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Tenure: Who needs him?

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Well, I've come to realise that I do most of all. I'm one of the many people that has come to Objectivism from the superficial side (Egoism, Individualism, Arrogance, etc), before exploring the actual axioms and such. Upon studying them, I've come into overwhelming agreement with almost everything I've read, so long as it has been fully integrated with the basic theory of Objectivism.

I suppose it's the more obtuse arguments that I struggle with ('How do we handle prisoners?', 'Does looting really destroy the looter?'). That second question especially troubles me. In a world where I feel isolated from most everyone upon realising how shut off from reality they are, how irrational and selfless they are also, I still see that they are quite happy and can't imagine they will be too damaged by their immorality.

I'm further confounded by the fact that I see very few individuals who value their own self-interest, even fewer who are morally better for it and very, very few who I could say are happy for it (if any). I remember reading Ayn Rand saying that she wrote to tell people that these heroes do exist, and that happiness is possible, but I still remain to be convinced.

But enough of why I'm here. I should say who I am, afterall, I should know who I am, right? :thumbsup:

I'm a student in every sense of the word (ending High school in a month, entering into University after a gap-year). My mid-term goals (I say so because they aren't short term, but also aren't what I plan to spend the rest of my life doing) are to learn so that I may be competent in my intellectual reasoning. I want to be able to think clearly, and rationally, with an educated mind, so that I can use it for my purposes. I don't wish to learn for the sake of learning (though what I learn often fascinates me), but to learn so I can prepare myself for all the challenges of everyday.

I love the theatre. I'm an actor-in-training - although some practitioners would argue that actors remain in training their whole life - and I want to be so much more. I love to act, but I'd equally love to craft a moving play, and to spend some time directing a play that I've fallen in love with. If I can't do this, I will find a way. As a hobby, I love to improve my drawing skills. I draw a lot of doodles, and I've turned that habit into a way to train myself in how to draw. I'm inspired by Victor Hugo who painted beautiful paintings on the side, which he only published for his friends and family (albeit, it wasn't just that he didn't care to show his paintings to the critical 'art circles', but that he wished people to focus on his political writings and not his personal art).

I'm a student, and I'm here to learn. Part of learning is asking questions, part of it is arguing, and part of it is testing what you learn in the real world - though the last of these is something for me to do beyond the ephemeral walls of this forum.

-Rory

Edited by Tenure
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Hi Tenure,

I am a senior in high school, too, and I cannot wait for it to end!

What have you read of Ayn Rand's and what got you interested in her work?

Heh, well, I wouldn't say I can't wait for it to end myself. My education of the American school system lies almost entirely in what I've learnt from movies, but from what I can imagine, it's a bit different to ours. Honestly, although schooling has been worthless for the most part, there have been some subjects that I love, teachers I respect, and lessons learned that I wouldn't trade for anything. I've almost gained an affinity for my place here, but I know that it's only because I've grown enough to see it now. Back a few years back, I wouldn't have been able to understand that, but, meh, I'm growing up and moving on.

I've read 'The Fountainhead' and am up to the point in Atlas Shrugged where Dagny Taggart is on her way to see Quinten Daniels before Galt gets to him. I think I've figured out that Galt might not actually be that far away from Dagny. I always over looked his significance, but I think the anonymous 'worker' who Eddie Willers talks to might actually be John Galt. If he is, I'll be very impressed.

Other than that, I've read over a bunch of letters and various essays by Rand, including essays from the Atlas Society and the ARI, and a handful of essays with a critical analysis of Objectivism (which very rarely stemmed from superficial arguments about 'Randroids' and accusations of cult status).

I got interested in her work due to two factors: 'The Fountained' was mentioned in a novel I was reading, where the narrator talks about reading about Howard saying "I would die for you, but I won't live for you", and he comments on how people must live for themselves. It took a while for that point to really sink in. I lived my life way too selflessly through much of time before reading that book (called 'The Perks of being a Wallflower', by the way), and I thought it was a good thing that I felt an affinity with the narrator. I didn't realise that the author was actually presenting what someone shouldn't be through his protagonist, and that the book was actually about knowing who you were and what you wanted. After that, the author of a blog I read frequently, posted an entry about how he felt a profound connection with Howard Roark. I really respect this guy, so I thought I must find out who this Howard Roark is. And that's how it all started.

Edited by Tenure
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Welcome to the forum, Tenure.

I'm further confounded by the fact that I see very few individuals who value their own self-interest, even fewer who are morally better for it and very, very few who I could say are happy for it (if any). I remember reading Ayn Rand saying that she wrote to tell people that these heroes do exist, and that happiness is possible, but I still remain to be convinced.

If you stick arround long enough you may meet more of them :thumbsup:

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I got interested in her work due to two factors: 'The Fountained' was mentioned in a novel I was reading, where the narrator talks about reading about Howard saying "I would die for you, but I won't live for you", and he comments on how people must live for themselves. It took a while for that point to really sink in. I lived my life way too selflessly through much of time before reading that book (called 'The Perks of being a Wallflower', by the way), and I thought it was a good thing that I felt an affinity with the narrator.

That's interesting. That book convinced me to read The Fountainhead, as well. I already knew about Ayn Rand, but I really liked The Perks of Being a Wallflower, so I decided to read TF next.

Edited by Mimpy
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Welcome to the forum, Tenure.

I'm further confounded by the fact that I see very few individuals who value their own self-interest, even fewer who are morally better for it and very, very few who I could say are happy for it (if any).

I am happy for my self-interest despite the arguments my stating it has caused.

I should say who I am, afterall, I should know who I am, right? :thumbsup:

I should hope so.

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Welcome to the forum! I think your emphasis on thinking correctly will do you good. Interesting that you're so interested in acting - I haven't noticed many actor-types in this forum (although perhaps that's just my own nearsightedness).

Yay for Victor Hugo! :thumbsup:

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Interesting that you're so interested in acting - I haven't noticed many actor-types in this forum (although perhaps that's just my own nearsightedness).

There seems to be a lot of software programmer types, though.

Yay for Victor Hugo! :thumbsup:

I have not read anything of his.

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There seems to be a lot of software programmer types, though.

Ironic that you'd say that in response to my comment... I think I've made up my mind to go into that.

I have not read anything of his.

You should! I'll hold off and let the creator of this thread make recommendations, though, if he wants.

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Ironic that you'd say that in response to my comment... I think I've made up my mind to go into that.

Odd timing there.

You should! I'll hold off and let the creator of this thread make recommendations, though, if he wants.

I am a bit busy with planning my own book, reading CTUI, and reading a couple of books on grammer. Besides what is it that is so good about his works? I know Ayn Rand liked them but I never found out why. Besides I want to know why you find them so interesting.

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Besides I want to know why you find them so interesting.

Me? But this thread isn't about me!

Anyway... Les Mis is, to me, spiritually moving. The characters really exemplify (to me), in many ways, what it means to be alive. Les Mis is human volition, desire, and search for value transformed into beautiful language.

(OK, that sounded extremely cheesy. You just have to read it - and I don't think you can consider yourself an educated person until you do - it is that important in the literary canon.)

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Me? But this thread isn't about me!

Anyway... Les Mis is, to me, spiritually moving. The characters really exemplify (to me), in many ways, what it means to be alive. Les Mis is human volition, desire, and search for value transformed into beautiful language.

I should read it then. It sounds interesting.

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I should read it then. It sounds interesting.

The protagonist is Jean Valjean, who as a starving young man steals a loaf of bread and is imprisoned for 19 years (or is it 27?). A very bad experience indeed. He ends up escaping from prison and starting a factory which revitalizes a town; he eventually becomes mayor. Meanwhile, Inspector Javert is trying to track down the escaped prisoner, and eventually does... Valjean also adopts an orphan girl and raises her as his own daughter.

A lot of action takes place in Parisian uprisings (1832, I believe?) - which actually happened, historically. The characters I've already mentioned are entangled with people fighting on both sides, all for noble causes.

Anyway, there's just so much more to it, and it really is well-written, but that's the basics (and I haven't told you the cool stuff, so as not to ruin it).

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I went to bed soon after my registration and first couple of posts, so sorry I'm so late to respond to all this.

I would not go to me for recommendations of reading Victor Hugo. I love his art work, I've yet to read his writing. I understand he was a great writer, and I find it stunning that he managed to do both so well. I'll take the cue from BrassDragon to read Les Mis, once I finish Atlas.

Welcome to the forum, Tenure.

If you stick around long enough you may meet more of them :thumbsup:

Well yes, I've kind of memorised who the big guns here are, and it is quite fun to imagine what their lives must be like outside the forum. Mind you, I've memorised a lot of people only by their avatar as I've scrolled through the many, many threads here, so that might be a bit awkward.

I am happy for my self-interest despite the arguments my stating it has caused.

Heh, well, it ended up with me losing a long-term girlfriend personally, so I hope that despite of arguments you are happy. I don't mean to drop something that personal in so casually, but, I'd be lying if I didn't say the confusion caused by that hasn't been a factor in wanting to find like minded individuals.

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I would not go to me for recommendations of reading Victor Hugo. I love his art work, I've yet to read his writing. I understand he was a great writer, and I find it stunning that he managed to do both so well. I'll take the cue from BrassDragon to read Les Mis, once I finish Atlas.

I am quite different. I am a good writer, but I am one of the word's worst at drawing.

Heh, well, it ended up with me losing a long-term girlfriend personally, so I hope that despite of arguments you are happy. I don't mean to drop something that personal in so casually, but, I'd be lying if I didn't say the confusion caused by that hasn't been a factor in wanting to find like minded individuals.

I would only want a girlfriend that accepted my self-esteem and had an equal sense of self-esteem. If she left me because of it I would say, "Good riddance." On that note, I once had someone try to insult me by calling me selfish. I just smiled, laughed inwardly and thought, "Are you trying to insult me or compliment me?". To me that remark is a compliment. Also my best friend had an ex try to insult him by calling him egotistical. He just laughed inwardly and thought, "Are you trying to insult me or compliment me?"

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Hah! I know what you mean! There's a friend of mine at school who really thinks very little of me, because of my supposed 'arrogance'. That is, if I try to make any claim to facts or to actually argue something as it is, rather than to say "Well it seems to me that...", she'll call me arrogant. Apparently believing in the truth is arrogance. :thumbsup:

The thing about my ex, is that I loved her for everything else, which is why I find this whole 'trading of values' thing a bit bizarre. It's meant to underpin the feeling of love, and yet I've always fallen for a girl who didn't share my values - i.e. the Christian girl.To be fair, this was probably because I only recently discovered my self-esteem).

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Hah! I know what you mean! There's a friend of mine at school who really thinks very little of me, because of my supposed 'arrogance'. That is, if I try to make any claim to facts or to actually argue something as it is, rather than to say "Well it seems to me that...", she'll call me arrogant. Apparently believing in the truth is arrogance. :thumbsup:

The same has happened to me. I have learnt that arguing that believing in the truth is not artogance is pointless as they take that as further proof of your arrogance.

The thing about my ex, is that I loved her for everything else, which is why I find this whole 'trading of values' thing a bit bizarre. It's meant to underpin the feeling of love, and yet I've always fallen for a girl who didn't share my values - i.e. the Christian girl.To be fair, this was probably because I only recently discovered my self-esteem).

Well I have very high standards of who I am going to have a romantic relationship with, i.e., a woman of the highest value to me.

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Hah! I know what you mean! There's a friend of mine at school who really thinks very little of me, because of my supposed 'arrogance'. That is, if I try to make any claim to facts or to actually argue something as it is, rather than to say "Well it seems to me that...", she'll call me arrogant. Apparently believing in the truth is arrogance. :thumbsup:

The thing about my ex, is that I loved her for everything else, which is why I find this whole 'trading of values' thing a bit bizarre. It's meant to underpin the feeling of love, and yet I've always fallen for a girl who didn't share my values - i.e. the Christian girl.To be fair, this was probably because I only recently discovered my self-esteem).

My ex in the end gave me that "arrogant" crap right before deciding to have nothing to do with me (no loss on my end, as i was about to do the same anyway after confirming certain unpleasent leads). I concluded that she felt I was exagaretting my ability to identify and deal with reality because she didnt want to beleive that I could be right, that would run the "risk" of her having to challenge some of the odd beleifs that it turns out that she has. I guess it was easier for her to pretend that my apparent abilities in that regard do not exist, and to try guilt me into ceasing preventing her evidence against her delusion.

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My ex in the end gave me that "arrogant" crap right before deciding to have nothing to do with me (no loss on my end, as i was about to do the same anyway after confirming certain unpleasent leads). I concluded that she felt I was exagaretting my ability to identify and deal with reality because she didnt want to beleive that I could be right, that would run the "risk" of her having to challenge some of the odd beleifs that it turns out that she has. I guess it was easier for her to pretend that my apparent abilities in that regard do not exist, and to try guilt me into ceasing preventing her evidence against her delusion.

Tenure in case you did not figure it out Prometheus is the friend I spoke of. But I assume you did from the context.

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Tenure in case you did not figure it out Prometheus is the friend I spoke of. But I assume you did from the context.

Oh yeah, and as Kane said I had laughed at her at the time, and I explained it. As I predicated, she seemed confused and recoiled and that was the last time we communicated in any way (apart from a few minutes after a tiny confusion about something unrelated). After spending so long pretending that my open expression of my abilities and my evident pride was a good thing, only to then make it clear she never valued such and hated such, good riddance.

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Oh yeah, and as Kane said I had laughed at her at the time, and I explained it. As I predicated, she seemed confused and recoiled and that was the last time we communicated in any way (apart from a few minutes after a tiny confusion about something unrelated). After spending so long pretending that my open expression of my abilities and my evident pride was a good thing, only to then make it clear she never valued such and hated such, good riddance.

And I laughed when he told me about it. She also at that time put the lie to her claim to support my open expression of confidence in my abilities and pride. I also suspect that she either pretended to like the peices of writing I sent her or she never read them.

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And I laughed when he told me about it. She also at that time put the lie to her claim to support my open expression of confidence in my abilities and pride. I also suspect that she either pretended to like the peices of writing I sent her or she never read them.

It was the last I would wager. She is the sort of person that have read it just in case you asked questions about it (she was not the sort to concede her lie so easily) and I suspect based on what else I heard (and despite what she might have said) that she would have felt obliged to read it merely because you sent it to her. Also it would have futhered her pretense to be interested in your affairs (and therefore whatever her main agenda might have been).

Anyway, back on topic. :thumbsup:

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That's weird. My ex didn't hate my arrogance so much. In fact, she liked it and claimed that it was part of what made me 'sexy' (gotta say, only person who ever described me as sexy :thumbsup:). The problem for her was that she was a Christian, and in the true sense of what being a Christian means, not just a sunday-church one. She believed she had a relationship with Jesus, that he had some sort of automagical rule over her actions, that she was less than him, etc etc. Of course, that raised a lot of problems with the whole sex issue and marriage and all that too.... so, yeah.

Still, I find it strange that I had and still do have strong feelings (hell, we only broke up last week) for her, inspite of her delusions. Have you guys ever felt the same way?

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That's weird. My ex didn't hate my arrogance so much. In fact, she liked it and claimed that it was part of what made me 'sexy' (gotta say, only person who ever described me as sexy :thumbsup:). The problem for her was that she was a Christian, and in the true sense of what being a Christian means, not just a sunday-church one. She believed she had a relationship with Jesus, that he had some sort of automagical rule over her actions, that she was less than him, etc etc. Of course, that raised a lot of problems with the whole sex issue and marriage and all that too.... so, yeah.

Still, I find it strange that I had and still do have strong feelings (hell, we only broke up last week) for her, inspite of her delusions. Have you guys ever felt the same way?

Yeah well, my ex really lost the plot near the end, I think her own premises were kicking in, as I detected a fair bit of self-loathing there, and she was just generally unstable.

She was not religous though, that I can be sure of, I will give her that much. And she was quite smart in her way, and could work really hard at what she w as good at when she wanted to. I still find myself admiring the good things about her, and sometimes I miss those parts of her, and I find myself thinking what she cou ld have been but for her own self-deception.

She is a good example of the sort of person that could go far, do great things, but has stunted their own potential, and that always saddens me,I think that is what makes me sad more than anything else when it comes to her, that I hate to see potential squandred.

Otherwise I dont't really think of her, dwelling on many of the memories of her when longer hold much value for her for cannot do me any good. But I dont think you could say I have feelings for her, I consider her a part of my past that went a bit sour, but I dont think of her, I view her more as an example of wasted potential and a lesson or two learnt.

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