This picture is depressing.

[SkyTrooper]

I don't see any real issues with that picture. First off, you have no context.

Why spend your time judging random people on the internet and then drawing damning conclusions about society that don't follow anyway? There are way more serious issues at play right now than how people choose to dance and what people choose to celebrate.

Also, Facebook is an excellent tool to stay in touch with the people you value-- and has nothing to do with Nihilism/Collectivism, etc, etc.

Edited July 18, 2007 by badkarma556

[Qwertz]

It's not so much the behavior depicted in the photo that is disturbing (although it is certainly questionable). It's the fact that the woman depicted therein chose to put the picture on a (semi)public website. This is where the nihilism is in evidence. The nihilism doesn't come from facebook per se (although I could argue that point about some of facebook's particular features), but from how some people use it. Instead of using it as an excellent tool to stay in touch with people they value, they use it to put their most questionable behavior up on public display.

-Q

Edit: changed 'many' to 'some,' for clarity.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Qwertz

[Moebius]

I don't see any real issues with that picture. First off, you have no context.

Why spend your time judging random people on the internet and then drawing damning conclusions about society that don't follow anyway? There are way more serious issues at play right now than how people choose to dance and what people choose to celebrate.

Also, Facebook is an excellent tool to stay in touch with the people you value-- and has nothing to do with Nihilism/Collectivism, etc, etc.

Exactly. I think some of the people are projecting their personal feelings onto this random internet photo, and somehow extrapolating a lot of unfounded things about our culture.

And yeah, okay, these guys in the picture look like fools. Maybe they are. That doesn't really say anything about people as a whole. And frankly most people have acted like retards at one point or another when they're young (and/or drunk). It doesn't justify what they do, but most of them eventually grow out of it.

Finally, the stereotypes that some people are using to judge these guys --true or not-- in no way, shape, or form represent the general population of young America.

[K-Mac]

Finally, the stereotypes that some people are using to judge these guys --true or not-- in no way, shape, or form represent the general population of young America.

I hope you're right. I do not have children and I am not part of "young America" so my views of generations younger than mine come mostly from the trash on TV and the internet that they seem to enjoy. I was quite surprised and happy to see so many young people on this forum when I joined up not long ago. Perhaps things aren't as bleak as they seem?

[Moebius]

I hope you're right. I do not have children and I am not part of "young America" so my views of generations younger than mine come mostly from the trash on TV and the internet that they seem to enjoy. I was quite surprised and happy to see so many young people on this forum when I joined up not long ago. Perhaps things aren't as bleak as they seem?

Well, TV is probably not a very reliable picture of what young people are like.

I don't know. For every completely ignorant asshole I meet, there is usually at least one intelligent and decent human being. The rest are somewhere in between (and probably confused in one way or another). Almost all of them though will accept reason if it is explained to them on a personal basis.

But then, I grew up in a more or less middle-upper class, college educated background. So my views are limited by my experience. But hell, even when I was in college and rented a house with five other roommates in the middle of the ghetto, I found that even the 22 year old crack dealer next door will listen to reason when you sit him down over a six pack and talk to him in person.

[K-Mac]

Well, TV is probably not a very reliable picture of what young people are like.

Precisely why I called it trash.

[eudaemonist]

I don't see any real issues with that picture. First off, you have no context.

Maybe she lost her contact lens in his crotch and was just looking for it. Maybe that one guy is a chiropractor and he bent his patient over as part of a spinal alignment exercise. Maybe those aren't beer cans at all, but clever mockups designed by CIA counterintelligence to pass fake documents to North Korea --that's not a bar, it's a dead drop site. Yeah, that's it.

If you can think of any other context in which this picture doesn't depict people who are, quote, "shit faced and acting like monkeys," I'm all ears.

Edited July 18, 2007 by eudaemonist

[SkyTrooper]

If you can think of any other context in which this picture doesn't depict people who are, quote, "shit faced and acting like monkeys," I'm all ears.

If you are seriously bothered by that picture then DO NOT do a Google image search for "Cancun Spring Break Party."

Maybe they are celebrating: they just graduated from a difficult engineering school. Maybe they just got back from a tour in Iraq. Maybe they are scientists and just found the cure to a debilitating disease. Honestly I don't know, and I don't care because I don't know them.

[Inspector]

If you can think of any other context in which this picture doesn't depict people who are, quote, "shit faced and acting like monkeys," I'm all ears.

Yes, pray tell do provide some argument that this is anything else than loathsome, degenerate buffoonery. And since they posted it up, buffoonery they are proud of. What context would make this into non-nihilistic behavior?

Maybe they are celebrating: they just graduated from a difficult engineering school. Maybe they just got back from a tour in Iraq. Maybe they are scientists and just found the cure to a debilitating disease. Honestly I don't know, and I don't care because I don't know them.

How would being graduates, soldiers, or scientists make the behavior depicted any different from what it is? Edited July 19, 2007 by Inspector

[RationalBiker]

I think the issue for some people is that since they posted it for all the world to see, without themselves explaining the context, its a pretty self-deprecating image. I'm certainly no prude, people can read my comments in the various sex threads that I use to participate in for proof, but this photo goes to addressing their dignity for themselves.

If dignity and self-respect aren't big ticket items, I could see why someone might say, "I don't see anything wrong with that." However, some folks value dignity and self-respect.

Yea, sure, perhaps there is some lofty context involved that makes it "okay". But the most probable, simplest explaination is these folks are highly intoxicated and acting stupid. I see drunk people acting stupid day in and day out. Occam's Razor folks.

I won't hazard speculation on what this says about society as a whole.

[SkyTrooper]

How would being graduates, soldiers, or scientists make the behavior depicted any different from what it is?

So you see "thou shalt not grind your crotch on a girl's butt" as a sort of categorical imperative, completely divorced from context?

Hedonism is certainly a dangerous philosophy, but not nearly as bad as the type of religious beliefs that declare dancing to be immoral. These are young kids having fun. Note that their clothing is all on and they arn't snorting Cocaine or reading Marx.

[Inspector]

So you see "thou shalt not grind your crotch on a girl's butt" as a sort of categorical imperative, completely divorced from context?

Hedonism is certainly a dangerous philosophy, but not nearly as bad as the type of religious beliefs that declare dancing to be immoral. These are young kids having fun. Note that their clothing is all on and they arn't snorting Cocaine or reading Marx.

Excuse me?

I said that regardless of whether they are scientists or whatever, they are still drunk and grinding against each other in public while everyone watches. It is degenerate buffoonery. If it is rocket scientists engaging in degenerate buffoonery then that changes nothing. So your previous argument made no sense to me.

No need to invoke the boogey man of categorical imperatives, divorced from context. I will kill that idea right here: they could be rehearsing for a play. There, no out-of-context zealotry. (but of course you know that isn't what they are doing)

But now you've said something interesting. "These are young kids having fun." Please explain how this is "fun" for someone who isn't a degenerate.

[RationalBiker]

Speaking as someone who is 43 now, but used to be 20-something, I'd say "degenerate" may be a harsh term. If no one else will, I'll admit I did some stupid, embarrassing things when I was younger (though perhaps not quite like that). I've seen intoxicated people act a fool and be ENTIRELY different when they were sober. Alcohol reduces inhibitions, massive alcohol doubly so. It's quite possible that these people do not behave like this when they are sober. So they might have issues with "the sauce", yet still not be "degenerates". There is a decent chance that they could mature out of that behavior.

[Inspector]

I don't disagree with you, RB, that alcohol makes people act differently when abused. But I do think the label "degenerate" is the one that fits, nonetheless.

The idea that being an intoxicated idiot who debases him/herself sexually in public to a cheering crowd qualifies as "fun" is what is degenerate.

If someone just got drunk, acted foolish, and regretted it, that would be different. To deliberately engage in this as "fun" is on a different level from that. If they are only degenerates when on "the sauce" but still seek this state out actively as "fun" and are later proud of it and post it up on the web for all to see, then I don't think that it being a "sauced only" situation mitigates it.

Now from the picture alone we do not know that this isn't a set of ordinary people who can't hold their liquor and accidentally got drunk and aren't normally like that at all. But we don't just have the picture; we have the context and the comments included with it, which I think do tell the rest of the story.

To be clear I mean the term "degenerate" this way:

Utterly reprehensible in nature or behavior: corrupt, depraved, flagitious, miscreant, perverse, rotten, unhealthy, villainous.

[K-Mac]

It's quite possible that these people do not behave like this when they are sober. So they might have issues with "the sauce", yet still not be "degenerates". There is a decent chance that they could mature out of that behavior.

Maybe that's what bothers me most about the photo. More and more people seem to be abusing alcohol. If not drinking every day like the traditional alcoholic, then binge drinking on weekends which may be worse and is probably what caused the behavior in the photo. Throughout my high school days up until now, Generation Xers (and younger) seem to like to use, "oh, I was just drunk" as an excuse for their bad behavior. If this binge drinking is causing bad behavior each weekend, is it worthy of being excused? And where do we draw the line?

I guess my point is, the fact that they are abusing alcohol is the problem. Why is abusing alcohol a problem? Because it makes you look and act like something you may not really be, a degenerate.

I guess another underlying question is, what is it about today's society that makes our younger generations feel the need to escape it all by getting so blitzed on alcohol and/or drugs that they temporarily turn into degenerates a few days each week? Is their quality of life that bad?

[eudaemonist]

Drunks are still morally accountable for their behavior. If you don't like/can't control how you act when intoxicated, it's up to you to make sure you don't get that way.

I don't drink because I care about my health and hate feeling sick. But why is it that the handful times I've hit the champagne pretty hard, I've NEVER made a disgusting fool of myself, picked a fight, or had sex with strangers or acquaintances? I'm talking over the span of an entire lifetime. Not once. Self respect, maybe?? It couldn't be more obvious that people are looking for an excuse to do whatever they want. "Oh I was drunk" is a convenient excuse that doesn't really hold water. Unless someone spiked your punch, you knew exactly what you were about to do to yourself and the state of mind you were inducing. God, I hate feeling muddled and blurry. Why so many people choose to drift through life in a mindless, drug-induced twilight haze I'll never know.

Here's a thought experiment for you: what statement would this charming tableau make (and what sense of life would this express) if, instead of a picture, it were rendered as a sculpture in white marble? I can easily see Jeff Koons or any number of contemporary artists doing something similar.

Horrifying, really.

[SkyTrooper]

Excuse me?

I said that regardless of whether they are scientists or whatever, they are still drunk and grinding against each other in public while everyone watches. It is degenerate buffoonery. If it is rocket scientists engaging in degenerate buffoonery then that changes nothing. So your previous argument made no sense to me.

No need to invoke the boogey man of categorical imperatives, divorced from context. I will kill that idea right here: they could be rehearsing for a play. There, no out-of-context zealotry. (but of course you know that isn't what they are doing)

But now you've said something interesting. "These are young kids having fun." Please explain how this is "fun" for someone who isn't a degenerate.

What, specificaly, makes you draw the conclusion that these people are depraved? Is it dancing in general, or just "griding" that you dislike?

For example, look at this Degenerate Buffoonery.

Here is a picture of a guy grinding his leg on a girl's crotch and kissing her in front of everyone! Much worse, right?

[K-Mac]

For example, look at this Degenerate Buffoonery.

Here is a picture of a guy grinding his leg on a girl's crotch and kissing her in front of everyone! Much worse, right?

I suppose it's just opinion, but I find this scenario to be classy and romantic. The two performers are dancing, not grinding, and seem to be full of passion, grace and elegance. It's a carefully choreographed and rehearsed, athletic routine.

The people in the photo we've been discussing are not performing for an audience in some sort of scheduled event. (I guess technically they are, but I doubt anyone would pay to see it.) They are not full of passion, grace or elegance, but rather full of crudeness, booze and lust.

[RationalBiker]

What, specificaly, makes you draw the conclusion that these people are depraved? Is it dancing in general, or just "griding" that you dislike?

Are they actually "dancing"? Aside from some mention of the "bunny hop", and Mammon's comment that they are on "the dance floor", it looks to me lilke they are on a deck, and several people in the background are just standing around.

I do not agree that the picture you attempt to use in comparison is effective in trying to make your point. The context of your photo is far more clear and not at all the same.

Also, you are getting a bit on the sarcastic side in questioning whether Inspector takes issue with "dancing in general". You also did it with your "thou shalt not" question. Stick to discussing the ideas please.

Edited July 19, 2007 by RationalBiker

[RationalBiker]

Drunks are still morally accountable for their behavior.

Agreed. I hope it wasn't my post that you took to mean otherwise.

But in the fuller context of my comments, it's important to recognize there may also be a maturity issue.

I'm not giving them a pass. Likewise, but based on the available information I find it hard to hang these folks out to dry.

[Qwertz]

Omniscience is not a prerequisite for moral evaluation. The original photograph does not lack context. The photograph itself contains numerous contextual clues. The setting wherein the photograph was published also provides context. Given that context, the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn is that which has so far been presented: that the photograph depicts morally degenerate behavior, and that its subsequent posting on facebook is nihilistic in the extreme. badkarma556: You cannot merely make an arbitrary claim like "[m]aybe they are scientists and just found the cure to a debilitating disease" without providing some evidence to suggest that such a statement is true. Likewise you cannot ignore what context we do have by dismissing this as just "young kids having fun." If you have an alternative evaluation, we would be happy to hear it. I for one would love for them to simply be shooting a fictional film, but there just isn't any evidence to suggest that, and the facebook context strongly suggests otherwise. Any alternative evaluation will need to be based on, and consistent with, the context that does exist for the photograph.

-Q

[SkyTrooper]

Also, you are getting a bit on the sarcastic side in questioning whether Inspector takes issue with "dancing in general". You also did it with your "thou shalt not" question. Stick to discussing the ideas please.

Ok. I havn't really treated the topic with any seriousness yet, but I'll try.

badkarma556: You cannot merely make an arbitrary claim like "[m]aybe they are scientists and just found the cure to a debilitating disease" without providing some evidence to suggest that such a statement is true. Likewise you cannot ignore what context we do have by dismissing this as just "young kids having fun." If you have an alternative evaluation, we would be happy to hear it. I for one would love for them to simply be shooting a fictional film, but there just isn't any evidence to suggest that, and the facebook context strongly suggests otherwise. Any alternative evaluation will need to be based on, and consistent with, the context that does exist for the photograph.

Here is my evaluation: You do not have enough information to make the judgement that the people dancing in that photo are depraved. The use of alchohol in moderation is not bad, unless you come to the conclusion that small amounts of alcohol are bad for you (which as far as I know is not medically supported). Although the particular dance move reflects badly on the Pride of the girl in the picture, it is fairly common/socially acceptable and she probably hasn't put a lot of thought into it. You also do not know if these people have known each other for a long time or if they just picked up the girl at the bar. I would guess they have known each other for a while since most girls would be oppossed to dancing like that with someone they've just met. You also do not know if these people act like this every night or only when they are celebrating.

Additionally the fact that the people involved can afford to go to bars, own a digital camera, a computer, and have a facebook account (they went to college), all suggest to me that they are probably young professionals that engage in some kind of productive work during the week. These are probably not people I would hang out with, but I don't see them as a threat to me.

Edited July 19, 2007 by badkarma556

[Inspector]

What, specificaly, makes you draw the conclusion that these people are depraved? Is it dancing in general, or just "griding" that you dislike?

It is not one thing about it; it is the entire context involved. You can tell from the picture, where it was posted, and the comments, what these peoples' idea of "fun" is.

(RB is right; please keep the sarcasm out of it. If you don't see a difference between the tango and that, then we've got bigger problems.)

Here is my evaluation: You do not have enough information to make the judgement that the people dancing in that photo are depraved.

Let's start with this question - do you agree with my statement:

The idea that being an intoxicated idiot who debases him/herself sexually in public to a cheering crowd qualifies as "fun" is what is degenerate.

Before we can proceed to an evaluation of the people involved, we first have to settle the issue of what the moral status is of thinking that being an intoxicated idiot who debases him/herself sexually in public to a cheering crowd qualifies as "fun."

The use of alchohol in moderation is not bad, unless you come to the conclusion that small amounts of alcohol are bad for you (which as far as I know is not medically supported).

This is an aside, but it is medically supported for some.

Although the particular dance move reflects badly on the Pride of the girl in the picture, it is fairly common/socially acceptable and she probably hasn't put a lot of thought into it.

Does social acceptability change the moral status of an act? Does the fact that someone "hasn't put a lot of thought into it" excuse anything?

These are probably not people I would hang out with, but I don't see them as a threat to me.

First of all, whether they are a threat wasn't an issue, so that was a straw man. But now that you mention it...

My wife just recently treated a man for a follow up from the ER. He had a concussion, bruises over all of his body, several stitches, two black eyes, and a rather nasty welt on the back of his head. What did he do to deserve this? He saw a drunk man who was smashing his own car to pieces with a crow bar because he had locked his keys inside and was too sloshed to call a locksmith (or a cab, because where was he going to drive in that state?). This patient simply walked up to Mr. Sloshed and was going to try and talk some sense into him. The drunk thought that the patient was trying to attack him (or something) and sucker punched him with the crow bar. The patient doesn't remember anything after that, but witnesses say the drunk had to be pried off of him; he was rhythmically and continually beating him. If other people hadn't intervened, the drunk would have surely beat him to death.

She came home and told me that story just before I posted the blog entry I referenced earlier. I had planned to tone it down a tad, but after that I decided to leave it as is.

[eudaemonist]

How's this for context:

Well, I also have to add that the guys in the picture were talking about how dancing with them is the "hilight of dat bitchs life" (spelling errors intact). It's depressing because there are tons of pictures of these despicable bozos with tons of different girls.

"hilight of dat bitchs life" hardly sounds like the way you'd talk about your girlfriend, or anyone you respected. Can you explain how this statement could come from anybody but a cretinous scumbag? Maybe if we got the URL for the whole rotten page you could explain it to us better.

lthough the particular dance move reflects badly on the Pride of the girl in the picture, it is fairly common/socially acceptable and she probably hasn't put a lot of thought into it.

So it's okay that she's debasing herself as long as lots of other people debase themselves too? I know I only got here yesterday--what kind of forum am I on, again?? The idea you can assume anything positive about people who go to bars, own a computer and a camera and make a page like this blows my mind. It really does.

Edited July 19, 2007 by eudaemonist

[Qwertz]

I think we already had a thread about public sex acts. I don't see how a simulated public sex act is ideologically any different. Photographing a simulated public sex act and posting that photograph in an even more public forum says many things. A lack of self-respect. A lack of respect for others who might see the simulated sex act or photograph. A lack of appreciation for the role of sex. I don't see how any of the factors you listed:

• the commonality or social acceptability of the behavior;
  
• the parties' willful ignorance about the nature and consequences of the behavior;
  
• the parties' familiarity with each other;
  
• the frequency with which the parties engage in this sort of behavior;
  
• whether the parties are celebrating an accomplishment;
  
• the parties' personal wealth; or
  
• the parties' occupations
  

excuses or mitigates the fact that they performed a simulated sex act in public and posted a photograph of it on a public website, and laughed about it.

-Q