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You'd be surprised at the kinds of things scumbags try to pull on women: I've had loser perverts try to rub their hard-ons against me on the subway, on the bus, in a crowd, at a high school pep rally, at work, while swing dancing, at the hairdresser, etc. Putting a hip hop beat to it doesn't make it any more okay. Or less likely to make me knee them in the groin and/or punch them in the face.

Eudaemonist,

Please go out and buy yourself a Tazer immediately. Also, in all seriousness, I reccommend taking Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

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Well, that's New York for you. Any single woman who's halfway decent-looking and alone knows the routine...sometimes, it's a real fight to stay upbeat and not automatically assume the worst. Actually, my dad's been encouraging me to get out on the range with a Glock .40. :D

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I can't believe that you mean the above honestly (i.e. literally, as opposed to an exaggeration for the sake of argument). Are you trying to tell me that you literally don't know the difference between the Tango and just rubbing your crotch against a girl on the dance floor? "Grinding" is not a form of dance at all. It is not a sexually suggestive stylization. It is not some kind of sexy dance that went a little too far. It is just the rubbing of private parts against each other. Period. It is categorically different from the Tango, Salsa, and any other form of dance.

"Rubbing of private parts against each other" is hardly what grinding is. It's about as accurate as saying Tango consists entirely of leg groping.

Makes me wonder if you've ever actually seen people grind at all, let alone actually tried it. Most people don't just walk up to girls and start rubbing their crotch on them, even if they're grinding -- unless you're dancing with your girlfriend or something. If you honestly think that crotch rubbing equals grinding, I suggest you try it at a club to a random girl. My guess is you will probably get a slap to the face and get tossed from the scene. And it is a sexually suggestive stylization, and the only real difference between grinding and say, Tango or Salsa is that it is less subtle.

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Inspector,Thanks again for the well thought out reply.
Likewise.
I don't see how I am contradicting myself. Salsa and Tango are not the same as Grinding: granted. If Grinding is dancing, than I agree that Grinding is worse qua dancing than Salsa and Tango. However, you say it is not dancing at all. I asked what objective criteria can be used to define what is a dance and what is not. How is this a contradiction? I am saying: yes "clearly there is a difference" but what makes it not a dance?
That wasn't clear from how you worded it; it sounded like the two were separate points. To answer your question, in order to consider something a dance, I would look for there to be some actual... well, dancing going on. This "grinding" business is just rubbing crotches on the dance floor. That's it; nothing else.
Although you insisted earlier that claiming grinding as sex is not part of your explanation, havn't you (and others) used solely that statement to prove your point? Taking the form of:1) [implied dilemma] Grinding is either sex or it is dancing2) Grinding is not dancing3) Therefore, grinding is sex
I don't know where you got that from, but I didn't use that form. I entirely used the direct approach. "Frottage" is spot on, by the way.
So although I know there is more to sex than just vaginal, it seems like a conceptual disaster to define every time my clothed crotch comes in contact with something as "sex."
That's because you missed the key words "and pleasure from." Not just contact, but contact plus pleasure. Go on and read Dr. Peikoff's definition again. I didn't agree with it at first, but after some thought I see that he's right.
M16 rifles
Okay, I just had to laugh at this. I'm picturing a guy taking the rifle behind the couch, looking around to make sure nobody's watching, and then you see him moving around from the thrusting... Possibly to Dick Dale's Commanche.../possibly because I'm not too far off from that remark...
That's not what I said. If sexuality is wrong, in itself, then we must all be reduced to burkas. If sexuality is good, in itself, then we should all be copulating in a big pile in the middle of times square. There are contexts where sexualty is good and contexts where it is bad.
Exactly. So why throw the burka thing at me when I say that there are contexts where it is bad, when that's what you think too?
I was just letting you know, as an aside, that my default position is generally the opposite of the people who try to kill me.
Well, be careful with that. I can think of many crazy people with viewpoints that, if you did the opposite of what they say you would be just as bad off as if you did exactly what they said.
This follows if grind-dancing is not dancing, but is actually sex. I'm not convinced that it is.
As I said, it does not depend on it actually being sex. It is enough that it represents and is a direct result of that depraved view of sex.
Girls can dress sexy without looking like sluts.
Yes. But that doesn't really address my point. It's not a matter of how good-looking or well-dressed a person is. It's that dressing slutty is born of a certain viewpoint of sexuality. See below:
Now a guy that has only one criteria, girls dressed like whores, has basically no standards whatsoever. Those men and the women that try to attract them are self-deprecating nihilists.
That's what I mean.

If you honestly think that crotch rubbing equals grinding, I suggest you try it at a club to a random girl. My guess is you will probably get a slap to the face and get tossed from the scene.
I will politely decline your suggestion.Seriously, though, I do think that crotch rubbing equals grinding. That's what it is. Yes, there is some kind of elaborate permission ritual involved first. That doesn't change the fact. Edited by Inspector
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You'd be surprised at the kinds of things scumbags try to pull on women: I've had loser perverts try to rub their hard-ons against me on the subway, on the bus, in a crowd, at a high school pep rally, at work, while swing dancing, at the hairdresser, etc. Putting a hip hop beat to it doesn't make it any more okay. Or less likely to make me knee them in the groin and/or punch them in the face.

This is truly disturbing. Do you believe that attractiveness is the only criteria that draws this kind of harassment?

My undergraduate university had more than a few isolated incidents of stalking, which is a similar but related problem. At the time I was there, there were noticeably more male students than female students. Moreover, the student population as a whole tended to be somewhat obsessive; not necessarily in the creepy, perverted sense but possibly in terms of academic focus, career ambition or just plain perfectionism. The girls who accumulated stalkers generally were usually cute but more importantly were invariably very approachable. It almost appeared that as a defense mechanism, many otherwise nice girls acted unfriendly in non-social public settings such as a library or a computing cluster.

I have also heard some terrible stories involving shameless perverts from female friends of mine who have lived in Turkey, India or various parts of Latin America. As bad as cities such as New York or Atlanta can get on these issues, I suppose things can get much worse. Needless to say, that still does not make this behavior excusable.

These perverts defile civilization.

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Seriously, though, I do think that crotch rubbing equals grinding. That's what it is. Yes, there is some kind of elaborate permission ritual involved first. That doesn't change the fact.

Your statement is about as accurate as saying that painting is just throwing paint at a canvas (albeit with some kind of elaborate creative ritual). Give me your objective definition of dancing. One that precisely explains why Tango and Salsa are dances while Grinding is not.

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Your statement is about as accurate as saying that painting is just throwing paint at a canvas (albeit with some kind of elaborate creative ritual).

Back that statement up, please. What, besides rubbing your crotch on a girl, is involved? What steps? What motions? What is it, other than frottage?

NOTHING.

That is all that "grinding" is. Period.

Edited by Inspector
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You'd be surprised at the kinds of things scumbags try to pull on women: I've had loser perverts try to rub their hard-ons against me on the subway, on the bus, in a crowd, at a high school pep rally, at work, while swing dancing, at the hairdresser, etc. Putting a hip hop beat to it doesn't make it any more okay. Or less likely to make me knee them in the groin and/or punch them in the face.

Practically speaking, anytime I wear anything the least bit revealing, men interpret it as an open invitation to proposition and harass me. I literally can't walk one block wearing shorts (or even a knee-length skirt) without getting whistled at, leered at, and frantically hit on. I cover up, not because I'm ashamed, but because I want to discourage men from treating me like a piece of ass. It doesn't work and I get hit on anyway, but it helps.

All I have to say is that I'm really glad I don't live in New York city. Ick!

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Back that statement up, please. What, besides rubbing your crotch on a girl, is involved? What steps? What motions? What is it, other than frottage?

The question is still out there as to your objective definition of "dancing".

Since I have not fully fleshed out my own definition of dancing, assume for the moment that I'm wearing my devil's advocate hat. :D

If we use the original photo as an example, and we assume that they are doing something that they consider dancing (rather than simply standing there simulating sex), I'm going to throw a couple steps and motions into the crotch-rubbing "grind" which should then make it dancing according to your questions above.

Notice that the guy to the rear has one leg extended at an odd angle. That's because the slow "Double Pen Dance" calls for this sequence of steps and motions aside from the dry humping;

Hump, hump, hump, hump, extend left leg to the left, hump, bring it back in, extend leg to the right, hump, bring it back in, hump, step backwards, spin around, step forward, hump, hump, hump. Repeat to the end of the song, which in this case is "I'm Too Sexy" by Right Said Fred. Since that's just one photo frame of the dance, we only get to see the humping part. The front guys part has more moves in it, but the girls part only involves an occasional fancy spin as the front guy becomes the back guy, and vice versa.

Is that a dance now, albiet a simple sexually suggestive one?

Likewise, let's examine what I've seen quite commonly as the "slow dance". One guy and one girl stand close to each other, he puts his arms around her waist and she puts her arms around his shoulders. They then take small steps turning in a clockwise fashion while ever so slightly swaying their hips as they go. Repeat until the end of the song, which in this case is Barry Manilow's "Could It Be Magic". (Okay, I know, I'm getting creepy.)

Is that dancing?

:ninja: : OFF ( I think anyways :) )

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This is truly disturbing. Do you believe that attractiveness is the only criteria that draws this kind of harassment?

Well, who knows. I'm definitely not approachable--and don't wear my hair down or shorts, skirts, or even short-sleeved shirts when I know I'm going to be walking alone in public anymore. You're right about being bitchy as a defense mechanism...it's easy to fall into if you aren't rationally judging people and situations on their own merits.

That's not the worst of it, either: in the space of one month, I've caught two men masturbating in the New York subway at the sight of me: one through his pants while seated in the train and one "au naturel" peeking around a pillar on a deserted platform. (In case you were wondering, both occasions I was wearing a plain black turtleneck with a simple black skirt in one case and black pants and riding boots in the other; minimal makeup with my blonde hair pulled back in a chignon. Hardly "asking for it"!) It's definitely not the first time it happened to me, either.

I complained to an attractive friend, who cynically replied: "How long have you been in New York, honey? Seems like it happens to me every week."

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That's not the worst of it, either: in the space of one month, I've caught two men masturbating in the New York subway at the sight of me: one through his pants while seated in the train and one "au naturel" peeking around a pillar on a deserted platform. (In case you were wondering, both occasions I was wearing a plain black turtleneck with a simple black skirt in one case and black pants and riding boots in the other; minimal makeup with my blonde hair pulled back in a chignon. Hardly "asking for it"!) It's definitely not the first time it happened to me, either.

How awful! I remember my x wife telling me one day she was sunbathing in a park, and there was a guy masturbating while watching her. I think that she told park authorities about it.

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You're right about being bitchy as a defense mechanism...it's easy to fall into if you aren't rationally judging people and situations on their own merits.

And it's by no means limited to women. Again, quoting myself:

Beggars.

That's on my list of reasons why I don't like going downtown.

I hate them.

They use politeness and manners - the glue that holds civilization together - as a weapon against you.

(Obviously, they use altruism, too, but I don't have any of that)

When they come up to you and start their "pitch," I just think like in LoTR, "I know what you would say, and it would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart."

But if you just cut them off with a "go away; I am not interested," then that is rude. And technically speaking, they haven't done anything but start telling a story to you. So what do you do?

The wisest course is to simply cut them off right away, so I am told. I hear that if you even let them get finished with their beg, then this is encourages them enough that they are much harder to get rid of. So effectively, they are forcing you to be rude.

And that is so rude that I can't stand it. The whole thing is an assault on my mind. The very thought of being confronted by this madness is enough to steer me away, usually.

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Is that dancing?

Is a big pile of salt with a speck of pizza on it a pizza? Pizza does contain salt, after all.

How about spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam?

An interesting epistemological quandry. If you were to add in some dance moves, could you call it a dance? Technically, perhaps.

I don't believe that, either way, my point - that it is depraved - is affected. It's still no Tango.

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Is a big pile of salt with a speck of pizza on it a pizza? Pizza does contain salt, after all.

Not really analogous, but well done on the sarcasm. Still no objective definition though.

Okay, I'll be moving on then....

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I've read everyones posts, i'm not ignoring you guys but, I wanted to get back to why I said this was depressing and to see if others had the same thoughts that I did.

In order to illustrate this more, i'm going to bring in some more "public" examples. It will it give a better grasp at this trend which is sort of defining our broader culture and, as Inspector pointed out, the most outspoken critics of it, the Religious Right, give the wrong explanation of why it is and where it comes from. I'd argue that they themselves helped and i'm cases are solely responsible for creating this.

The two examples i'm bringing are the much-publicized "beauty queen scandals." The first one, with Miss Nevada happend because pictures of her were put online, *I think* he consent as well, but I can't confirm that. Anyways, it wouldn't be a big deal if 1) It didn't accurately reflect what I see the average girl my age/her age behaving and 2) She didn't make one of the stupidiest comments ever and say "This isn't a big deal! It's just me and my friends being silly, it's not anything to fuse about!"

Let's look at what "being silly" means nowadays...

06.jpg

Having some guy lick your breast is "just being silly"...

03.jpg

Doing it to someone esle... more silly!

05.jpg

Two at the same time? That's like twice the sillyness!!!11111oneoneonewunwunwuwn

07.jpg

To top it off, pretend like you're giving Fred-Durst-Wannabe a blowjob! ITS NO BIG DEAL GUYS, JUST BEING SILLY LOLOLOLOL!!!11

If they were in private and someone was taking these photos without them knowing and publizing them... I'd feel bad for her. But, they are in a public place (looks like a bar or club) and they are clearly looking at the damn camera! How can you be that stupid!? How can someone sit here and behave like that, acknowlging someones photographing you doing it and then turn around and not expect to be judged by it? In the end she lost her crown and last interview I saw with her was still insisting that it was nothing and she's "not the type of person depicted by those pictures" ....? What the?... :dough:

Which brings up to Exhibit B... Miss New Jersey. Now, this one upsets me for different reasons. First off, the last time I watched the O'Reilly Factor was when this all went down. Miss New Jersey was getting blackmailed and decided to go on the "Most Watched Show on Cable Television" to tell the entire damn world about it. She said that the pictures weren't a big deal, that they were just her and her friends "being silly", which to me is a big red flag because that's what the other girl said... and that this wasn't a big deal, again, line-per-line exactly what the other girl said! In fact, she kept denying to even hint at what the pictures were...

Then she publicizes them because...

“You know, they’re not that bad, but they were meant to be private. And it is making me feel very vulnerable that the entire country has to see them now because of this situation.”

Here are the worst of them

070712_missnj_pix_11.hmedium.jpg

Being groped... which she insists was "acting silly" with another actor....

070712_missnj_pix_05.hmedium.jpg

Again, she has an excuse for it, saying the guy in this pic is her boyfriend, which I have trouble believing. Seemingly, she doesn't care that he is doing this to her in public, which displays a lack of self-respect on many levels for both people involved.

But heres the real kicker. I went to the hospital the day after the interview on O'Reilly. For 3 hours I was waiting in the lobby... Fox News on one T.V. and CNN on another. On CNN, they were covering a plane crash in Florida... on Fox News... they were talking non-stop about Miss New Jersey. She was the one who wanted to go public and say "I'm being blackmailed" then she get's upset when the public media won't shut up about it. Then, the pictures came from FACEBOOK! In Internet site that pretty much anyone can see the pictures that YOU AGREE to keep up!. Again, if these were taken without her consent while she was doing something in private with her boyfriend, I could understand the issue and sympathize. But these were taken, while she was staring at the damn camera and posted online on a site where you choose who can see you in what pictures and then went to the most watched news channel and ended up having millions of peoples attention directed at her...

This is just one of the biggest display of idiocy i've ever seen. It's like someone saying "I don't want to be eaten by sharks so I'm going to jump in shark-invested waters with blood and fish-guts all over myself and attempt to teach the sharks how to be nice to me by sticking my head in one of their mouths... This way, I wont be eaten!" the person does this and then yells "Help, SHARKS ARE ATTACKING ME!!" This kind of logic is what most young people my age display. Note: In both cases no one bothered to stop the girls from doing these stupid things either, no one comes to their defense when they turn into a media shark frenzy.

It's depressing because things like this happen all the time. Girls tell me "I don't want to get taken advantage of" then they go to parties and drink themselves stupid and get taken advantage of... What did they think was going to happen?! You can avoid these things if you use your damn brain and think about it for a minute.

It's also depressing because when you met a girl somewhere, like in class, you get a good impression of her. Then you go online and see stuff like this and you're respect for her is shattered. Or you see her like this at a party. She'll insist, it's just "being silly" while some guy she doesn't even know is grinding his boner all over her ass and yelling "yeah bitch, ho back that ass up you ho!" ... Then she tell's you she can't have that last drink because she has to lead her church Youth Group in the morning. (Which reminds me of something K-Mac said :) )

I know, this isn't "everyone" it's just 8 out of every 10 people I have to deal with in life.

The women who behave like this seriously devalue themselves, which is why it's self-destructive. The guys relish in it, they brag about it. While the girl says "i'm just being silly, no big deal, it wasn't what it looked like" the guy is saying "yeah that bitch was all up over me, she wanted my dick, I ruled over her, she was mine"

Which, makes it even more difficult, because you have these assholes who set out to make every decent-to-insanely-attractive-girl... "theirs" like animals marking territories. Eventually I get sick of smelling their piss everywhere. I'm sick of meeting girls to find out that she was recently conquered by 6 different guys. Why would I want to be friends with such a person, not to mention romantically involved? It's all about supply and demand. The more these girls let themselves be treated like this, the less valuable they become. I think dry-humping your spouse in public is a little more respectable then some random guy, dancing (instead of mindless dry-humping groping/things Inspector and karma are arguing over) with your spouse is the most ideal. However, if she let all these other guys do it to her, especially these assholes you hate... then what does it mean when you do it? You think to yourself "Yeah! I worked hard and got the privelege of grind-dancing with her! This is great, we're having a great time!" then 3 frat boys come and say "hey guh it fun was other nit us dance up n club u dance al trheee us at same tiem u ho is bitch ho"

You're now dry-humping something they pissed all over, and they're not happy. You're not rolling with their little Pi-Alpha-Kappa-Sigma-Phi-Baseballcap-Wearing-Collar-Popping-Pack... so they force themselves onto the girl your with and she insists "their just being silly! Their my friends lololol, it's okay to dance with my friends right!" Dancing is not what their after, getting you drunk and turning you into a submissive piece of meat, is. The ends justify the means and they will do anything, say anything and fight anyone who gets in their way.

All is fair in love and war, but this tends to turn into a war quicker then love. It's a war against nihilism incarnate in Christ's sandals. The fact that they marked this girl turns her into someone elses fuck toy instead of your girlfriend and you have to stay up all night fighting that battle alone. It comes down too to a bone-shacking thought... if she treats everyone else like this, what does it mean for me? It doesn't mean your anything special, what you have isn't exclusive anymore. You're no longer slaying dragons to get to the thing you'd risk life and limb up against fang and fire for... you're now the Allies trying to hit that shit like the beachs of Normandy with the Ayrans gunning your ass to pieces and yelling for the medic to come restore your two friends Sanity and Hope as they lie taking their last dying breath on the sands of history...

Then you're a rhonin waving perfectly crafted metal at bandits because you're sick of losing battles, you're heart withered up long ago.

In the end, you're just like one of those people attempting to go deep at one of Tenure's parties when you're mom gets scared and says, "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air."

I whistled for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said "Fresh!" and it had dice in the mirror if anything I can say this cab is rare, but I thought "Now forget it - 'Yo homes to Bel Air!" I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8 and I yelled to the cabbie "Yo homes smell ya later" I looked at my kingdom, I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air....

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You said a mouthful, Mammon. It illustrates what I'm talking about. What they consider "fun." The wider trend of which the initial picture is a part. When I see that first picture, all the rest of that comes instantly to mind. Maybe the others here just don't realize how bad it is.

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Someone last night in the chat room mentioned that they couldn't believe this thread was still going. I can. I think rational Americans are sick and tired of the irrational slut-culture infesting our young people. Paris Hilton should not be the poster child for prosperity in this country nor the idol of our little girls. When I look around at what some preteen girls are wearing these days, I think to myself, it's no wonder there are so many child predators in our society today...people are letting our children dress like hookers and they think it's cute!

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Someone last night in the chat room mentioned that they couldn't believe this thread was still going. I can. I think rational Americans are sick and tired of the irrational slut-culture infesting our young people.

I can't believe it's still going in the sense that anyone would have the gall to defend said culture. "Just kids having 'fun.'" <spits>

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Here's a horribly sad article which sums up this warped mindset in a nutshell:

One Night Only: Why some women--including me-- prefer casual sex to dating

http://www.nerve.com/personalessays/scott/onenightonly/

Eudaemonist, I saw your profile pic. You are pretty, i'll admit.

I also read what you said about the harassment you receive. Now, given the fact that you post this article and said it was wrong makes you light-years ahead of all of the 99% of all the females i've ever seen!!! You're amazing! :lol: Don't listen to people of this board, don't get a gun or a taser... get a katana. Chop those bastards who miss you you up, SAMURAI STYLE! :ninja: If you don't i'll find you and do it for you...

I'd point out and discuss what's wrong in that article, but it's every damn word and it's dripping with everything I hate about the world and almost everything I hate about women (if she threw some 'I love Jesus' and 'What happens at Place X stays at Place X' I would of been done for).

But i'm glad to see a woman in New York disagrees... find this girl for me, slap her, and tell her to get her ass in the kitchen and make me a sandwitch! :pimp:

You said a mouthful, Mammon. It illustrates what I'm talking about. What they consider "fun." The wider trend of which the initial picture is a part. When I see that first picture, all the rest of that comes instantly to mind. Maybe the others here just don't realize how bad it is.

Eehhh, your mouthfuls carry a lot better then mine. :P

Maybe it's not a question of "bad" but "what" ... I don't think they know what they are looking at exactly. But, bad, in degrees. It's like a virus spread through out a patients body and they say "Ahhhh.. it's no big deal! Live like your dying, right? That's my favorite song! I don't need medicine, God will take care of it." or "Living makes me feel trapped" (See eudaemonists posted article).

Someone last night in the chat room mentioned that they couldn't believe this thread was still going. I can. I think rational Americans are sick and tired of the irrational slut-culture infesting our young people. Paris Hilton should not be the poster child for prosperity in this country nor the idol of our little girls. When I look around at what some preteen girls are wearing these days, I think to myself, it's no wonder there are so many child predators in our society today...people are letting our children dress like hookers and they think it's cute!

Someone talked about it in the chat? Was it Tenure? Did it remind him of that time he saw a slutty girl at a party?

Joking aside, I agree with your anaylsis. I do, however, wonder if it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Which came first? Paris-Lindsey-Britney or the girls who act like them? Like Britney Spears, her downward spiral seems almost mirrored in exact to girls her age at large. Same with Paris and Lohan. It's like some kind of cultural meme equilibrium. Look at the fashion world, how the hell do all these women dress the same and at the same time?... If they're ideas of what to wear spread as fast as who to date and how to treat yourself, then it's no wonder this is observed so much.

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Eehhh, your mouthfuls carry a lot better then mine. :ninja:

This from the man who said the following:

I'd point out and discuss what's wrong in that article, but it's every damn word and it's dripping with everything I hate about the world and almost everything I hate about women (if she threw some 'I love Jesus' and 'What happens at Place X stays at Place X' I would of been done for).

Well said, sir. Just remember guys: there are still good ones out there. They're rare, but they're out there. Don't let the scum get you down.

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The slow degradation of our culture is nothing new; it can be seen in wealthy societies in history such as the Romans or the French. Slowly but surely they slide down the slope of decadence, growing soft as the wonders they built crumble under their own immorality. Rome took the human rights from neighboring countries and it eventually came crashing down on them as they looted the surrounding countries. The French Monarchy is similar, though in a more localized range. America is different though. Instead of a major conflict, we are slowly denying our rights and degrading our lives. I'm not sure if the pictures are in context or not, but they certainly do clash with the Bible quotes and such that grace their facebook pages.

I live in a part of New York State that is relatively isolated, and it is even evident here. A cheerleader at my high school got drunk at a party, stripped while people took pictures, and wondered why the school found out. The part that astounds me the most though, is that people felt sorry for her because they claimed that she didn't do this kind of thing too often. I asked if it made it any less moral or stupid, and often the person would roll their eyes at me because "this was different".

Just another disturbing flash of images that represents what we are becoming. It may not be everyone, and they may have their different reasons, but one can't deny that it is not a good sign.

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The slow degradation of our culture is nothing new; it can be seen in wealthy societies in history such as the Romans or the French.

...And not-so-wealthy societies such as Weimar Germany. But you're right about the decadence and cultural death-spiral things.

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The slow degradation of our culture is nothing new; it can be seen in wealthy societies in history such as the Romans or the French. Slowly but surely they slide down the slope of decadence, growing soft as the wonders they built crumble under their own immorality. Rome took the human rights from neighboring countries and it eventually came crashing down on them as they looted the surrounding countries. The French Monarchy is similar, though in a more localized range. America is different though. Instead of a major conflict, we are slowly denying our rights and degrading our lives. I'm not sure if the pictures are in context or not, but they certainly do clash with the Bible quotes and such that grace their facebook pages.

You know, you're right, there is a connection between wealth and immorality. But I don't think wealth causes immorality. You didn't say anything like that; i'm not putting these words in your mouths. But I think the connection is between peoples attitudes toward wealth. I don't think some people appreciate and understand wealth or where it comes from. I think, beneath the surface, they take the wealth the division of labor and private modes of production have made for them. They demand their whims be catered too because they think this system was built for them and to serve them. It wasn't. It was built for me so I can paid for the work I do, so I have a reason to go out of my way to take care of your stupid bitchy ass. I'm not your slave, the universe doesn't bow at your feet, and neither do I. If it weren't for money you throw around, I wouldn't be here. You can make your own damn food, your own shoes, your own damn computer, your own damn house. Don't take these for granted. Also, don't take the people you do these things for, for granted either. Don't expect anything from people just because you exist. Don't expect them do get off their lazy ass and give you want because you asked for it, don't expect to be given money or products either.

Someone needs to take the motor out.

I say that, because, the attitude with these people towards money is amazing. They basically expect to have money all the time, even when they don't do anything for it. Usually they have parents who give them money. Shit, even my parents give me money in college. However, I get about $30 to $50 for food and that's it. I know some people who get 300-500 just because. I know of one girl who gets $3,000 a month and spends all of it! The point is, they spend their money with no real regards for anything. While i'm struggling between eating ramen or ham sandwitchs, people down the hall from are fleshing out 3 times my monthly food budget for alcohol.

I know some people have learned better because they tell me how, in highschool, their parents gave them everything and in college they cut them off. The first thing they tell me they learn? A better appreciation for money.

You, Quin, bring up the point about the Bible quotes... which feeds directly into this. In South, people seem to have this idea that God blessed them with money. God wants them to be rich (He wants me too be poor and suffer, according to this logic). Whenever their parents throw more money at them, they reveal in how much God has blessed them with a great family and they must be morally right, because, why else would God give them money. It's like this: "I go out and party myself stupid, and then the next day I get $500 deposited in my bank account from parents/work or whatever... GOD MUST WANT ME TO HAVE MONEY TO GO OUT AND PARTY!!!"

I'm not kidding, people have actually said stuff like this! Which flows into your next point...

I live in a part of New York State that is relatively isolated, and it is even evident here. A cheerleader at my high school got drunk at a party, stripped while people took pictures, and wondered why the school found out. The part that astounds me the most though, is that people felt sorry for her because they claimed that she didn't do this kind of thing too often. I asked if it made it any less moral or stupid, and often the person would roll their eyes at me because "this was different".

Just another disturbing flash of images that represents what we are becoming. It may not be everyone, and they may have their different reasons, but one can't deny that it is not a good sign.

It's, like I said earlier, the universe revolves around them. So... do whatever the fuck you want because, if the existence is just here for your whims, how could it be wrong?! It's not your fault, it's societies fault and Jesus will forgive you because i'm sure this man would of loved to think about your drunk ass stripping at a party while he was bleeding to death on a cross.

The worst is that, they don't take personal resposibility. If people showed some remorse, some sign that the have actually thought about it and realized it was wrong, then it wouldn't be show disgusting. Basically, they expect no consquences, not to be judged, not too have anything taken away from them because of their actions. It's, as i've said, equivalent to declaring the universe is supposed to bow to your capricious whims.

That's, the worst sign I think.

Also, the dethroned Miss Neveda is going to be on Dr. Phil come Friday. I'd like to see what she says, but as I recalled last time she was on T.V. talking about this she just claimed it was no big deal and that her and her friends were "just being silly!"

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But I don't think wealth causes immorality.
No, the right word is "allows". In a basically moral society, huge wealth is possible. OMG LOLZ I just bought a new vehicle for a whole year's salary of 20 year's ago and I paid cash. (This is true, I really did, today). A moral society where people act on principle and understand the difference between right acts and wrong ones makes possible the creation of stunning wealth, and dramatically lessons the consequences of immoral acts (acts that formerly would have led to certain death may now simply lead to some necessary payments). The earlier tight correlation between morality and life -- or, immorality and the ultimate wage to be paid for it -- has loosened, and this allows people to conclude that morality is a silly optional add-on that is the concern of uptight fuddy-duddies.
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