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Can you love someone you can't respect?

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I have found myself, for a great deal of time, attracted to someone for whom I hold no great degree of intellectual respect.

She is by no means "slow" or "dim-witted"; she is, however, an evader. She dodges keystones of reality that are presented to her - she also evades simple statements that have no valid refutation with such statements as "but I feel that it's right" and "that's just your opinion, I'm entitled to my own! (without at all supporting this opinion of hers)".

There are moments in our conversations where I feel a deep-seeded disrespect toward her intellectual outlook on life, yet, as soon as these conversations end, I feel a ridiculously powerful and irresistible affinity for her. I get the whole "butterflies in the stomach" bit every time that I think of her.

But I cannot rationally envision myself ever "loving" her.

I'm stumped. :confused:

EDIT: in case it is not clear, I have felt this incredible attraction for more than half a year.

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I have found myself, for a great deal of time, attracted to someone for whom I hold no great degree of intellectual respect.

She is by no means "slow" or "dim-witted"; she is, however, an evader. She dodges keystones of reality that are presented to her - she also evades simple statements that have no valid refutation with such statements as "but I feel that it's right" and "that's just your opinion, I'm entitled to my own! (without at all supporting this opinion of hers)".

There are moments in our conversations where I feel a deep-seeded disrespect toward her intellectual outlook on life, yet, as soon as these conversations end, I feel a ridiculously powerful and irresistible affinity for her. I get the whole "butterflies in the stomach" bit every time that I think of her.

But I cannot rationally envision myself ever "loving" her.

I'm stumped. :confused:

EDIT: in case it is not clear, I have felt this incredible attraction for more than half a year.

I would think that the very first question which you need to answer is: Are you attracted to her for other good qualities that she has, or are you attracted to her for the bad qualities that you named? If the former then you might have more of a practical problem to resolve. If the latter, that would hint at more of a psychological problem to resolve.

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well, I think this may be a psychological thing. Did you admirer her from afar for a long period of time? Often when you have a crush and dont pursue it for a while, you tend to imagine what that person will be like. Eventually, you make that person mean more to you than they rationally should, and you often build them up better than they could ever possibly be. And i think this is that case. I think you need to evaluate what you value. Then rank where she places in those values. Do you value physical beauty? How much? Do you value her company? How much? Do you value rationality? How much? Do you value intelligence? How much? Does her religious preference matter? Things like that need to be re evaluated and you need to decide whether you will ever love her. And whether the relationship is ever going to grow. You may need more time, and to really have a good conversation with her. Tell her what bothers you, and talk about how the relationship could be strengthened by whatever it is that you need. Being open and respecting the person you are with leads to the best relationships.

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I would think that the very first question which you need to answer is: Are you attracted to her for other good qualities that she has, or are you attracted to her for the bad qualities that you named? If the former then you might have more of a practical problem to resolve. If the latter, that would hint at more of a psychological problem to resolve.

Stephen: I believe that I am attracted to her for her good qualities - the problem is that, when describing these qualities, they sound quite pitiful next to the things that I'm not attracted to (irrationality, evasion, subjectivism, arbitrary living, etc.).

I believe the main reason that I am attracted to her is that I like her mannerisms - the way she acts, the way she talks, moves, etc.

I can't envision those things garnering decades of love.

Yet I've been attracted to her for a good period of time.

well, I think this may be a psychological thing. Did you admirer her from afar for a long period of time? Often when you have a crush and dont pursue it for a while, you tend to imagine what that person will be like. Eventually, you make that person mean more to you than they rationally should, and you often build them up better than they could ever possibly be. And i think this is that case. I think you need to evaluate what you value. Then rank where she places in those values. Do you value physical beauty? How much? Do you value her company? How much? Do you value rationality? How much? Do you value intelligence? How much? Does her religious preference matter? Things like that need to be re evaluated and you need to decide whether you will ever love her. And whether the relationship is ever going to grow. You may need more time, and to really have a good conversation with her. Tell her what bothers you, and talk about how the relationship could be strengthened by whatever it is that you need. Being open and respecting the person you are with leads to the best relationships.

To answer your first question about my admiration from afar, yes, I did. I believe your assertion may have a great deal of merit.

To your other questions: I find that all of the girls that I have been attracted to have been physically attractive - I am not yet certain whether or not that is coincidence.

I enjoy her company.

The last three, I don't know. That is what confuses me.

I strive to live a rational life, and though I haven't yet fully integrated my principles to a degree with which I'm completely happy, I consider myself well on the path - and I don't understand the concept of loving someone that does not share that virtue.

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Stephen: I believe that I am attracted to her for her good qualities - the problem is that, when describing these qualities, they sound quite pitiful next to the things that I'm not attracted to (irrationality, evasion, subjectivism, arbitrary living, etc.).

Well, if you are relatively new to Objectivism (measured in years, not days!) then you cannot expect to have your new ideas be automatically reflected in your feelings if those ideas are contrary to ones you held, even implicitly, beforehand. It takes time, not only to grasp, but to integrate the philosophy into your whole being. If you have old ideas that conflict with your new ones, you have to root them out by exposing them to conscious re-evaluation. Sometimes this can be quite difficult since some previous ideas and conclusions may not be readily accessible. You might only discover these ideas in light of feelings that you have that conflict with your current consciously held views.

So, do not necessarily feel guilty that you feel things that do not measure up to your relatively new ideas. Your rationality depends on how you deal with the world today, not on automatic feelings you cannot stop yourself from having. What you can do is make fully conscious judgments, and do not act just on what you feel, at least as long as you cannot trust your automatic feelings to be completely in tune with your ideas. It is your actions here that reflect upon your character, not your feelings.

If your judgment actually is that her good qualities are truly "pitiful" next to her overwhelming bad qualities, then act accordingly. You may still feel attracted, but you do not necessarily have to act on those feelings. In the long run your best interests are served being with people who you admire, and time invested in a relationship where that will not occur, is time taken away from the possibility of finding a really good romantic relationship.

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She is by no means "slow" or "dim-witted"; she is, however, an evader. She dodges keystones of reality that are presented to her - she also evades simple statements that have no valid refutation with such statements as "but I feel that it's right" and "that's just your opinion, I'm entitled to my own! (without at all supporting this opinion of hers)".

Tell the woman to read Ayn Rand. (Make a selection based on her interests.) Buy her a copy of The Fountainhead or We the Living if you have to. If she fails to read the book, or reads it but doesn't like it, then you just have to be strong and accept that as proof that she is horribly wrong for you. You will never get along.

At that point, you should immediately destroy or bury any pictures you have of her. Stop calling and dating her. Find a way to never see her again. Be a man!

Cry if you have to.

In a couple weeks you'll be right as rain. Trust me. It just takes time.

Now, if she reads the book and likes it, then you have a prospect. Now you have a better frame of reference for your discussions. At that point, buy her a copy of Atlas Shrugged and make her read it, too. Make her read other Ayn Rand books until you are satisfied or she leaves you.

You sound like a bright person who wants an intellectual relationship with a woman. So, I suggest you demand intellectuality, as a primary, before you go nuts over some hot chick.

Actively look for women who are good thinkers, even if they don't agree with you all the time. And actively ignore those who have their head buried in the sand. Don't waste your time on those who don't even like Ayn Rand.

That's my advice.

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A few questions for you:

1. How do you know her?

2. What are some examples of her evasions?

3. How old are you?

1.) Are you asking how we met? We, at one time, had common interests (Japanese animation) and met at an anime club place thing.

2.) When I make an assertion she, instead of attacking its rational merit, evades the assertion's relation to reality and prefers instead to change the subject, say "that's your opinion" or, and perhaps most offensively, chuckle and tell me that I shouldn't act so much like a scientist and should be more "relaxed".

With that last reason, perhaps I might consider it a valid critique of my attitude, and in such a case, I would not mind - but I know, from discussion with her, that she means exactly what I think her statement implies: reaching conclusions rationally should be left to math, heh.

3.) Thought that would come up, and I imagine that it may alter your perception of my situation and logical capabilities. I'm sixteen - granted, a rational and intelligent sixteen, but the experience is not there.

To Stephen and MisterSwig:

thank you, I will consider your words.

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What is the nature of your interaction with her? Are you dating? "Just friends?"

Can you be more specific as to the kinds of assertions you are making? Are you trying to talk philosophy with her? Could it be that she just isn't interested in discussing what you're bringing up?

What exactly is the problem here? Are you confused as to to whether you should pursue/continue a relationship with her?

How does she feel about *you*?

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What is the nature of your interaction with her? Are you dating? "Just friends?"

Can you be more specific as to the kinds of assertions you are making? Are you trying to talk philosophy with her? Could it be that she just isn't interested in discussing what you're bringing up?

What exactly is the problem here? Are you confused as to to whether you should pursue/continue a relationship with her?

How does she feel about *you*?

We are not currently in a relationship - we are very, very good friends, and I have been open with her about my thoughts, and she knows completely how I feel about her, the good and the bad. She "likes" me, too, but is not ready to date yet because of an experience in her past.

And, my assertions might be considered light philosophy, but definitely nothing intricate or "heavy"; one example of an assertion is "well, that is what they believe, so they must have reasons for that" - she answered "not necessarily" - at this point, I thought she was somewhat close to a practical truth in modern society (that people think without rational thought). Instead, she elaborated, saying that nothing I think is real, and that I should go off of my emotions, because even if I die young because of poor decisions, I would have "lived by [my] heart". When I began to contest by (in layman's terms) mentioning that man needs reason to survive as man, she started to change the topic and though my tone held no malevolence or condescension, accuse me of trying to "force" her to think "my way".

And - the problem here isn't so much my situation with her, though that's on my mind as well.

My main question is, in a situation like this, is it possible to love the person? This situation is more a scenario for you to understand to better answer my question.

I do, of course, also value the input I've received about the specific situation which I'm in.

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well, you may come off a little weird. If you guys arent even dating yet, and you give her lectures, that might be WHY YOU ARENT DATING YET. I hate getting lectured. You might want to try getting to know her better before discussing your most deepest convictions and beliefs.

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We have been friends for ten months, good friends for half a year, and in the past few months we are pretty much as close as I can see us getting without dating.

If this level of intimacy in a friendship doesn't permit the sharing of convictions, I don't know what does.

And, I don't lecture her - it may appear that way because of how I summarize what happened, but I am paraphrasing, and there's much more to what is said. I don't approach her as though she's a small child and lecture her. I've already said that she is not mentally slow and indeed is wittier and "sharper" than most people I know that are her age. I accord her that respect, and don't treat her as anything less.

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okay well then maybe there isnt a solution i can give you. If she is as irrational as you make her sound then it might be hard to have a relationship. If her actions dont bother you, then go for it. If they do bother you, then dont. I cant make it any simpler.

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yea ive done that before too. Tried to make something work that you know won't. But if it will never be a relationship, it doesnt mean that you should end the friendship. She can still become a good friend. It just might not be more than that.

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She "likes" me, too, but is not ready to date yet because of an experience in her past.

I got that line, too, when I was in high school. My favorite though was: "My father won't let me date."

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My main question is, in a situation like this, is it possible to love the person?

If by "love" you mean to experience strong feelings of romantic-sexual attraction, haven't you already answered your own question?

Now, whether or not a happy & successful relationship between you and someone else is possible is another question -- one which is really impossible for a third party to answer. For all I know, this girl could merely be repeating what she heard some knuckleheaded teacher tell her. She might be confused about her conscious values and convictions, but still live quite rationally. (At the same time, you could have a girl who has memorized Galt's Speech, and whose life is a disaster.)

But let's say that this girl does in fact have some real problems. You feel attracted to her. So what?

Men -- particularly young men -- tend to experience romantic attraction as all-or-nothing. A guy sees a woman he's attracted to and he feels an immediate, overpowering desire for her. He wants to have her baby, so to speak.

Women usually do much better in this respect. They tend to be much more aware of the degrees of attraction, and the different varieties of attractions. (Which, incidentally, makes it very uncomfortable for a woman who is out with a guy who she feels she barely knows, yet he's ga-ga over her -- and is acting accordingly.)

I think that part of growing into maturity as a man is becoming more refined in your feelings of attraction; of learning how to enjoy a wide range of attractions to different women and not getting bent out of shape about them.

I doubt that, whatever this girl's problems, she is totally unattractive. OK, so she's damn cute. You're a man, you're going to respond to that.

I've written a "part 2" to this post, but am posting it in the Miscellaneous section so as not to get too far off-topic. See: Response to a Question about Dating & Love

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I know exactly what you're going through. I just recently got out of a relationship with the type of girl you're talking about. I have a question about your girl: Does she believe in God? Mine did and being new to Objectivist thought it was something I thought I could just ignore for a while. That was the major problem in our relationship. Whenever we would get into a disscussion I discovered that most of the beliefs and ideas she held she could not rationally defend, and whenever I would try to get her to think using logic(of which she thinks there are many different kinds...yes...kinds of logic), she would always cite faith and "Well, I just feel it." The relationship you are talking about will ultimately fail or cause you to sacrifice your beliefs. That's how I knew, anyway: the day I said "I guess I could give God a shot" I realized what Rand meant by "sacrifice," and that was the end of that relationship. Now I look back and understand that the only way that relationship could have continued was through a full sacrifice on my part. There was no other way. I still felt attracted toward her and still am in a way. It's the nostalgia of our relationship and thinking I had found love that causes those feelings. It wasn't love though, it was the subconcious programming from my pre-Rand years telling me that everyone is deserving of love and love cant be explained and any attempt to explain it ruins it the whole a thing is not great if one can reach it deal. Lemme know if that helps or you want to hear more of my realizations and discoveries about women (at least those kind, because I still haven't experienced any woman deserving of my true love yet).

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I'm sorry, I forgot to ask you: Do you ever feel anxious around her? and I don't mean the good kind of anxious. Do you ever feel like something is wrong when you're with her? With my girl, I would go about two weeks being around her and the third week would be terrible because the anxiousness became so overwhelming. I would almost blow up at her and we had fights and "break-ups" and it just got bad.

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I have found myself, for a great deal of time, attracted to someone for whom I hold no great degree of intellectual respect.

She is by no means "slow" or "dim-witted"; she is, however, an evader. She dodges keystones of reality that are presented to her - she also evades simple statements that have no valid refutation with such statements as "but I feel that it's right" and "that's just your opinion, I'm entitled to my own! (without at all supporting this opinion of hers)".

There are moments in our conversations where I feel a deep-seeded disrespect toward her intellectual outlook on life, yet, as soon as these conversations end, I feel a ridiculously powerful and irresistible affinity for her. I get the whole "butterflies in the stomach" bit every time that I think of her.

But I cannot rationally envision myself ever "loving" her.

I'm stumped. :)

EDIT: in case it is not clear, I have felt this incredible attraction for more than half a year.

Do you suppose this deep seeded attraction you speak of is more of a physical/lustful attraction, or something else?

I can't fathom how someone could possibly love those you don't respect. Or, well, I should say, be in love with. I could easily love and care for someone that I don't have much respect for, but that's just human nature. But to be in love with someone like that, no way.

That's just me, I guess.

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