Do You Enjoy Movies That Have An Irrational Premise

[konerko14]

Now that I understand the fundamentals of reality better, I have a hard time enjoying most of the movies I watch. During films such as The Exorcist or Nightmare On Elm Street, for example, that have their premises based on supernatural entities and subjectiveness, I constantly find myself saying throughout the movie, "Thats just not possible."

But is there a way for an Objectivist to be entertained by such movies, or does one have to abandon the use of reason to enjoy them?

[Lathanar]

Suspension of disbelief. Sometimes you just have to enjoy a movie for what it was put out for, entertainment. Flights of fantasy doesn't bother me, it's plot complications or continuity errors that bug me, like Back to the Future II & III. Who cares if it was all bogus, the movie was horribly done.

[LaszloWalrus]

I mind books/movies which are pure malevolence, like The Exorcist. I do not mind supernatural elements. For example, I love all of the Harry Potter books.

There's a good article on this here:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=New...nter_friendly=1

[Strangelove]

But is there a way for an Objectivist to be entertained by such movies, or does one have to abandon the use of reason to enjoy them?

You are not abandoning reason if you say "I know the events of this movie do not happen in real life, but I can appreciate it anyway", you are afterall, acknowledging the fiction involved.

It was not as if, in your pre-Objectivism phase, you enjoyed the movies specifically because you thought the events they depicted (in the horror films) might be possible. You always (I suspect) knew they could not. In theory, you should still be able to enjoy the film for the same reason you did before, unless you have suddenly decided that you do not actually enjoy them for whatever reason you did before.

[ex_banana-eater]

Yes. I remember some people here critisizing Saving Private Ryan because the soldiers were given an altruistic mission. Emotionally, that's not the part that brings me joy in the movie. Seeing bravery and seeing people effective at what they do is what I admire--and that is something the film portrays.

It depends whether you're enjoying the peice for its irrationality or for another element.

[FeatherFall]

I'd like to echo some of the sentiments expressed already. There are some cases where the supernatural is dealt with very well. One movie I liked that was jam-packed with ridiculous notions of the afterlife: What Dreams May Come with Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jr.

Edited June 29, 2006 by FeatherFall

[RationalBiker]

Yes. I remember some people here critisizing Saving Private Ryan because the soldiers were given an altruistic mission.

Hmmm, I must have missed that thread.

In the paraphrased words of Capt. Miller, "I could care less about Ryan, but If saving Ryan is what earns me a chance to get home to my wife, then that's what I'll do." This phrase certainly sounds like selfish phrase to me if I have recalled that part accurately.

[The Wrath]

Hmmm, I must have missed that thread.

In the paraphrased words of Capt. Miller, "I could care less about Ryan, but If saving Ryan is what earns me a chance to get home to my wife, then that's what I'll do." This phrase certainly sounds like selfish phrase to me if I have recalled that part accurately.

That's what I thought too. Nicholas Provenzo stated in one of his articles that SPR was altruistic. I don't care much for his movie reviews anyway, because he seems to dismiss movies if they have the slightest hint of anything that isn't in 100% agreement with Objectivism. I've found this about most Objectivist movie reviews.

I seem to remember reading one that condemned Braveheart for the fact that William Wallace dies in the end, despite the fact that this is how it occurred in real life...also despite the fact that his followers went on to win the war. Another one condemned A Beautiful Mind, stating that John Nash was defeated in the end...completely ignoring the fact that the final scene is of Nash receiving the Nobel Prize in economics after overcoming schizophrenia, using only the power of his mind and completely unassisted by medication.

And why is The Exorcist malevolent? It's not like the demon is the protagonist. You may say, "Well, the priest commits altruism by performing the exorcism, since he dies." That's kind of a stretch, since he only commits suicide once he becomes possessed...he'd rather die than be demon-possessed...donning my Christian hat for a second, that's probably the same preference I would have in that situation.

I frequently enjoy movies/books with irrational premises. You just have to keep in mind the fact that they are irrational and don't look to them for any kind of philosophical meaning. Treat them as entertainment. One good example is my favorite summer movie, thus far: The Omen. I also enjoyed Dan Brown's books, The Da Vinci Code and Angels and Demons. Both books are completely absurd and contain numerous historical errors, which he tries to pass off as factual...but the stories are, nevertheless, engaging. I did enjoy the twist at the end of Angels and Demons, however. It seemed to be renouncing science in favor of faith, until the last 50 pages or so when everything you thought you knew about "whodunnit" turns a complete 180.

[miseleigh]

I also enjoyed Dan Brown's books, The Da Vinci Code and Angels and Demons. Both books are completely absurd and contain numerous historical errors, which he tries to pass off as factual...but the stories are, nevertheless, engaging.

He's also a very good author, and he definately knows how to tell a good story.

I didn't notice any attempts to pass those historical errors off as factual though. I thought it was obvious that his books were meant to be novels, not historical accounts, and as such he was free to make up whatever he liked to help his plots and characters flesh out a little.

Acceptance of some irrational things in movies and books is key for imagination and creativity. What kind of art do you get if you only watch, and therefore draw, rational things? Forget Picasso. There might have been lots of things that never got invented if some people hadn't thought of things that everyone else considered irrational and then found the way to make them work. Airplanes, for example. Granted, some things are more irrational than others, but they still fire the imagination and get you wondering 'what if...?'

[The Wrath]

He's also a very good author, and he definately knows how to tell a good story.

I didn't notice any attempts to pass those historical errors off as factual though. I thought it was obvious that his books were meant to be novels, not historical accounts, and as such he was free to make up whatever he liked to help his plots and characters flesh out a little.

For one, there's his statement that "Novus Ordo Seclorum" on the $1 bill means "New Secular Order." I don't mean the actual plot...I mean his account of things, as they happened in history. He is frequently wrong.

[Dargormudshark]

I love The Exorcist, yes it is a story about the loss of faith, and in the end it is regained, but it is still a great story. I like alot of movies that would be considered wierd and that alot of people on here might ask "How can you like that and be an Objectivist?", the same goes for music. Its not as if these movies move me the same way Rand's fiction does, or her ideas for that matter. I just appreciate it as sheer entertainment, or I respect it because they presented their sense of life in a very dramatic, compelling manner that took alot of work and talent to get across. So to answer the question more directly there are a good chunk of movies I enjoy that have irrational premises, but I do draw the line somewhere...that line would be "Naked Lunch" (Cronenburg, originally a book written by William S. Burroughs)

[Apollo]

Even if the film shows no redeeming artistic (philosophical) traits, it can still be entertaining for the craft of filmmaking. My best example of this is the Chinese film "Hero". The themes in this movie are unquestionably collectivist and anti-individualistic. But the film is so incredibly entertaining and well made that it's easy to simply roll ones eyes at the last 20 minutes or so. This isn't an appreciation of the art (by AR's definition) as it is an appreciation of the craft, but it's still downright awe-inspiring.

If I were to remove from my favorite films of all time list any film that offended me philosophically, I would have a short list.

[The Wrath]

I hated Hero. Yeah, I knew going into it that I would disagree with the theme, but that wasn't why I hated it. I just thought it was incredibly boring. All it does it tell the same story, over and over again, from a different perspective each time. The cinematography, however, was worth the price of the rental.

[davidmsc]

Unreasonable movies/books/etc can be quite enjoyable, for many of the reasons stated above. It's not a matter of an Objectivist believing in an absurd premise, such as deities or supernatural -- rather, it's an exercise in "What if...?" For instance, I enjoy very much the book "Fool On The Hill" by Matt Ruff (I'm sure many of you have read his Sewer/Gas/Electric), and one of the things that I love about it is the discussion among the dogs and cats. Of course this is nonsense, but by asking "what if dogs and cats could communicate using human words?", I am able to enjoy it.

[Lemuel]

Since very few films have a clear message - and the ones that do pander to leftist Hollywood politics - I go for other reasons. If it's entertaining, holds together without any huge plot holes, and is generally well done I'll like it.

If a movie ends up having a hero-motivated plot (rather than villain-motivated, like detective stories) and displays a benevolent universe premise, I find it to be a pleasing bonus.

[The Wrath]

What's wrong with a villain-motivated plot, just so long as the villain isn't the good guy? Silence of the Lambs comes to mind.

[Lemuel]

What's wrong with a villain-motivated plot, just so long as the villain isn't the good guy? Silence of the Lambs comes to mind.

There's nothing wrong with them, it's just a bonus when the hero's goals are the plot motivation.

In villain-motivated plots, one simply assumes the hero to be virtuous, but we don't get to see that until the bad guy starts causing trouble, which is usually about 5 minutes into the film. I recently saw the latest Harrison Ford movie Firewall. The most succinct way to describe the plot is: Jack Stanfield is a computer network security specialist for a bank. A thief kidnaps his family and forces Stanfield to hack his own computer system to steal a bunch of money. Okay, but what kind of guy is Stanfield? All we get is he's good at what he does and he loves his family, but outside of a heroic effort to rescue them, we don't really know his story. The hero is only two-dimensional; of course he'd want to save his family!

Constrast that with a movie like Rob Roy. The plot: Robert Roy McGreggor is a Scottish Highlander, a leader of his clan, and a man with a great sense of honor. McGregor encourages a British noble to invest in his land, promising a great return. When the noble's henchman secretly steals the money, McGregor is forced to defend his honor against the noble. We get a sense of who McGregor is before the conflict occurs. Then one obstacle after another is thrown in front of him, until he finally confronts his accuser and the henchman that stole the money.

Stories of this nature are, in my view, a lot better. Instead of being thrust into the action immediately, you get a real plot, and a character that can inspire you on some level, other than just righting a wrong - the hero has a goal and conquers ever-increasing challenges until he succeeds. With villain-motivated plots (especially in TV serials like Law and Order), the best you get is the reset: after all is said and done, everything's just back to normal.

But, like I said, it's just a bonus. Few films encourage real heroism anymore; it's either self-defense or revenge (the story of antiheros).

[BillyLiar]

One movie I enjoy but have come to accept (in part) as irrational is It's a Wonderful Life. Even non-Objectivists pick on me for liking this movie (it's too cheesy, I guess), but I still find myself enjoying it despite its obvious collectivist overtones.

Capra was a Communist, wasn't he? The whole conceit of the movie boils down to how important an individual is to the collective. Even though he is showered with money at the end of the film, it's ultimately his own acts of altruism and the altruism of others that eventually save him. And although the Potter character is demonized for being profitable, I think it could be argued that he is still immoral because he earns his money at the expense of the misery of others, not because he builds adequate housing.

So it can be taken either way, I think. Sure, parts are irrational, but that won't stop me from watching it come christmastime.

[Marty McFly]

Now that I understand the fundamentals of reality better, I have a hard time enjoying most of the movies I watch. During films such as The Exorcist or Nightmare On Elm Street, for example, that have their premises based on supernatural entities and subjectiveness, I constantly find myself saying throughout the movie, "Thats just not possible."

But is there a way for an Objectivist to be entertained by such movies, or does one have to abandon the use of reason to enjoy them?

Haha! I had the same problem as a kid.I just couldn't enjoy movies because my rational mind would keep saying "but that's not possible!" One movie I really did enjoy, though was Back to the Future. even though it's not possible, at least it's rational!

[konerko14]

I realized something kind of funny when I was watching Spongebob that relates to this thread. I love when Spongebob does these countless amount of crazy things in his show that would otherwise be impossible in reality. But when Im watching a show with real people in it and I see the slightest imfraction of something that cant happen in this world, it takes away from the show.

Maybe because cartoons seem like a different world to me. They usually arent duplicates of our world, at least by the way their physical world looks. So Im able to enjoy certain cartoons that go against our reality, but I dont enjoy "real" shows that do.

[Samandmax221]

I loved "Fear an Loathing in Las Vegas", you don't get any more irrational then that. Yes I read Novel first.

[curiosita]

I don't look for rationality first in a movie. It matters to me that it's entertaining, or somehow thought-provoking or inspiring. If I can identify with the protagonist (like in "Akeelah and the Bee" or "Shine") that's a major bonus as well.

I recently saw Darren Arronofsky's "The Fountain." That had a pretty irrational premise, but it also had absolutely breathtaking visual effects (given that none of them were digital.)

[Mammon]

I work in the movie industry, so I have some appreciation and some problems with the movie industry nowadays.

That aside I enjoy alot of movies and shows one might deem as irrational. The more rationally explained the better though. Like Heros on NBC is a good show that some of it you think "That's impossible" but it's still really great as far as storyline and plot go.

Two of my favorite movies of all time are Final Fantasy VII:Advent Children which was a follow up to the video game Final Fantasy VII, done completely 100% in CGI and the whole game and movie were very hero motivated.

The second one was this old italian move called something like Life is Beautiful about this Italian Jewish guy who falls in love and has a kid but him and his family were put in a concentration game and the whole time the father makes fun of the Nazis to keep his kid from finding out what is going on and trys to protect him (he is hiding his kid with him in his bunker, in the concentration camps kids were usually killed immedialty). The whole movie really makes you think how beautiful life is, the ending is really sad but really happy at the same time. It gets me everytime...

... Does anyone know what this movie is called?

[softwareNerd]

...called something like Life is Beautiful ...

... Does anyone know what this movie is called?

You got it right. "Vita è bella, La (Life is Beautiful)"

[KendallJ]

I look for rational premises if I'm in the mood to be inspired or at least enjoy myself. But I will go to movies that have mixed or negative premises just for the fun of philosophical detection, and to see how bad the world could be.