do you know that the House and the Senate of South Dakota have passed an anti-abortion bill that bans abortion even in cases or rape and incest?

Yes. Do you think that's going to be signed by the governor? If so, do you think it will hold up in court? The people who passed that bill know damned well that it won't work. They're just testing the judicial waters to see what will happen. I fully expect to see another victory for secularism and a resounding defeat for the religious right.

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Yes. Do you think that's going to be signed by the governor? If so, do you think it will hold up in court? The people who passed that bill know damned well that it won't work. They're just testing the judicial waters to see what will happen. I fully expect to see another victory for secularism and a resounding defeat for the religious right.

I believe the Governor will sign it. I don't believe it will stand the court though it might. Either way, it is a sign that the religious right is rising and needs to be defeated.

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Once again, I am not debating that the religious right is a threat. Yet, we are both able to say with about 90% certainty that this measure will not make it through the courts. SCOTUS would almost certainly overturn it. Given that the courts rule against the religious right in areas of abortion, ID, the 10 commandments, and "the right to life" (Schiavo), all the while ruling FOR eminent domain, do you really think that socialism is not a larger threat?

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  • 4 weeks later...
And how is the US not becoming more socialist?
I suppose it depends on what period one uses for comparison. There are some parts of the economy where the government interferes more and other parts where they back off. There are still other parts where conventional socialism is replaced by the fascist type. Overall, it's my sense that conventional socialism is in retreat all over the world, including in the U.S. I think it has suffered an intellectual defeat and shown to be bankrupt, with it's adherents scared to be labeled "liberals".

The early 2000's saw quite a spate of anti-corporate court cases. ... Socialized medicine is on its way,.... The gulf coast hurricanes were a perfect demonstration of socialism,... Bush's social security privatization plan ... wasn't rejected for that reason.
Let me address these points:

  • Guliani sent Milken to jail in the 80's for so-called corporate crimes; so, while the recent Sarbane-Oxley stuff is bad, but it's an incremental tightening.
  • Socialized medicine increasing? Do you mean Medicare Drugs? How about MSAs? and now HCAs?
  • Social security: I don't see any back-tracking here. If anything, there's a growing disenchantment with the system, with the younger generation assuming that it may not be there for them.

On the other hand, consider some of the positives:

  • The 1986 tax reform reduced taxes quite drastically
  • School reform has been as slow as molasses, but the direction has been good
  • Unions are in retreat, and when GM collapses or reforms will be even more so
  • HCAs, already mentioned above
  • Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that welfare reform during the Clinton years had positive results

Needless to say, there were negatives you didn't mention: pro-environmentalist legislation of all types have been increasing steadily.

One can make lists of the good and the bad and try to weigh them. However, I think the overriding trend over the last five or six decades is this: people have more or less accepted that socialism does not work.

The bad news is this: the underlying idea of the purpose of government is still unchallenged. Only, now people think that diluting socialism with a bit of "market-forces" might do the trick. The danger is that the conventional socialists, calling for a lot of overt government ownership and control will be replaced by a more fascist breed who want to pay lip service to "the market" by allowing more private ownership on paper, while placing all sorts of controls in it's way [witness California's electricity "deregulation"].

It seems to me that the U.S. is going through a period where the ideology of the left has been hurt and nihilism abounds. What will come next? I don't know. I do know that the Republicans don't have any more answers than the Democrats: witness this president's performance on health, schools and overall spending.

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A quick clarification to my previous post...

While the political situation in the US is in a limbo, the same is not true in other parts of the world. This has positive effects on our lives. Also, in the U.S. businessmen and inventors continue producing more than ever before.

The bottom line is that, despite the U.S. politicians, with every passing year, our lives are filled with more and more values.

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