KendallJ Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 WARNING. If you have not yet submitted art for the discussion, the consider doing so HERE before you read the discussion in this thread. If you do not care to post art, then you're welcome to discuss anyway, but look at the art so you know what we're talking about!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 OK, guys, as of this writing we have six submissions. 5 male (I think?) and 1 female (thank you Sophia). Not exactly a scientific sample, but this was never meant that way. First, thanks for posting. I am just curious about your perpectives and this might be fun. There are some intersting similarities in choices and some interesting differnces. Can I split into 4 groups, just for unit economy, based on similarity of style: 1. The female (Sophia, your style is a lot like group 3, but since your our only woman, and we want a separate perspective) 2. Classical (Metaphysical and Laslo) 3. Realists (me and aequalsa - by the way, you Romance link is wrong) 4. Deco (Vladimir) I am interested now to have you go to an intellectual space. Essentialize for me what it is about your three peices that is the essence of the theme. I know that the works show fully integrated human beings (i.e. Man as productive, woman as rational, etc...), but focus on the key aspects of the works that essentialize the 3 themes. List only the top 2 for each. If you want to say a few words about why you chose the pieces and describe a bit about your emotional state as you view the peices as well, that's fine. Beyond that we can start comparing soem of what we see and see if anything is similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Sophia~ Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 (edited) 2 of each was hard - I give you 3. The Masculine 1. Virility 2. Strenght/toughness (physical but also mental assumed) 3. Competence Thoughts when looking at this image: I want him. The Feminine 1. Womanliness/softeness of features 2. Fertility 3. Sensitive Thoughts when looking at this image: I want to project such messages. The Romantic 1. Limerence 2. Mutual sexual attraction/desire 3. Admiration Thoughts when looking at this image: I want to experience it. Edited June 23, 2006 by ~Sophia~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 2 of each was hard - I give you 3. The Masculine 1. Virility 2. Strenght/toughness (physical but also mental assumed) 3. Competence Thoughts when looking at this image: I want him. The Feminine 1. Womanliness/softeness of features 2. Fertility 3. Sensitive Thoughts when looking at this image: I want to project such messages. The Romantic 1. Limerence 2. Mutual sexual attraction/desire 3. Admiration Thoughts when looking at this image: I want to experience it. hmmm... some questions... 1. It's interesting to me to juxtapose your masculine and feminine. Leaving out the fertile-virile contrast for a moment you have softness-toughness, and sensitive-competent. It seems as if all the realists (except maybe alethiometry) and Deco have similar types of contrasts. I assume you at times are tough, and competent as well. What emotionally makes you prefer to want to project the feminine as opposed to the masculine. 2. The Realists (except for Greedy) and Deco, including yourself, all appear to have the Romantic piece with similar relationships between man and woman, in that man is in a more active or dominant role (man kissing woman, etc.) and woman in a responsive role. Is this significant in your Romantic peice? Could you envision the same emotional response if the peice had the woman kissing the man's neck instead? The Classical's have very similar Masculine and Feminine, but they did not evoke the same emotion in me as my choices so I am interested to here there descriptions. I've got my descriptions worked out, but will wait a bit to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterrose Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 1. The female 2. Classical 3. Realists 4. Deco Which of those would I fit in? Masculine raw stark Feminine subtle fluid I chose The Bride for my feminine piece because I wanted something I saw as feminine and powerful. I saw a lot of powerful feminine pics, but most were bikini'd (or less,) and I didn't like the implication of vulnerability or attractiveness as essentials. On the other hand, I liked the concealment the dress provided, and the idea of simultaneously readying for a fight and a wedding drew me to this pic. She seems perfectly prepared for either. I chose The Submariner for my masculine piece because I've always liked that picture. To me, it speaks of absolute concentration and extraordinary power, even in repose. Unlike the feminine pic, a minimal of wardrobe effort here implies to me that everything is focused toward his consummate goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Standard Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 (edited) Masculine Adventurous Intellegent This guy really seems to have it together. It makes sense, to me, for a picture highlighting masculinity to feature tools of some kind, especially a specialist's tools. Feminine Curious Perceptive This is a mysterious looking girl. Romantic Ok, this might not be an ideal, I just thought it looked cool. (Sophia's romance picture was the hottest one so far, I think). Edited June 24, 2006 by Bold Standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Berkov Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 Masculine -Composed -Self-possessed Feminine -Graceful -Refined Romantic -Intertwined -Purposeful I think the fact that all three pieces show clothed figures is important. To me, a naked figure is not exactly a complete human being. The plain, unadorned body is mans animal element, which requires no thought and about which a man or woman has little control. Clothes and other adornments are where the physicality of the body meets the mental capacity which only man possesses. The same is true to some extent of a person's speech and posture. Thus when I look at a naked figure in artwork I see no insight into its humanity. It is simply a body disconnected from the mental effort of the mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathanar Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 I suppose I should put my romance picture in context. It's a picture I took of my wife and myself when we went on our first real vacation with no kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 (edited) I'm going to add my descriptions and then ask a few questions. Masculine Purposeful intensity - Driven I think for me 2 aspects of the sculpture essentialize this for me. First the motif of an archer - the idea of striving for a specific target or aim. the tension of a drawn bow. Second is the overall posture, musculature and facial intensity of the archer. It isn't just that he's purposeful, its that he has every muscle, all his focus, every faculty he has actively striving for the goal. Emotionally, this is when I feel most masculine; when I have all my faculties harnessed and I'm firing on all cylinders toward a goal. I'm with Bold Standard on this one. I want to show masculinity, in context, of purpose (i.e. with implements, or surroundings that give the purpose meaning). I think this is an interesting similarity in many - not all - of the masculine pieces. Feminine Composed Erethral Adorned I had to think about this one for a long time about what aspect to me was driving my emotions. Just as in-context purpose was important in masculinity, here the color pallette, soft focus, and lack of external context is part of the key. This woman could easily be the CEO of a company and strong as all get out, but for some reason that's not my emotional response to her feminity. Unlike the archer, that's not what she's doing right now. I think in a way, her composure is to the archer's purpose as a perfume is to a flower. It is a distilled essence. She is not "harnessed" and firing on all cylinders, but her pose, her gaze, reflect what makes such intensity possible. Her only context is her clothing, but here the clothing serves to me as an adornment, or a tribute. As if you have to treat that essense in a revered and holy manner. I can't even tell you the emotional response I get from this one... Romantic Aspiration, Striving Passion Surrender The tense musculature and position of the two dancers to me shows an incredible effort, both to be what they are as individuals, and then to attain this combined pose. To me, this piece requires assymetric relationship between the man and woman, in the way that purpose and essence of purpose are complementary. The man strives to be worthy, to be true to the essence (the woman), and in so doing obtains it. The woman is responding to the actualization, the concreteness of the essence (worshipping it, in a way). hmmm you worship the concrete, and strive to be true to the essence. Is this the hero-worship / heroine possession duality? Edited June 24, 2006 by KendallJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 OK, here are all the feminine submissions so far. Someone give some suggestions on making thumbnails please! Here are the descriptions we have so far: -Graceful 1. Womanliness/softeness of features subtle Curious Composed -Refined 2. Fertility fluid Perceptive Erethral 3. Sensitive Adorned Any thoughts to my premise that a) the images are mostly out of the context of purpose, and generally not showing significant "active tense". They are shown contemplative, relaxing, posed, etc and b ) that this represents an essentialization that is essential and different than the masculine? It is interesting to note that this is true between females and males even though the female emotional response (single data point that it is) is opposite - i.e. I desire my feminine, but Sophia wants to project hers. Some people take feminine descriptors like "graceful, softness, erethral, fluid, etc" to imply weakness or frailty, but I wonder if it couldn't indicate other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 Erethral Yikes! , just to prove that I still can't spell. The word should be "ethereal" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Sophia~ Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 (edited) I assume you at times are tough, and competent as well. What emotionally makes you prefer to want to project the feminine as opposed to the masculine. This is not easy to answer. I am not sure if I would call it a preference. Projecting the feminine feels closer to the very essence of my identity (including sexual identity). I would describe it as my core, which then is being surrounded by all of my other characteristics (some of them being masculine). My core, my feminine side becomes the most concrete, the most fully visible and experienced when it is being contrasted - in the presence of my romantic partner. P.S What I ment by sensitivity (my 3rd response): 1. Rapid perception with the senses, reacting to small changes. 2. Reacting appropriately to the emotions or situation of other people, tactful. 3. Sensitive to the touch. 4. Emotionally sensitive. Are you surprised that I did not list ‘hero worship’? Ayn Rand conceptually had something there that definitely feels right. The desire to look up to your man is somewhere inside my psychology. To me it is a desired response to a man. I want him to be the stronger one; I want him to make me feel safe; I desire to be conquered. It makes the interaction more pleasurable and satisfying. I need all of those characteristics in him to be able to fully submit to him – in order to sexually let go of my self control. That is in fact how a woman is able to reach orgasm, by letting go. I am not sure, however, if hero worship is the essence of my identity – the essence of my femininity. I would call it – it is a desired response when my femininity is being contrasted. Another thing that makes me feel ‘very’ female, although in a very different way, is having a child and caring for it. Could you envision the same emotional response if the peice had the woman kissing the man's neck instead? Yes, it is very significant and the emotional response would not have been the same. It would have lacked the feeling of it being 'perfect'. Some people take feminine descriptors like "graceful, softness, erethral, fluid, etc" to imply weakness or frailty, but I wonder if it couldn't indicate other things. Softeness of features, delicate physically. Edited June 25, 2006 by ~Sophia~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Sophia~ Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 For some reason, the image of a bride with a sword evoked a very negative response in me, enough to post about it. This is not how a woman would like to feel on her wedding day - prepared for a battle. At this point the man have earned her admiration, trust, and love. She should not need to be prepared for a fight -and in response to what force? In self defense? As an aggressor? Both seem very wrong to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaszloWalrus Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 The bride image was also somewhat of a problem for me, as well. It seems somewhat un-feminine to me, particularly when juxtaposed with the wedding dress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 Agreed. The bride is not feminine; in fact, surrounded by the above (feminine) context, it is more than a little disturbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Standard Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 OK, here are all the feminine submissions so far. Someone give some suggestions on making thumbnails please! If you add the photo as an attatchment, then it will automatically make it a thumbnail. (I'm sure there are other ways, but that's the one I know ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterrose Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 This is not how a woman would like to feel on her wedding day - prepared for a battle. At this point the man have earned her admiration, trust, and love. She should not need to be prepared for a fight.But why would it matter whether the man has earned her admiration? Doesn't she still have need/desire to be in "active tense?" The bride image was also somewhat of a problem for me, as well. It seems somewhat un-feminine to me, particularly when juxtaposed with the wedding dress.Unfeminine? Why? The contrast presented by the wedding dress was kinda what I was going for. The pomp of a wedding is about as feminine (IMO) a thing as I can think of. On the other hand, I wanted something that dispelled ideas of femininity qua passivity and weakness. Is she foremost a Bride or is she primarily a Hero? Weddings usually last a day; I similarly wanted to imply the idea that whatever feminine qualities she possessed were a "dress," something that she put forward only in certain instances and secondary to the essence of who she was as a hero(ine). The bride is not feminine.How sniffy. Some people take feminine descriptors like "graceful, softness, ethereal, fluid, etc" to imply weakness or frailty, but I wonder if it couldn't indicate other things.I meant to indicate things other than weakness/frailty by "fluid," but considering the reaction to my Red Sonja bride... Some might use the alternate descriptor of "weaker": the idea that Wonder Woman can be feminine... but only to a man who is Superman (and to all weaker men she would be unfeminine???) I strongly disagree with that, but I thought I'd throw it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaszloWalrus Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 It would be one thing, in my view, if the bride were merely holding a sword; then, it could still conceivably be feminine. However, the expression on her face and her posture make her look like she's extraordinarly angry and wants to kill someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 Some might use the alternate descriptor of "weaker": the idea that Wonder Woman can be feminine... but only to a man who is Superman (and to all weaker men she would be unfeminine???) I strongly disagree with that, but I thought I'd throw it out. I agree with that idea. (the one you strongly disagree with) Whatever Wonder Woman (again, an Amazon comes up...) could be, qua strength she is not feminine. The feminine is the delicate. The masculine is the strong. It would be one thing, in my view, if the bride were merely holding a sword; then, it could still conceivably be feminine. However, the expression on her face and her posture make her look like she's extraordinarly angry and wants to kill someone. Exactly. Plus, the sword is drawn. Whatever she is, qua holding a sword and being furious, she is not feminine. Might I suggest that the sword appeals to you for reasons other than femininity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Agreed. The bride is not feminine; in fact, surrounded by the above (feminine) context, it is more than a little disturbing. I think rather than trying to state "fact" about another's submission, it might be more constructive to either post a counter example, or a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Standard Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Unfeminine? Why? Another reason that it comes across as unfeminine is this.. Imagistically, in art, holding a sword like that is kind of like having a big ol' penis. A sword is kind of a phallic archetype, you know. Say, Kendall, looks like you left out my Vermeer from the fem photos. :*( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 I think rather than trying to state "fact" about another's submission, it might be more constructive to either post a counter example, or a question. Oh, I thought you wanted our emotional reactions. Anyway, the sword/anger/combat thing is all over the place masculine. If it's masculine, it can't be feminine, naturally. Anyway, I've got some explanations and counter-questions up now so I'll see how that goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Another reason that it comes across as unfeminine is this.. Imagistically, in art, holding a sword like that is kind of like having a big ol' penis. A sword is kind of a phallic archetype, you know. Say, Kendall, looks like you left out my Vermeer from the fem photos. :*( Sorry, dude, tech difficulties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendallJ Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Oh, I thought you wanted our emotional reactions. Anyway, the sword/anger/combat thing is all over the place masculine. If it's masculine, it can't be feminine, naturally. Anyway, I've got some explanations and counter-questions up now so I'll see how that goes. No worries. I have to say that I reacted much the same way as everyone else seems to have to the "Kill Bill Bride", but at this point, it's just my opinion. Are you surprised that I did not list ‘hero worship’? Ayn Rand conceptually had something there that definitely feels right. The desire to look up to your man is somewhere inside my psychology. To me it is a desired response to a man. I want him to be the stronger one; I want him to make me feel safe; I desire to be conquered. It makes the interaction more pleasurable and satisfying. I need all of those characteristics in him to be able to fully submit to him – in order to sexually let go of my self control. That is in fact how a woman is able to reach orgasm, by letting go. I am not sure, however, if hero worship is the essence of my identity – the essence of my femininity. I would call it – it is a desired response when my femininity is being contrasted. Yes, it is very significant and the emotional response would not have been the same. It would have lacked the feeling of it being 'perfect'. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. I have to say while I cannot generalize, the Objectivist viewpoint on gender clicks with me, at least on "my side of things". In fact, I was raised in a much more gender balanced viewpoint, but never felt correct to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterrose Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Ironically (to me,) my masculine and KendallJ's masculine picture share the same qualities that are considered negative in the feminine pic. Aren't those pictures equally "extraordinarily angry", combative, wrong? The feminine is the delicate. The masculine is the strong.Based on what, statistical facts? Assessments excluding all non-delicate women and weak men? Catherine Halsey and Cheryl Taggart are some of the most "delicate" females in Rand's literature. Are they the ideal of femininity? If it's masculine, it can't be feminine, naturally.The two aren't necessarily polar opposites. And as for the phallic connotations, well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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