Objectivists Difficult to Find

[Mimpy]

I try to follow the Objectivist philosophy as stringently as possible. I do this not because I want to say I follow a moral code but because I truly believe in everything Rand said. Naturally, I seek relationships with people who believe the same things I do, who follow the same moral code.

However, I have never met an Objectivist in real life, with the exception of my uncle who introduced me to "The Fountainhead" in the first place. When I say "Objectivist" here, I don't necessarily mean someone who has read Rand but someone who feels the same as I about the world. I have never met such a person, but I desperately want to meet one. This forum helps. Rand's novels help. They assure me that people like that really do exist.

I can't shut myself off from the world completely. I interact with people on a daily basis, but I make it clear to them where I stand on certain issues and find out how they feel about those issues, as well. I feel that when I engage in close relationships with people who do not believe what I do, I am slightly compromising my own values. For this reaon, I tend to stray from close relationships. I don't want to be close with someone whom I really cannot relate with. And thus far in my life, even though it's been a short life, I have never found someone I can truly be close to. For example, one of my classmates is a Mormon. He's a nice guy and we have several classes together, so we tend to always walk to those classes together. I have asked him about his faith, if he really believes everything Mormonism preaches, and why he believes it. He has given me answers. He knows what I think about religion in general. We don't argue about our differing beliefs...he accepts that I am different from him.

And I, too, accept that he is different from me. But I know there is a distance between us that he may not even realize exists. I could never really open up to him because I know his values are not the same as mine.

I have dated guys with differing beliefs. It has never worked out.

So what do you do? Does you just wait it out, knowing that there are people out there like you, that it is only a matter of time before you find those people, or they find you? And if so, what do you do in the mean time? Compromise the meaning of friendship by befriending people who don't value friendship in the same way you do?

Edited December 20, 2006 by Mimpy

[KendallJ]

My advice. See the good in the people you know, but SEEK OUT the kind of people you want to know. Too few Objectivists in the world to wait for Brownian motion to works its magic.

I didn't meet another Objectivist for the first 15 years I was one. In fact, OCON last year was the first time I had met any other Objectivist in the flesh. I was worth it. Don't wait 15 years. Join a club (not sure where you live, but for me, not quite an option) or go to a conference.

As for the relationship thing, that is tougher. You can hold out for an ultimate value, but you really need to be actively seeking that sort of person out.

Edited December 20, 2006 by KendallJ

[aequalsa]

I try to follow the Objectivist philosophy as stringently as possible. I do this not because I want to say I follow a moral code but because I truly believe in everything Rand said. Naturally, I seek relationships with people who believe the same things I do, who follow the same moral code.

...

So what do you do? Does you just wait it out, knowing that there are people out there like you, that it is only a matter of time before you find those people, or they find you? And if so, what do you do in the mean time? Compromise the meaning of friendship by befriending people who don't value friendship in the same way you do?

Move to colorado or texas...they're a dime-a-dozen there. Not really but they do seem to cluster in those areas. Seriously though, you don't have to worry about comproising the meaning of friendship. You just need to differentiate between the different types of friends you can have. Aristotle divided frineds into 3 categories. Friends of utility(someone you interact with at work or school), friends of pleasure(someone you share an interest or hobby with), and friends of virtue(the sort that you want but havent found).

My advice, in the meantime, enjoy the parts of people that you can, disregard the other parts, assuming that they are not damaging or destructive. Also maybe look for objectivists. Start a campus obj. club, for example. Might be more around then you would suppose. They have this nasty tendency of being holed up in their apartment drawing buildings.

[Cogito]

I'm having a similar problem... I've held the convictions I have for as long as I remember (implicitly until I was around 11, more explicitly since)... It gets really tough sometimes knowing that most of my friends are just people that have similar interests to me, that they can barely relate to me and I barely to them. I'm only in high school... But it'd be so nice to have just one rational person around, one person I can relate to on an intellectual level, even if we share none of the same interests. But, not the case. I'd kill for a chance, one month every year, to take a vacation in a nice spot out in the Rockies with rational people who have rational values and don't run their lives like everyone I know does... It gets quite depressing, sometimes. I fear for mankind. That's one of the reasons I came to this forum... It's been a lifesaver. But most of you are much older than I am, and live far enough away to make the kind of friendship I'm looking for impossible. This is probably an incoherent mess, this problem has been getting me down quite a bit recently. I don't know what I hope to get out of posting this...

[FredS]

Mimpy,

If you live in Philadelphia, you should be able to find some other Objectivists within driving range. There may be some active campus clubs in Philadelphia (check with the Ayn Rand Institute). And I know that there is a good community group north of the city:

(This description I've copied from www.4cybernet.com/community/)

THE GREATER LEHIGH VALLEY OBJECTIVIST CLUB

Meets the 4th Sunday of each month from 1PM to 4PM rotating their

meeting place between the Allentown, PA area and the Norristown, PA

area. Discussions are lively and attendance averages about 10 people

per session. They currently "chewing" OPAR using Gary Hull's Study

Guide.

Contact: CLEM or GINNY TABOR ([email protected])

Fred

[Olex]

I see the same problem of lack of intelligent people, and even more so of Objectivists.

However, I do not see the cause for the depression. I can see that there are plenty of intelligent people out there from news, Internet, etc. I can find a few people around who can think and work towards their goals. And of course, Internet bridges the distance gap, so, it is possible to find places such as this forum.

[POV follows:]

Either way, however, I don't see how any of this is a problem. It would be better if the entire world was rational and Objectivist, but it is not essential for my happiness. Even if the entire world was doomed and running toward the end, I can still enjoy my life through my work for whatever time there would be available. The historical trend, however, is overall positive, so I don't have a doomed view of the world. Hell, watching some of the achievements accomplished by individuals ("heroes") throughout history is enough to see that one can achieve in the world. (I saw Burt Rutan in person on a conference this year. ) That is the essential piece of the puzzle for me. If I can achieve, I'm happy to live. Relationships are secondary (if not further back).

For me, the question of relationships can only cause a minor dent on a generally positive graph. I recall how Ayn Rand (and/or Leonard Peikoff) described that a rational person with a goal in life has a positive emotional background (related to the sense of life), so a lack of something other than the main goal can only cause a minor dent on this positive background, but it should not fall into negative.

I find that my state of mind follows their descriptions and implications.

-----

[some specific answers:]

Do you just wait it out, knowing that there are people out there like you, that it is only a matter of time before you find those people, or they find you?

I know that there are people out there like me, but I can't say that I am waiting.

I think this is a point where I need to do some introspection work and analysis. However, I can recall one point from the The Fountainhead where Roark is working on a cottage house after he lost his Temple case. Dominique was on her way to marry Gail, but stopped at the small town where Roark was working. Dominique told Roark that after previous buildings, the cottage house was like quarry all over again. Roark said that he didn't think so and that he thought he would build larger designs in the future, yet he enjoyed this current work just the same. Then Dominique asked Roark: "What are you waiting for?" He replied: "I'm not waiting."

The precise (or explicit) understanding of the meaning of the above passage still alludes me, and I can't put it down into words right now, but this is how I would answer: "I'm not waiting."

And if so, what do you do in the mean time?

I do the work I enjoy, build my life one step at a step.

Compromise the meaning of friendship by befriending people who don't value friendship in the same way you do?

I have not been able to even start a relationship/dating with someone who doesn't hold the same basic values and virtues as me. The repellent force is far too great, almost on a physical level.

[mweiss]

This is a matter of practical difficulty for many who find Objectivist principles to be correct and appropriate to all matters of life and politics. For this reason, I find myself constantly getting into arguments with people I run into during the course of living. I feel like I'm living in an irrational world. What's worse is that many of these irrational people have guns and badges.

I used to have a few friends who were interested in Objectivism and we attended lectures together. We also had discussion groups at my house. This was up to 1969. I'd say maybe two friends were true Objectivists; the others were somewhat interested but either followed the Branden route or Subjectivity and Hegelism later on. Those friends moved to the opposite coast in the following years, leaving me with neurotic, insane religious fanatics at work and in the health club.

Relationships geared toward finding a lifetime mate were hopeless. I wasted over 40 years looking for such a person. I finally gave up looking in America and ended up stumbling across someone, though not Objectivist), was someone I could live with and shared enough moral values. Although she is a Catholic, but not practicing.

The fact is, we are too few in numbers. Not even everyone on this forum is an Objectivist. Although some are. You can easily tell by the questions they ask.

I think you have to selectively accept certain things and take the good and leave the shaff behind. A lot of people are generally okay, if you stay away from real issues of religion and politics. I know it's hard--you often want to discuss a moral injustice you heard about on the news, and find out that you are the only one holding a unique and unpopular opinion on the matter. I've been in that situation thousands of times. People think Objectivists are selfish, haters of humanity, in general. It's too bad that the public at-large gets that impression.

[Bold Standard]

However, I have never met an Objectivist in real life, with the exception of my uncle who introduced me to "The Fountainhead" in the first place. When I say "Objectivist" here, I don't necessarily mean someone who has read Rand but someone who feels the same as I about the world. I have never met such a person, but I desperately want to meet one. This forum helps. Rand's novels help. They assure me that people like that really do exist.

Yeah, I think I know how you feel. I've had the pleasure of meeting a few other Objectivists, and it has been totally up to my expectations. But I haven't met many close enough to my age and near enough in distance to form any real, close friendships with, yet. I think it's totally natural and healthy to feel loneliness in that kind of situation, and I feel that way sometimes. If you search "loneliness" on the Ayn Rand Research CD-ROM, there are lots of interesting hits. One of my favorites is from Ayn Rand's essay, "The Comprachicos," (also, one of my favorite essays by her) which can be found in The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution, and in the October 1970 issue of The Objectivist:

The thinking child is not antisocial (he is, in fact, the only type of child fit for social relationships). When he develops his first values and conscious convictions, particularly as he approaches adolescence, he feels an intense desire to share them with a friend who would understand him; if frustrated, he feels an acute sense of loneliness, (Loneliness is specifically the experience of this type of child—or adult; it is the experience of those who have something to offer. The emotion that drives conformists to "belong," is not loneliness, but fear—the fear of intellectual independence and responsibility. The thinking child seeks equals; the conformist seeks protectors.)

Loneliness isn't about being dependent on other people--it's a totally unrelated emotion. It's based on the frustration of grasping a potentiality; the potentiality of being challenged and stimulated by another creative mind who shares your values, and the frustration of not being able to find anyone to fulfill that potentiality (when you know that you could earn all of the benefits of such a relationship, and that you could reciprocate to tremendous mutual benefit, if such a person were actually in your life, instead of just potentially).

What do I do in the mean time? I do my best to be that type of friend to myself, as much as possible. And I try to really learn about people, and study them, and find out what values I can get from them (through trading, of course). I've been sometimes surprised by what virtues I can find in those who were at first, I thought, the most unlikely sources. And though I haven't met my ideal friend or lover yet, I think that's a good skill to develop, so that I can spot my ideal if we ever do meet, and so I'll be competent enough in the simple skills/mechanics of relationships to successfully have a relationship with the person at that point. But I try to be very careful not to let myself become vulnerable to people's vices. People who don't share my values *do* have the vices I would expect, and do use them against me (intentionally or not) if I allow them to, as I've learned the hard way many times. But again, I think learning to spot that is good practice, too, because my ideal might have some hidden vices, and then they might be harder to spot, being masked in virtue. Also, I might have some of those vices without realizing it, and seeing the consequences pan out in the actions of other people sometimes helps me to spot those principles subconsciously at work in myself, too.

Reading and self-help stuff is good, as well. Dr. Ellen Kenner's radio show often has helpful advice for social dynamics type stuff. Of course, Ayn Rand is the best writer on this sort of topic, but you might like certain passages in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra, which, although philosophically ridiculous and psychologically disturbing in parts, also has some inspiring and intellectually interesting passages on the topic of loneliness, individualism, standing apart from the crowd ("herd" as he calls it), etc.

Good luck on meeting some people who deserve to meet you, and who you deserve to meet.

[Edit: page number in quote]

Edited December 20, 2006 by Bold Standard

[LaszloWalrus]

To offer some comfort, there is likely to be an Objectivist organization at the university you attend, so you probably don't have long to wait.

[softwareNerd]

As others have said: seek them out. Join a nearby club. At some point, when you can afford the student-rate, attend OCON (or some part of it).

I have a caveat though: do not assume that it is more likely that you'll like someone and want to be friends with them, just because they say they're an Objectivist and attend Objectivism-related events. Firstly, there is a wide variety of people who call themselves Objectivists, and for a wide variety of reasons and with a wide variety of understandings of what that means: from being hippie-types who want to do whatever they wish, to monk-types who want to be bound by a strict concrete code. So, you'll have to figure out what groups are more selective, and you'll have to judge the individuals. Secondly, even if a person is an Objectivist, it does not mean you'll have the right "vibe" for a friendship.

Turning to the good news...

The population of Objectivists is growing all the time and I doubt there is any major US city that does not have enough for a little group. Within these Objectivists you're sure to find some who are really good folk and with whom you also feel a "connection" (similar interests, similar sense of life, similar age-group). The numbers are still small enough that one has to seek these people out, but it can be done, and it's worth it. There are tonnes of non-Objectivists who make great friends, but there are a few Objectivists out there who are just perfect as your friends. Don't settle for less.

[LutherSetzer]

Visit http://www.meetup.com to find people of common interests, including Ayn Rand, near you -- or start your own Meetup and promote it via calendar notices to local newspapers, flyers in libraries, etc.

[Ifat Glassman]

For me, the question of relationships can only cause a minor dent on a generally positive graph.

I recall how Ayn Rand (and/or Leonard Peikoff) described that a rational person with a goal in life has a positive emotional background (related to the sense of life), so a lack of something other than the main goal can only cause a minor dent on this positive background, but it should not fall into negative.

"To love of life: Thank you for being a tiny bimpity-bump on my curve of happiness"

You had me laughing for 20 minutes over this one. Relationships are not "dents" silly (I mean that they should not be).

I find your combination of being able to admire people and be excited by their virtues (like Burt Rutan) and the view of relationships as "dents" to be bazar. It is like a child that finds the flavor of ice cream tremendously yummy but never wants to buy one for himself.

There's a great post by softwareNerd about relationships, in a thread about "The value of relationships" that is related to this thread.

[Olex]

I find your combination of being able to admire people and be excited by their virtues (like Burt Rutan) and the view of relationships as "dents" to be bazar.

You have misunderstood my post. I was saying that a lack of a rational relationship can only be a negative, a"dent," not the relationship itself.

[Drew1776]

Mimpy,

When you’re trying to meet people I think a person’s sense of life is more important than their philosophy. A person can change their views on certain issues however their sense of life is more deeply ingrained. For instance I am a happy person and I love life. Not many people have that mentality. So when I see that spark in someone (I’ve only met 2 or 3 people in my short life of 24 years) I know that that is something to be pursued. I met my current fiancé in college. I talked with her online and the way she talked made me think she was a fun-loving person (which is very important to me) and she was an atheist. We went out and talked she definitely wasn’t an objectivist but that didn’t matter because she laughed and was confident and enjoyed herself. She had a willingness to discuss things and, over time, recognized that objectivism held a more coherent philosophy than the liberal propaganda she was brainwashed with at school.

I went to an Objectivism function held by TOC. I was so excited that I was finally going to meet some great people that thought the way I did! My expectations were very high; these were going to be my people! I was sorely disappointed. The lectures were wonderful but the people there seemed to be just like the people I saw every day on the street. In fact, they were not like me at all and I found many people irritating.

The moral of these stories is that there are more important things than philosophy. A person’s underlying character and their sense of life is what is important. The philosophy of a person is VERY important to me but when I looked for a girlfriend, or when I look for friends now, it is their underlying sense of life that I find attractive and that I enjoy.

My suggestion would be to introspect and find out who you are and what you want from a sense of life perspective. Also think about what traits you need in another person. Are you crazy and wild or are you calm and focused? Is having a person on the crazy/spontaneous side important or do you want someone who is quieter, more deliberate and calm. Regardless, I’d suggest you find someone who has a proven track record of being able to throw off ingrained beliefs or resist indoctrination to begin with. For instance if you find someone who was raised religious and is now an atheist they will be much more likely to be receptive to new ideas (in general). Remember they were able to cast off religion despite their church’s, parent’s, etc. best attempts.

These are just some suggestions off the top of my head.

[khaight]

The moral of these stories is that there are more important things than philosophy. A person’s underlying character and their sense of life is what is important. The philosophy of a person is VERY important to me but when I looked for a girlfriend, or when I look for friends now, it is their underlying sense of life that I find attractive and that I enjoy.

(It's so tempting to make a snarky comment about expecting to find Objectivists at a TOC event...)

There's a well-known Objectivist named Betsy Speicher who says that she finds a positive, value-pursuing sense of life to be a much better sign of a potential future Objectivist than agreement on political principles. It's true. Explicit ideas are much easier to change than deeply ingrained values. My wife wasn't an Objectivist -- but she valued reason, fact, logic and evidence, and she was a value-seeker. Given that foundation, and time, the rest can follow.

[Bold Standard]

When you’re trying to meet people I think a person’s sense of life is more important than their philosophy.

I thought about mentioning sense of life too. In case someone is not familiar with the term, it is explained in detail in The Romantic Manifesto, especially chapter two, "Philosophy and Sense of Life."

A sense of life is a pre-conceptual equivalent of metaphysics, an emotional, subconsciously integrated appraisal of man and of existence. It sets the nature of a man's emotional responses and the essence of his character.

I went to an Objectivism function held by TOC. I was so excited that I was finally going to meet some great people that thought the way I did! My expectations were very high; these were going to be my people! I was sorely disappointed.

I have no motive to resist the temptation: it's probably more likely to meet an Objectivist at the Democratic National Convention than at a TOC event.

[justkariann]

Don't feel like you need to find a pre-made objectivist...My husband is an objectivist, and I was a bleeding-heart-liberal when we first met. We were drawn to each other's "sense of life" (long-story, but true). Although I had some seeds of objectivism previously planted in my thoughts (that I didn't recognize until later)...I was ripe for learning. The seed within me was planted when I had previously been exposed to Rand, and had read the Fountainhead. However, I only understood the concept as far as it illustrated artistic integrity at the time...I had no understanding of objectivism, but enjoyed having a deep conversaion at long last! Because of my thirst for more knowledge and inspiration we had more enlightening conversations, and I did more reading. I slowly evolved, but I certainly was made, and not born!

As we dated, he was very cognizant of my few altruistic weak spots, and was careful not to "turn-me-off" by revealing horrific objectivist philosophy and avoided or softened the conversation....He was actually a master of gradual introduction. He played a clever game of understanding my lefty-thoughts and slowly nudged me into answering questions that I couldn't refute. I still jokingly say that it was trickery that he was able to convert me, but he was actually very wise in the way that he fed rationality in a few digestable morsels, as opposed to shocking me with a philisophy that contradicts my upbringing.

I second (or third) the concept of celebrating the sense of life....In the end, its all about affirming life, and life should be a celebration. If you can find someone who celebrates life, you should be able to find a way to celebrate it realistically!

[Old Soul]

I know just what you're feeling Mimpy. Now I'm just drawn to people that share many of the same virtues as myself, like confidence, rationality, passion, honesty, etc, but never have our values been close enough to merit a life-long relationship. People constantly fail me and my standards, and I have this complex with women where I end up just getting infatuated with girls I meet at a party or talk to for a little bit. The girl hasn't failed me yet and has the possibility at being someone I respect and deeply, truly value. I understand this problem and just let it pass, accepting it as an hour long, day long, week long thing.

I know one self-proclaimed objectivist in college, and although he types the right things into his facebook profile and puts on a show of an unbridled individualist, he has the same symptom of anyone else I have met that agrees with the philosophy of objectivism: the inability at exerting these values into the world, meaning a complete lack of confidence in him or herself and objectivism. That lack of confidence turns into avoiding social gatherings, relationships, and parties, all just an insufficient understanding of objectivism. It turns into a slouched back, wandering eyes, overly aggressive handshake; an illusion of confidence. It is incredibly hard to be an outgoing, social, fun objectivist in college, and I either meet people that have the social ability or the intellectual/philosophical ability, but not the full package. And never the underlying objectivist philosophy (or something resembling it) giving meaning to any of their actions.

It's tough. I would love to get to a conference, but the ones I've seen are all in the middle of a quarter. I'm applying for an internship at the ARI this summer, and after seeing all the internships I get in to, I might find myself surrounded by like-minded individuals. So if anyone here in college finds themselves around the bay area, CA, stop by Stanford and we'll definitely get together for lunch, surfing, and partying.

[Drew1776]

(It's so tempting to make a snarky comment about expecting to find Objectivists at a TOC event...)

I have no motive to resist the temptation: it's probably more likely to meet an Objectivist at the Democratic National Convention than at a TOC event.

HAHAHA I knew these complaints would be coming (not that these complaints aren't valid.) I specifically said it was a TOC event so people knew I was talkign about TOC not ARI. :-)

[Ifat Glassman]

You have misunderstood my post. I was saying that a lack of a rational relationship can only be a negative, a"dent," not the relationship itself.

Ok, big difference. Here is what you said:

If I can achieve, I'm happy to live. Relationships are secondary (if not further back).

I guess I misunderstood the context. This is not a general statement, but more like "in order to be happy this (creative work) is what it takes for me". And not "Nothing can even remotely come close to make me as happy as this thing (creative work) can".

In this case, I agree with you.

During the happiest year of my life I lived entirely alone. It was the year when I created almost all of my paintings.

But I disagree with this:

Even if the entire world was doomed and running toward the end, I can still enjoy my life through my work for whatever time there would be available.

Try thinking about how creating your stuff would feel like if you knew there would be no use for it, no one to appreciate it, to buy it, to admire it. I mean... it would be a real bummer, wouldn't it? For me it would take away a major chunk from the enjoyment I get from my work, though, I never think of other people's reactions to my work as I create it. No one exists for me when I create something, But it must be in the background somewhere.

I know that there are people out there like me, but I can't say that I am waiting.

Well why not? If there is a value so great, don't you think it is only logical to wait for it, in the sense that you want it to happen, and it matters to you when it happens?

Then Dominique asked Roark: "What are you waiting for?" He replied: "I'm not waiting."

Because if one spends one's life waiting for some future happiness, then one's life go to waste. Life should be happy all the time, as a basic state of mind and emotion.

[aleph_0]

In case nobody has posted this yet, www.theatlasphere.com is a good place to go for O'ist dating. Like another poster has said, a lot of people call themsevles O'ists so you still have to be selective about it, but being able to look at all the people in your area who call themselves Objectivists doesn't hurt. Also, there's still an MSN Group for Objectivist Singles. In Phili you really shouldn't have too much difficulty finding someone to talk to.

[DarkWaters]

Hi Mimpy,

In case if nobody has posted this yet, here is a list of Objectivist student clubs who have registered with the Ayn Rand Institute.

[Olex]

I guess I misunderstood the context. This is not a general statement, but more like "in order to be happy this (creative work) is what it takes for me". And not "Nothing can even remotely come close to make me as happy as this thing (creative work) can".

In this case, I agree with you.

This is closer to what I meant. I would only correct that I would the phrase the second quote of yours as: "Nothing can even remotely come to disturb what makes me as happy as this thing (creative work) can."

Try thinking about how creating your stuff would feel like if you knew there would be no use for it, no one to appreciate it, to buy it, to admire it. I mean... it would be a real bummer, wouldn't it?

No, it wouldn't be.

For me it would take away a major chunk from the enjoyment I get from my work, though, I never think of other people's reactions to my work as I create it. No one exists for me when I create something, But it must be in the background somewhere.

That is weird. I don't need any such background.

Well why not? If there is a value so great, don't you think it is only logical to wait for it, in the sense that you want it to happen, and it matters to you when it happens?

It is logical to wait for something. However, the meaning of "waiting" can be different in a different context, for example "waiting" in a line for something and "waiting" to find somebody have different meanings in the way both activities are to be performed and what is required of those activities. I think this difference is in play with Roark's answer. I don't have the concrete answer, though.

Because if one spends one's life waiting for some future happiness, then one's life go to waste. Life should be happy all the time, as a basic state of mind and emotion.

I don't think this is what Roark meant. He said before that answer that he enjoys building cottages, and that he would be happy to do it for the rest of his life. So, this removes the possibility of that meaning.

[Bold Standard]

No, it wouldn't be.

Have you read We the Living? This part of the conversation reminds me of Kira's suspension bridge--with no banks to build it on. But I guess there are some careers one could pursue satisfactorily on a desert island. Fishing, or coconut farming..

[Olex]

Have you read We the Living? This part of the conversation reminds me of Kira's suspension bridge--with no banks to build it on. But I guess there are some careers one could pursue satisfactorily on a desert island. Fishing, or coconut farming..

You are applying my answer to a different context. The context above was the one about people liking your work (and etc.) once it is done, so we are working in a context where it is possible to do one's work.