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First hand Experience with God

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steven1972

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I would also add this, IAmMeta,

For me, one great reversal in thinking has been part of my reversal from Objectivism to Christianity, throughout the process.

Even before I was Christian: I came to believe, using reason, that procreation was a more sacred and beautiful reason to have sex than pleasure. This also gives more integrity, and is in line with natural law or rational humanism: it is obvious the function of sex is procreation. If you are practical functionalist, this fact stands. This belief, which I gained in my mid 20s, is part of how I grew to become more traditional and embrace faith.

I consider this belief to be a development of reason and objectivism, not contrary to it.

If you follow this belief in procreative sex, and love life and generativity most of all, more than material things or pleasure, you eventually find you are in agreement with God about most things. Objectivism was always sterile, starting with Rand, sadly. She gave no children, except her students, sadly. Even if I had stood as an objectivist, I would still have begun a sub-strain of it that embraced procreation much more deeply. Chasing pleasure I have found reduces integrity.

However, I still believe in freedom, and I would not force others to help one another or believe as I do. Christians submit, and use words only, those who follow true belief. I'm abhorred by religious justification of violence among men. God never taught this, nor did Christ.

I guess I felt that the real answer came when I prayed. I didn't see it as a coincidence. I suddenly just understood I had to tell her the truth, and I had the guts to do it.

I still didn't have faith right away even then. It took years before I prayed again, and I was still an objectivist for a while...

again, thanks for the forum. I don't want to go off-topic too much, but thanks for letting me respond to forum...

I can feel you seem despondent that I've been misled, SWN. But I feel I gained more truth. I don't think I gave up integrity, but I feel more centered now...Maybe you don't attribute this to God....Again, as you indicated, nothing I say can really pinch hit for your own decision making process. It just comes down to faith, which Rand hated, I know.

I'm not sure if there's much more produce in this thread, except to answer respondents. Thanks, this discourse is exciting to me and happy. I wish such a nice forum had existed when I was younger...

I'm taking off for supper, have a good evening....

You have never had integrity, nor self-esteem. The only loyalty you have had is loyalty to your selfless primacy of consciousness. The thrill you felt was when you finally gave a name to your primacy of consciousness----God, slamming shut your self forever. I give you no pity, mercy or concern. Neither does reality.

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For all, to help you understand the mind of God,

All those things which Rand said about man's ideal as section titles for Atlas Shrugged, are actually true about God, even more deeply.

He is a non-contradictory God, absolute, truthful. He does not take back his word. His edicts do not contradict anything, but are internally consistent and living.

His reality is the most true reality. A thing is itself there, and there is no deception.

Most startling, God is either/or, completely. He either loves you or hates you in the end. You are either in his presence in the kingdom of Heaven, or boiling in a star somewhere alone, for eternity. You either seek holiness, or you stand against it. Seeking infantile pleasure is the broad road, common, and not really bold at all.

God is even more bitter about injustice than any man, even more than I used to be, and he sees it all, every hypocrisy and lie told by men, on earth. Nothing is hidden to him. He sees every human being on earth, from the poorest refugee in Darfur, to the biggest spoiled brat in America. If you thought Ayn Rand could give a fierce grilling in righteousness, wait until you meet Moses, or me for that matter, face to face.

Ayn Rand sought to make herself god in her own sight, and taught others like me to do the same.

She was only following Satan precisely, I have noticed, in theology, who always glorified himself, but hated everything else, but lied about it too, pretending wisdom and love. But I know none of you believe in angels, who are higher life forms than men. They have the power to delude, if you don't ask God for help. The very power that makes you scoff is just what they put into you: that should be obvious, that there is some power making you so bitter and scoffing, about a concept that is totally GOOD. God is good! Why scoff or hate?

I ask you, if there is a God who is totally good at the center of the universe, far above all, and far more mighty, and always just, why would you stand against him, but not entertain trying to find out if this were true. Wouldn't it be the best thing imaginable? It should be the most exciting possibility to an objectivist or any seeker of truth, that this hopeful thing might be true, that the universe is authored by someone good, who is above all.

The fact that you hate so quickly what is actually good is the whole substance of the delusion, or the "deceiving force," that is spoken of in Thessalonians by Paul. But you don't even believe in fallen angels, who are actively seeking to delude you. This is the sadness.

Rand took Christianity and other philosophies she hated, and reverse constructed them, building an opposing philosophy consistently against them. This is brilliant, but not unexpected. I find it not really that far removed from the common mentality of most people, though of course most of them are mixed in philosophy I agree. She really justified any thing you might do for your own happiness and pleasure, but saw anyone weaker than herself as a burden. How is this much different than the average spoiled American?

This is just a little insight into how I have shifted some objectivist thinking back to God, glorifying him instead of self.

He is either-or. This should appeal to objectivists. The hoodwink pulled by Rand is that she made it seem that God was not more intelligent than her, that she was the author of truth and ideas, when God is. Nothing in the hierarchy of her beliefs is original, but all stolen from God, shifted to herself. She just shifted the glory to self, again, consistent with the same beliefs as Satan (whether you believe in him or not: he was the author of self-glorifying, pretending to be the author of truth, and pretending to be most intelligent.)

I'm not talking about a fairy tale. As I said, I've found the conviction of having evidence. And even before that, I was struggling to believe some things....

But as someone said, the thread is running down. It is the same old argument of faith versus unbelief.

The only thing I thought you might all find interesting is that I was once one of the most passionate objectivists in North America. Yet, I came to believe in God. The amount of ideas given to me to spread to other people is enormous right now, probably more than all Rand ever wrote, and I've barely begun. All my intellect is filled with new belief.

Paul once murdered Christians and sought to take them to jail, passionately dedicated to this as an enemy of them. Then, he experienced a miracle, which I believe was true, and he became the most dedicated evangelist of his time, spreading faith to most of Europe and Syria, and then the world. Shifts of belief like this don't happen easily in a person's life.

Christians are the one group most willing to die for their beliefs in history, at least true Christians. They have integrity. People often murdered them for no reason at all, merely because they were loving and unmoving in their beliefs, uncompromising about evil. Doesn't this speak of something special? Those who died like this, often had the Holy Spirit in them. They knew God existed. I know they are in heaven, and want to be with them...Again, I used to believe all you all believe, so keep that in mind. Something has happened here. I would have thought someone was foolish or unintelligent to believe in angels when I was 15....

with respect, Steven

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Hebrews Chpt 11, verse 1: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Anyone who goes from claiming to be an Objectivist to suddenly replacing reality with his wishes and whims has cut off his own head. It's not enough to say that he's abandoned his rational faculty. He's ripped it out, chopped it up, spit at it, and thrown it in the sewer.

At this point, I think you should treat this man as mentally dead, for all rational intents and purposes. He is not worth arguing with.

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But as someone said, the thread is running down. It is the same old argument of faith versus unbelief.

The only thing I thought you might all find interesting is that I was once one of the most passionate objectivists in North America. Yet, I came to believe in God. The amount of ideas given to me to spread to other people is enormous right now, probably more than all Rand ever wrote, and I've barely begun. All my intellect is filled with new belief.

Faith versus "unbelief." That's cute. How about faith versus reason? Whim versus logic? If you're going to peddle tripe, at least have the stones to label it accurately.

I have no clue why you thought any of us would find it interesting that you were "one the most passionate [O]bjectivists in North America." I have no clue why you thought any of us would care that you "came to believe in God." "All your intellect is filled with new belief"? Objectivism is not about "belief"--it is about knowledge.

If you want to have an actual debate with someone on here, then set up an actual debate. That means you must set forth an argument and back it up point by point. No more of this stream of consciousness, Jackson Pollock-in-words garbage. If you're not interested in actual debate, i.e. you just want "preach" or "minister," then just go away. Your Carleton Sheets sales pitches are transparent as all get out.

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