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Tactics for Civilizing Iraq

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Charles

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As I am sure each and every member of this forum would agree, there is a necessity in bringing freedom and reason to fundamentalist islam nations. However recent events have made quite clear what was clear already; that nations such as Iraq, will not allow themselves to modernize if in doing so they become an American industrial outpost. They dont want American culture, they dont want American companies.

What many neglect to realize is that there is a whole range of islamic nations that have constitutions, i.e. law beyond the sharia, and are succesfull in fields of scientific and industrial endeavour. In fact there have been a series of Islamic scholars in recent times (18th, 19th 20th centuries) who have constantly, and sometimes successfully advocated a more secular/scientific approach to life with an attitude similar to that of the jews, whom have excelled in many fields.

It seems to me a tactic that could save this debacle is to offer the best elements of their culture back to them, instead of showering them with western leaflets, television and an explanation of why they need us, we could be bombarding them with islamic literature and envoys of civilized muslim scholars presented a better way of life that is theirs to claim.

You may believe it would be better for such a nation to accept America entering its nation and creating new institutions based on American ones and building up their economy with American business; but realistically that is never going to happen. Whether right/wrong they DO see us as an outside agressor and they do see many flaws in out culture/attitude.

We must appeal to their sense of reason, to inspire thought, and a new kind of pride - you see these people need a face, and we cant force a mask onto them, but we can help them find their own.

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I would like to highlight one of the most important words in your post.

appeal
Now I want you to ask yourself a question: WHY do they not like America and American culture?

There are only two choices in Iraq-Capitalism, or a Theocratic Totalitarian State. If you APPEAL to them, you are insulting the 10's of thousands of troops (Is the number up to 300k now?) in Iraq fighting FOR America, and FOR American culture. You are also saying that our way is WRONG and their way is RIGHT.

What you are seeing on Television is us trying to do what you advocate-appeasement of the Iraqi people.

What is needed instead is a full out advocation of American Culture and Capitalism, which are Western Values, not Islamic Values.

whole range of islamic nations that have constitutions,

These are fake/worthless constitutions. Do you really think the people of Iran...Saudi Arabia....Syria...Jordan...etc. have a CHOICE? Does their Constitution grant them Individual Rights?

and are succesfull in fields of scientific and industrial endeavour.

When you have barbaric, ancient levels of science-inventing the compass is a successful scientific endeavor. Try to find me a country in the Middle East, except for Israel, who has technology comparable to the United States-40 years ago.

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"What many neglect to realize is that there is a whole range of islamic nations that have constitutions, i.e. law beyond the sharia, and are succesfull in fields of scientific and industrial endeavour."Charles
Are you aware that the constitution of Saudi Arabia is the Koran?(In the most literal of senses I am talking about the actual book)

"There are only two choices in Iraq-Capitalism, or a Theocratic Totalitarian State"Jroberts

I dont agree that there are only two possibilities. You site possibities at the opposite ends of a spectrum. I think the ultimate form of government which emerges if we are lucky will be a more heavy handed version of Turkey. (Not Lucky in that thats an ideal form of government, but lucky in that I will feel somewhat relieved that people didnt fuck things up even more)

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Your being far to idealistic and not at all realistic, Im not saying whos right or wrong - Im talking in facts; they will not accept americanization, whats the alternative - escalating violence? more US troop deaths?

Im offering an alternative.

What is needed instead is a full out advocation of American Culture and Capitalism, which are Western Values, not Islamic Values.
Do you really think Capitalism has only ever been advocated by the West? Individuals throughout the world have strived for something like it, America is the first nation whose government has actually advocated it (past/present u decide). If America had the rational its claimed it does it would see that the only way we can make 'them' more like 'us' is to show them the door to progress, a natural progression in their own history, rather than point a gun and force them through ours...!?!

These are fake/worthless constitutions. Do you really think the people of Iran...Saudi Arabia....Syria...Jordan...etc. have a CHOICE? Does their Constitution grant them Individual Rights?

Not particularly. But the governments of Brunei, Dubai, Bahrain, Oman, Kuwait and countless others do. Your knowledge of islamic countries is unsettling.

Try to find me a country in the Middle East, except for Israel, who has technology comparable to the United States-40 years ago.

Current estimates have it that America is probably about 50yrs ahead of most of the world in its technological capibilites/potential, Britain - my own nation, lags behind considerably as does the rest of Europe and Asia. However many Asian/Middle Eastern nations have a great many research facilites and a great deal of student dedicated to their chosen field. Far more interest is shown in British Medical courses from Middle Eastern students abroad such as Brunei than in our own country and with a realisitic picture of the need for constant modernization in their own country they often become the greater doctors.

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"Your being far to idealistic and not at all realistic, Im not saying whos right or wrong - Im talking in facts; they will not accept americanization, whats the alternative - escalating violence? more US troop deaths?"
It is rather a sad set of choices isn't it?? But that doesnt mean we drop the objective.

As far as "accepting Americanization" what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean specific values, or policies???? Or are you reffering to Britnney Spears?

"Brunei, Dubai, Bahrain, Oman, Kuwait"

Brunei

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1997/bahrain/

Kuwait

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/kuwait.html

etc etc etc.

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I dont agree that there are only two possibilities. You site possibities at the opposite ends of a spectrum. I think the ultimate form of government which emerges if we are lucky will be a more heavy handed version of Turkey. (Not Lucky in that thats an ideal form of government, but lucky in that I will feel somewhat relieved that people didnt fuck things up even more)
A mixed government/economic system can not/will not work for long and eventually lead to one of the two alternatives-Capitalism, or Collectivism(Totalitarianism/Communism/Despotism/etc.). If Iraq chooses something like Turkey, looking at their culture and their religion, they will turn towards Totalitarianism (Germany was a form of government similar to Turkey before Hitler took over).

Your being far to idealistic and not at all realistic, Im not saying whos right or wrong - Im talking in facts; they will not accept americanization, whats the alternative - escalating violence? more US troop deaths?

You can't fight a war with a flower and a peace sign. Iraq has weapons-it's either die or get out.

Do you really think Capitalism has only ever been advocated by the West? Individuals throughout the world have strived for something like it, America is the first nation whose government has actually advocated it (past/present u decide).
Yes. Countries that have accepted a mixed version of capitalism (South korea, China) who are not Western Cultures did so by accepting Western Culture and Thought. Name the individuals who have strived for it.

I think you will agree that there have been progressive, albeit misguided, elements of islamic culture in the past. Would you not agree that by bringing these to light we can offer them the first rung of the ladder to becoming reasonable?

No. The only time Islamic "culture" ever achieved a high standard of living was when they accepted Greek, specifically Aristotlean ideals into their way of life.

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As I am sure each and every member of this forum would agree, there is a necessity in bringing freedom and reason to fundamentalist islam nations.

I don't.

All I want from Fundamentalist Islamic nations is for them to leave us alone.

If they want to live like animals and kill each other, there is no reason for us to get involved. If they want to kill us, I want them to know that we will wipe them out.

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If they want to live like animals and kill each other, there is no reason for us to get involved. If they want to kill us, I want them to know that we will wipe them out.
I'm not sure that that (them leaving us alone) can ever be the case. Fundamentalist Islam is rooted in the Islamic Principle of global "Un-mah" essentially translates to " Communitty" or "one world" (In the Islamic sense it conveys the sense that Islam must be a presence in communities and extend to one's everyday life, it can not be compartmentalized.)

Those Muslims who adhere to this principle naturally extend it to include all areas of life (government, schooling etc) and wish to extend Islam's influence. So because of this, there are two growth oriented forces at work and eventually they interact. (Not that Capitalism is a "force" but you know what I mean )

"A mixed government/economic system can not/will not work for long "

Oh they tend to last pretty long alright, (USA, Europe for example) . In the case of Iraq, it just needs to last long enough for Capitilism to get its foot in the door. I'm not saying that this will happen, but a society like Turkey isn't hopeless, and neither eventually will Iraq be if we play our cards right.

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What many neglect to realize is that there is a whole range of islamic nations that have constitutions, i.e. law beyond the sharia,...

The Iraqi constitution which was in place, prior to the overthrow of the Baath regime:

1. Had no regard for individual or property rights, and

2. Made Islam the official state religion

This seems to be true of most Middle East Muslim theocracies.

Their constitutions are bogus when it comes to establishing laws protecting the rights of individuals.

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