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You will have to justify the use of either to the law.

You will have to justify the use of just about anything to the law. I know a person who kicked an attacker in the face and was charged with assault with a deadly weapon. This person was wearing a sneaker.

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I recommend not fighting with a knife, ever unless you are well trained with them, and even then, don't.

Just about everyone who I've talked to who gives off the vibe of "this guy knows his stuff" says exactly the same thing.

[edit: poor choice of words: It isn't "just about" everyone; it's everyone I've spoken with who tells me this]

Edited by Inspector
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Be sure to keep in mind that an attack is not a wrestling match. It probably will not resemble any sport, including UFC and Pride-fighting, with the possible exception of elbows to fragile parts of the face.

Well, that's somewhat obvious. However, the main way an attacker would come at a person from behind would probably put him in a position to be thrown (which I can do if he isn't more than 200 lbs or so), and from the front I have a good chance of breaking his nose. If I couldn't throw the guy (due to surprise or weight) then bring on the elbows.

Yes, precisely. From what I can tell, Miseleigh, your attitude looks like overconfidence. Have you ever been punched by a guy the size of your friends? I don't mean a sparring punch, but a real one. (actually, that would be awful if you had and I certainly don't mean to pry, but what I mean to say is: are you sure you know what a fellow of that size is capable of?)

Maybe it is overconfidence, because I haven't been punched yet, and so don't know what it feels like. I have seen what they can do, though- they like to hit the punching bag, and convinced me to go with them a couple times. I'm not trying to say I could beat any guy who tried to attack me, but I have a major advantage of surprise on my side if that type of situation arose, just because I could and would fight back if needed. Generally an attacker is expecting easier prey than I'd be. I'm fairly sure I could hold my own at least long enough to get away, and that's what counts. If the guy's trying to knock me out and I don't see him coming, yeah, I'd be in trouble, but that would be true no matter what I was carrying with me or how good a fighter I was. If I see him coming, well, I'm not that bad at ducking out of the way, either.

I'm assuming a certain level of reality here, too- that the guy isn't a judo master either, and that if he's mugging me he'll probably ask me for my purse before trying to punch my lights out, and if he's trying to rape me he'd probably drag me away somewhere before knocking me out. I think most situations would give me a chance to fight back, and I'm not going to waste it just because I'm part of 'the weaker sex'. If he's got a knife or gun I've got a problem, and there are some situations that I wouldn't be able to get away from. I'll just have to hope they don't happen, because there isn't much else I could do.

Edit: Thanks for the advice about knives. I'll stay away from them.

Edited by miseleigh
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I think most situations would give me a chance to fight back, and I'm not going to waste it just because I'm part of 'the weaker sex'.

I just think that carrying some sort of weapon (even a nonlethal one) would be wise, even if you are a capable fighter. Why limit yourself and take unnecessary risks? Even if I were a black belt in Krav Maga, I would still carry my gun, and I don't have as much of a strength/mass disadvantage as you.

If I advise men to carry a ranged weapon, you'd better bet I'll advise women to do the same.

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Maybe it is overconfidence, because I haven't been punched yet, and so don't know what it feels like. I have seen what they can do, though- they like to hit the punching bag, and convinced me to go with them a couple times. I'm not trying to say I could beat any guy who tried to attack me, but I have a major advantage of surprise on my side if that type of situation arose, just because I could and would fight back if needed.

I think you have the proper attitude regarding this. The guy you mentioned who would rather pass out then tap out would be a good role model in that regard. Lot's of training is ideal, but in the absence of that willpower is 90% of everything. Just making that decision to not give up makes a huge difference. Even with more limited competition fighting (wrestling/sparring), the main difference in difficulty when fighting a person with no previous training is thier mindset.

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That works both ways, though... I doubt she is using every trick in the book to maim her friends, either. Of course, this will probably work out slightly in the advantage of the guy, because they might be holding back a lot more, relatively speaking.

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That works both ways, though... I doubt she is using every trick in the book to maim her friends, either. Of course, this will probably work out slightly in the advantage of the guy, because they might be holding back a lot more, relatively speaking.

No, I'm not trying to maim my friends... but I keep my fingernails strong, and if I'm walking alone at night I generally take my keyring and turn it into a faux brass knuckle set (put one key between each finger with the ring in your fist); it looks quite painful, and fairly easy to use without hurting yourself. The guys may be holding back more in terms of pure strength, but I think I have a few more tricks that they haven't thought of, just because they've never felt that they needed them.

One thing that I couldn't do in that kind of situation is give up. Especially if 'giving up' means 'getting raped'... no thank you. "Never give up, never surrender!"

Edit: wording

Edited by miseleigh
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I'd like to add something:

Most people who take self-defence martial arts never really learn how to defend themself in an attack situation. I've seen people with years in Tae Kwan Do, time in Krav Maga, and other arts get absolutely wasted by untrained but thuggish individuals. Most of these arts put you through the motions, you learn katas, you learn how to do the movement, but you are never in real sport fights (like a boxer, kickboxer, judoka, sambo, bjj, or wrestler is) so they never know the feeling and urgency of a fight. What a waste of time, years in an art and you can't defend yourself, even against someone who is just your own size, but more aggressive.

"Aliveness" is important. What I mean by that is doing actual fighting, like a boxer would with head gear on. You learn to fight the way a fight would move. Non-sport arts train to fight by not fighting, and it's silly. That's like dry land swimming. Learning how to kick, throwing a punch, doing a kata, and all those things are not fighting, they are the prerequisites needed to fight. To become good at fighting, above all, one must fight.

Miseleigh wrote:

Maybe it is overconfidence, because I haven't been punched yet, and so don't know what it feels like. I have seen what they can do, though- they like to hit the punching bag, and convinced me to go with them a couple times. I'm not trying to say I could beat any guy who tried to attack me, but I have a major advantage of surprise on my side if that type of situation arose, just because I could and would fight back if needed.

lol. What attacker is going to punch you? Even before I took martial arts, here is what I would do if I were a criminal: Since I am a big muscular guy, I'd rush straight at you and hold you in a clinch. How are you going to punch me now when you have no movement ability? I'm a criminal strangling you to death! Men are going to use their strength to their advantage, and women are typically rediculously light and easy to take down (IMO). This isn't a boxing match, an unarmed rapist isn't going to give you room to make punches. He'll push you up against the corner of the wall or take you down immediately and put his weight on you. THEN he'll punch you, if he wants to knock you out.

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I'd like to add something:

Most people who take self-defence martial arts never really learn how to defend themself in an attack situation. I've seen people with years in Tae Kwan Do, time in Krav Maga, and other arts get absolutely wasted by untrained but thuggish individuals.

Miseleigh wrote:

lol. What attacker is going to punch you? Even before I took martial arts, here is what I would do if I were a criminal: Since I am a big muscular guy, I'd rush straight at you and hold you in a clinch. How are you going to punch me now when you have no movement ability? I'm a criminal strangling you to death! Men are going to use their strength to their advantage, and women are typically rediculously light and easy to take down (IMO). This isn't a boxing match, an unarmed rapist isn't going to give you room to make punches. He'll push you up against the corner of the wall or take you down immediately and put his weight on you. THEN he'll punch you, if he wants to knock you out.

I agree with your initial comments regarding the lack of effectiveness without the sparring element. It is was what I was getting at in my last post. But I disagree with your assessment regarding miseleigh's comments.

Attacks are going to be context dependent. Any particular situation is going to possess a number of different details likely to alter the outcome significantly. If for example, miseleigh bent down to tie her shoe right as you were lunging for her, you would likely trip and give her plenty of time to get out the mace and after macing you she could unwrap the spork in her purse and pluck out an eye. Any scenario you can dream up is going to be like this.

Martial arts to the extent it does these thought experiments, looks(or should look) at particular nonsituational concretes. How do you move if someone grabs your left wrist with there right hand? How do you move if someone puts you in a collar choke? It's just not useful for her or anybody to look at an attack from the perspective that you suggest where the situation is that someone they don't see rushs at them from behind, grabs them and chokes them out without them realizing what happened. While that very well could happen, it is irrelevent since the scenario itself puts their fate outside of their control from the start. It would be the equivelant of someone asking me, "what if someone put you between the crosshairs of their sniper rifle and pulled the trigger, then what would you do? How would martial arts help?"To which my answers would be, "my head would explode and it wouldn't"

Learning to defend yourself is learning how to increase your chances using what you have the power to change. Her willingness to struggle, flail, and claw her way into an escape gives her a far better chance of success then someone who just accepted that there was nothing they could do. How good or bad your chances are in that circumstance are not pertinent. All you are trying to do from a self defense aspect is up your odds a bit.

If she were thinking of competeing in UFC or pride fighting against men, or even walking down dark alleys in bad neighborhoods looking for fights, I would be right there with you trying to talk her out of it. In fact I would go a step further and tell her she's out of her mind. But she's only talking about how hard she would try to escape when put into a circumstance she can't avoid, and helping to make the point that with effort, resolve, and training, she(and ostensibly, any woman) would at least have some chance of being able to stun the attacker and get away. From the sounds of her, she might even bring an ear out of it as a trophy. :P

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But she doesn't carry mace. She thinks she's too badass for that, or something.

oh...i didn't catch that part of her comments. I can understand not carrying a gun if it's illegal or you are worried about it being turned on you, but mace? Can't really defend that for her except maybe on the "not wanting it used on you" grounds. But even then, with great technological advances, like rings that carry a charge of pepper spray, that is no longer a good reason.

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... I'd rush straight at you and hold you in a clinch. How are you going to punch me now when you have no movement ability? ...He'll push you up against the corner of the wall or take you down immediately and put his weight on you. THEN he'll punch you, if he wants to knock you out.

I wouldn't be able to punch anything from a clinch, but I could stomp on his toes, knee him in the groin, bash the back of my head hard against his nose, bite, kick, scream, claw, etc. Hopefully, if I saw you coming, I'd get a punch in before you got the clinch.

If she were thinking of competeing in UFC or pride fighting against men, or even walking down dark alleys in bad neighborhoods looking for fights, I would be right there with you trying to talk her out of it. In fact I would go a step further and tell her she's out of her mind. But she's only talking about how hard she would try to escape when put into a circumstance she can't avoid, and helping to make the point that with effort, resolve, and training, she(and ostensibly, any woman) would at least have some chance of being able to stun the attacker and get away. From the sounds of her, she might even bring an ear out of it as a trophy. :(

I'd definately be out of my mind.

I'm not sure about the ear as a trophy, but it'd be good evidence against whoever attacked me. Don't think I'd want to keep it, though. :(

It's true that I don't carry mace or pepper spray. Most of my life I've lived in a fairly quiet suburban town and had no need for it. Worcester, at least the area I was in, wasn't quite that bad either, and I kept out of the areas that were worse. I do intend to get something (probably one of those pepper-spray rings) before I get to Boston. It's nothing about how 'badass' I am- I'm not. It's just that I haven't needed/wanted/bought it yet.

Edit: Apparently I need a Firearms ID card in MA to carry pepper spray, and it's illegal to buy it online...

Edited by miseleigh
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Hmm, would it be possible to get something like one of those "inflatable" maces, where you have a short stick which becomes a lot longer when you press a button? You could carry that in your hand while you walk around in more seedy places, and be a button away from inflicting some major damage on people. Alternatively you could just get some sort of thick wooden stick with a handgrip, and use the ends to basically stab people; that would probably hurt as well if you hit a good spot with some amount of force.

However, I am not sure about the legality of these types of weapons...

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Collapsible batons are vicious weapons - I'm surprised they haven't been brought up earlier. Legality probably varies state by state, and concealed weapons laws might apply. Anyone with a law/enforcement background care to chime in?

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I wouldn't be able to punch anything from a clinch, but I could stomp on his toes, knee him in the groin, bash the back of my head hard against his nose, bite, kick, scream, claw, etc.

I get it. You'd fight back with every last ounce of your strength. I would expect nothing less. Nobody is disputing that it is proper to do so. Your will to escape is surely as strong or stronger than anyone's will to harm you.

Now.

Are you going to be smart about this and use every advantage available to you to defeat your attacker? Or are you going to purposefully limit your means of defense by not acquiring a weapon that will equalize your odds against a physically superior opponent? Shouldn't you use every last tool and advantage at your disposal, in the exact same way and for the exact same reason that you would fight to the last bit of your strength?

If you're going to "bite, kick, scream, [and] claw," then why won't you mace or shoot? Please don't tell me you don't "need" to. You need to use every advantage you can get is what you need to do.

Geez, I never thought I'd be trying to talk a girl out of being macho.

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I wouldn't be able to punch anything from a clinch, but I could stomp on his toes, knee him in the groin, bash the back of my head hard against his nose, bite, kick, scream, claw, etc. Hopefully, if I saw you coming, I'd get a punch in before you got the clinch.

I'd definately be out of my mind.

I'm not sure about the ear as a trophy, but it'd be good evidence against whoever attacked me. Don't think I'd want to keep it, though. :P

It's true that I don't carry mace or pepper spray. Most of my life I've lived in a fairly quiet suburban town and had no need for it. Worcester, at least the area I was in, wasn't quite that bad either, and I kept out of the areas that were worse. I do intend to get something (probably one of those pepper-spray rings) before I get to Boston. It's nothing about how 'badass' I am- I'm not. It's just that I haven't needed/wanted/bought it yet.

Edit: Apparently I need a Firearms ID card in MA to carry pepper spray, and it's illegal to buy it online...

I too live in a quiet suburban area, have never been attacked, or really in fear of being attacked. I carry a gun with me everywhere it is legal to. Why? If you wait until you do need it before you get a weapon, you already waited too long. Bad things happen, and they can happen to you no matter where you live. How many times have you heard the story about the person attacked and maimed/raped/killed in "such a quite neighborhood"? Yes, it is much less likely to happen in some areas than in others, but it is never IMPOSSIBLE anywhere. I have a fire extinguisher in my home too, and it isn't because I keep having fires. It is because if I ever do have a fire, I would rather be prepared. It is better to have a gun and never need it than to need a gun and not have it. Now granted, in Boston it will be dang near impossible for you to get a permit to carry a gun, and might be almost impossible for you to even buy a pistol, but some type of weapon is much better than nothing at all.

Mike.

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I do intend to get something (probably one of those pepper-spray rings) before I get to Boston.

I'm not comfortable carrying a gun. I would not want to kill someone; I would much prefer to find another way to incapacitate them and let the law take care of justice. Having a gun with me wouldn't do me much good if I am unwilling to shoot.

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I'm not comfortable carrying a gun. I would not want to kill someone; I would much prefer to find another way to incapacitate them and let the law take care of justice. Having a gun with me wouldn't do me much good if I am unwilling to shoot.

You don't have to kill'em. That's why god gave criminals kneecaps. ;)

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Having a gun with me wouldn't do me much good if I am unwilling to shoot.

Then buying a gun probably isn't a good idea for you. Of course, I consider that unconditional unwillingness to be unhealthy, and recommend working on changing it as soon as you can. But until then, you're right that a gun won't work for you.

How about a taser, also?

You don't have to kill'em. That's why god gave criminals kneecaps. ;)

LOL, but the point of a gun isn't to execute your attacker. It's to eliminate the threat to your life as quickly and completely as possible. That just so happens to sometimes involve killing someone.

If someone tries to kill me, I wouldn't arm myself with a lesser weapon and risk my own life just to be nice to them. If you value the life of someone who attacks you more than your own, then by all means, don't get a gun.

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I'm not comfortable carrying a gun. I would not want to kill someone; I would much prefer to find another way to incapacitate them and let the law take care of justice. Having a gun with me wouldn't do me much good if I am unwilling to shoot.

You are right, if you cannot see yourself being willing to take a life in order to protect your own, no deadly weapon is right for you. Don't mistake that using deadly force is taking justice into your own hands, however. The point of a deadly weapon when used for self-defense, whether by the police or a private individual, is not to kill the attacker; it is simply to stop him. It is simply a coincidence that the force that is best at stopping an attacker is also often fatal. Remember that there is a reason that police carry pepper spray/batons/tazers AND guns; it is because the gun is more effective than the other options at stopping attackers. The police do not carry guns because they have a mandate to mete out justice, but rather they are the best things available to stop an attacker. If pepper spray was more effective than a firearm, I would carry that instead of a gun. I certainly have no desire to kill anyone, and have no interest in shooting anyone, unless that is my only choice to protect myself/a loved one. Pepper spray, tazers and the like all are less effective than a firearm, plain and simple. They often do work, and are better than nothing, but there are notable times when they do not, especially if the attacker is high or drunk, which isn't that uncommon for violent attackers. Again, you should not get a gun, or any deadly weapon, unless you are ready to accept that you may have to take a life to protect your own, but don't make the mistake of thinking that simply being willing to do that means you are trying to take justice into your own hands.

Mike.

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Then buying a gun probably isn't a good idea for you. Of course, I consider that unconditional unwillingness to be unhealthy, and recommend working on changing it as soon as you can. But until then, you're right that a gun won't work for you.

Perhaps 'unwilling' was the wrong word. I can certainly accept killing someone to protect my own life, but I do not think it would happen. Although I know that life has no intrinsic value, that idea has not yet been fully integrated. I was brought up with the idea that it does, and consequently I do not think my automatic reaction in an attack situation would be to shoot someone with a gun. There would be a delay, where I would have to think 'I should shoot this guy before he gets me' and by then he'd probably have me and the gun would still be in my purse or pocket. It isn't that I actually value the attacker's life more than my own, or that I'm 'being nice'- it's just that I think my reactions will be a lot slower if my weapon is a deadly one, due to the premises I still hold, and therefore a gun would probably be next to useless.

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Although I know that life has no intrinsic value, that idea has not yet been fully integrated.

Let's see:

You've identified the source of your unwillingness as an irrational premise that you hold subconsciously. You've accepted the falsehood of the premise, but since the subconsciousness doesn't response immediately to your conscious convictions, you have to work around it for now. At least, until it "sinks in."

Nothing abnormal about that. Just keep working on it. Someday, you'll clear out those cobwebs. :thumbsup:

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