MicroBalrog Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I was looking to find more Israeli libertarian/objectivist/free-market people, and it seems there are some here. I am considering organising some libertarian/objectivist activism group here in Israel - perhaps some of the Objectivism Online Israelis can help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wrath Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) Shalom. I think you're the only Israeli here though. It's always nice to get people with different perspectives on world politics, especially from the tiny strip of land that seems to be the source of all the world's problems. That's not intended to blame Israel for anything...just pointing out that that geographical region is the reason for quite a few problems. What part of Israel are you from? Welcome to the forum. [A forum search shows 7 Israeli members. -GC] Edited August 8, 2006 by GreedyCapitalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroBalrog Posted March 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Ashdod, if that matters to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wrath Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 It doesn't really matter, I suppose. Just curious. Wouldn't want you to be from Sederot, for safety's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Actually, there have been times when we've had quite a number of posts from Israeli IPs. But posters tend to come and go. As you'll no doubt soon learn, we aren't big fans of the Libertarian Party here (to say the least), but we love Objectivism and free markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wrath Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 He used "libertarian" with a small L. I think that Objectivist politics are most accurately described as libertarian, just so long as you use the small L so that there is no equation with the politics of the Libertarian Party. Even so, he's from Israel and is probably not all that familiar with the American LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroBalrog Posted March 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I am familiar with them - read L.Neil Smith's writing as well as Vin's. I actually agree with a lot they say, but they are a bunch of inept suckers, IMNSCO. I can elaborate if anybody cares, but basically... ew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I actually agree with a lot they say, but they are a bunch of inept suckers, IMNSCO. We all agree with a lot they say, which is no wonder given that their founder, Murray Rothbard, basically plagiarized Ayn Rand's ideas as far as the field of domestic politics is concerned. But their implicit philosophy is completely at odds with Objectivism at the fundamental level--that of metaphysics. As I wrote on another thread back when, the basis of Objectivism is acceptance of reality, while the basis of Libertarianism is defiance of reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroBalrog Posted March 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 I don't really understand that... I mean, don't Objectivists believe that the motives for one's actions matter less then the result? If I were pushing a rock, and you came and pushed it with me, the rock would move regardless of why you pushed it. The problem with the USLP is not - IMHO - their motivations, it's their acts that are horribly inept and silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 ...don't Objectivists believe that the motives for one's actions matter less then the result?Well, think about a non-political example... A kid doing his math homework makes a couple of errors. "Fortunately" they offset each other and he comes up with the "right" answer. Is his answer really right? He's getting the right answer so why care how he got it? What will happen when he tries to do the next few math problems; can we expect the right answer each time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 I The problem with the USLP is not - IMHO - their motivations, it's their acts that are horribly inept and silly. Their acts are horribly inept and silly precisely because their motivations are bad; it is the nature of their motivations to prevent them from actually seeing the nature of reality and responding in kind. Supporting the LP means you are supporting their bad motivations by enabling them to avoid the consequences in reality by, perhaps, advising them on how to improve their methods and how to appear more mainstream than they actually are. However it's the evil among them that benefits from this policy, not you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroBalrog Posted March 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Their acts are horribly inept and silly precisely because their motivations are bad; it is the nature of their motivations to prevent them from actually seeing the nature of reality and responding in kind. Supporting the LP means you are supporting their bad motivations by enabling them to avoid the consequences in reality by, perhaps, advising them on how to improve their methods and how to appear more mainstream than they actually are. However it's the evil among them that benefits from this policy, not you. Define supporting the LP, please. Does "supporting the LP" mean "giving money to the LNC appartus"? Then yes, you are right, giving the LNC money perpetuates their sillyness. Does "supporting the LP' mean "voting for them"? If there was a Libertarian candidate that stood a chance of winning, wouldn't you hold your nose and vote for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Does "supporting the LP' mean "voting for them"? No, you can vote for a party without actually supporting them. If there was a Libertarian candidate that stood a chance of winning, wouldn't you hold your nose and vote for him? Personally, I wouldn't. Not as long as the main challenge facing America is how to defeat Islamism, which Libertarians are perfectly unwilling to do. Besides, I doubt there will ever be a Libertarian candidate with a chance to gain more than a single-digit percentage of the vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifat Glassman Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 I was looking to find more Israeli libertarian/Objectivist/free-market people, and it seems there are some here. I am considering organising some libertarian/Objectivist activism group here in Israel - perhaps some of the Objectivism Online Israelis can help? I'm from Israel, I live in Haifa, I'm a student. Seems like you haven't been active for months in the forum, Anyway, it was very fun to meet someone from Israel here. MA NISHMA? hehehe!! Recently I discovered a great web-site about Objectivism in Hebrew: אנכי, it has coverage of current events, translation of some articles from the ARI, some articles about Objectivism, all in Hebrew (Isn't that a great relief?), you might find it useful. As for clubs - naa, I don't have time for it, except now, with the war in Lebanon. I have plenty of time now Anyway hope to see you participate in the threads discussing Israel. It should be fun to see what a fellow Israeli thinks of things that are going on in Israel & neighbors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaszloWalrus Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 Another problem with the phrase "Libertarian" is that it encompasses a HUGE variety of political positions. There is the American Libertarian Party type, who upholds capitalism on irrational grounds; there is the "anarcho-capitalist" Rothbard type, who wants to destroy freedom and upholds gang warfare; there is the original meaning of Libertarian, which was an anarchist/socialist position akin to what Noam Chomsky advocates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tps_fan Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) I don't really understand that... I mean, don't Objectivists believe that the motives for one's actions matter less then the result? If I were pushing a rock, and you came and pushed it with me, the rock would move regardless of why you pushed it. The problem with the USLP is not - IMHO - their motivations, it's their acts that are horribly inept and silly. Objectivists _very much_ believe in the power and importance of motives. Motives are the reasons guiding a person to action, and those reasons are contextual. Here's an example comparing two possible voters: A Libertarian and a Republican might have both voted for John Kerry in the last Presidential election, but they could have different reasons. There are some Libertarians who oppose American self-defense due to "killing innocents." On the other hand, a Republican might very well have voted for John Kerry (to oppose George Bush) because GB didn't do enough for American self-defense. American gov't still fails to deal with the root cause of Islamic threats to peaceful countries. The root cause is Muslim state sponsorship of terrorism in ideology (thought) and paramilitary and military attacks (practice). The motives of the voters in the above case are completely different, yet they would be voting the same way. Why does this matter? It matters because these actions aren't happening in a social vacuum. These same two people will likely vote on other issues, they will discuss their politics with other people, they have different systems of thought giving rise to different conclusions. The Libertarian Party is rife with people who fundamentally disagree, so it's no surprise that people have a hard time trying to figure out what the LP is actually _for_. As for an actual alternative... Some Objectivists work and hope to educate people so that eventually the Republican Party will become more consistent with Capitalist theory. That's a long way off, but it may be one of the better long-term options. It's _certainly_ better than supporting the Libertarian party! Edited August 11, 2006 by tps_fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olex Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 As for an actual alternative... I would check ARI website, where they outline their goal, approach, and progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 Recently I discovered a great web-site about Objectivism in Hebrew: אנכי, [...]all in Hebrew (Isn't that a great relief?) Hi Ifat, There is also an "Objectivism" blog, which discusses the blogger`s interpretation of the concept "Objectivism". http://israblog.nana.co.il/blogread.asp?blog=102337 If you are interested in reading the archives of a very prolific Objectivism forum that was closed, you can do it here: http://forums.ort.org.il/scripts/forum.asp?forum=178 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifat Glassman Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 Hi Ifat, There is also an "Objectivism" blog, which discusses the blogger`s interpretation of the concept "Objectivism". http://israblog.nana.co.il/blogread.asp?blog=102337 If you are interested in reading the archives of a very prolific Objectivism forum that was closed, you can do it here: http://forums.ort.org.il/scripts/forum.asp?forum=178 Hi Asaf, Thanks for the links... One forum is more than enough for me now, but since it's in Israel, I'll take a look at it, and let you know what I think about it. Hopefully I can find some good people there, or at least some good ideas. (<-- it sounds pessimistic but it really isn't). Just out of curiousity, how many people, do you think, participated in that forum? How many Israeli Objectivists do you suppose there are? Ifat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.A Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 Just out of curiousity, how many people, do you think, participated in that forum? How many Israeli Objectivists do you suppose there are? Ifat Honestly, I can’t even guess; and I am not just talking about the question "how many Objectivists are there", but even on how many people interested in Objectivism there are. The number of people I have seen in the few forums I have actively or passively participated in were about twenty or so, no more (I think; maybe I`ll try to count later). But that really doesn’t say much about the people who don’t write in forums and advocate/ are interested in the philosophy, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifat Glassman Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 Honestly, I can’t even guess; and I am not just talking about the question "how many Objectivists are there", but even on how many people interested in Objectivism there are. The number of people I have seen in the few forums I have actively or passively participated in were about twenty or so, no more (I think; maybe I`ll try to count later). But that really doesn’t say much about the people who don’t write in forums and advocate/ are interested in the philosophy, does it? I guess you're right. I really did ask a dumb question. I was just interested in the answer, didn't think much about how anyone can actually acquire it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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