Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Pride in ancestors

Rate this topic


softwareNerd

Pride in self and/or ancestors  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. Which one of them deserves to be more proud?

    • Mr. A ("well descended")
      0
    • Mr. B (from a family of crooks and drunks)
      1
    • Neither / not enough info to decide / other
      7


Recommended Posts

Some months ago, I saw a note from a dad, pushing his daughter to go after something she wanted, but was hesitant to attempt. The note started something like this: "We come from a proud Nordic line who take what is rightly ours, and knock down anything in our way..."

 

Got me thinking: what is the relevance of being from this Nordic ancestry, or any ancestry?

 

Imagine there are two people -- Mr. A and Mr. B -- who are pretty similar. Also, imagine that, by your standards, they are not bad guys, nor have they made a lot of poor decisions. Instead, by your standards, they would range somewhere between average and excellent.

 

Mr. A comes from a long-line of hard-working middle-class folk

Mr. B's dad was a con-man, one grandpa was a pick-pocket and the other a drunk who lived off his wife's prostitution

 

Now, both these people are middle-class or higher.

Do either of these people deserve to be proud of their parents/grand-parents? If so, should one be more proud of his ancestry than the other? And, what is the relationship between this pride in ancestry and pride in oneself?

 

I'm adding a poll, but I'm looking forward to seeing people's thoughts, in posts.

Edited by softwareNerd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think "being proud" is overstating it a little, but people should follow the positive example set by their ancestors (the way the guy in that note is urging his daughter to do).

 

The note also suggests a family connection, which was more relevant in the past than it is today. But even that can still be relevant. 

Do either of these people deserve to be proud of their parents/grand-parents? If so, should one be more proud of his ancestry than the other? And, what is the relationship between this pride in ancestry and pride in oneself?

 

Mr. A should maintain a connection with his family and ancestral heritage, and Mr. B should sever any such connection. They should both take pride IN THEIR CHOICE. Mr. B's choice, if successfully accomplished, is of course a bigger deal: so he should take special pride in being able to sever the line and perhaps even start a new one (if he has children).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pride reflects something about the self otherwise it is merely admiration.  I can be proud of a friend because of the connection I have and the possible role I play in who they are and what they achieve, I cannot be proud in how beautiful Saturn looks.

 

Obviously, one can be proud about what one has done, what choices one has made, what one has become, what one possesses, etc. insofar as all of these are in some way caused by the one or reflect what the nature of the one is.

 

Ancestry is a little different because the connection is not the one causing something but the presence of something in the one.  The one shares the same genes, the one has the same "blood", physical, or mental or spiritual traits (to the extent they can be inherited biologically or are a result of lineage or culture of the family).  So pride in ancestry is a pride in that bit of the self that is connected to or directly resulting from those ancestors.  It can also be pride in a potential not yet exhibited but possibly latent.

 

There is also the obvious fact that a person has a literal connection to their ancestors over space and time and causality, which connection is unavoidable.

 

 

I do not know what "deserve" to be proud means.  A person either is or is not proud, and is or is not correct/rational in having that pride or lack thereof.  The concept of "desert" implies a reward... or hints at justice, as though it were intrinsically unfair for a person to erroneously feel pride...I am not certain the concept "deserve" is applicable here.

 

 

Insofar as a person believes he has traits of his ancestors he can be proud of what they have done, but this comes at a price, if he himself has achieved less, he will be shameful of himself for not achieving what he has potential to achieve.  Conversely, a person may feel shame if he believes he has vices inherited from his ancestors, but to the extent he has controlled or vanquished them, he can feel pride in himself.

 

I think this is similar to the following: If a person is born with great  agility and smarts and yet chooses to let his body go and never uses his mind, that person could feel proud of what they were, and possibly what they are or could be but feel shame in what they have not done.  Conversely a person who is was never very agile or smart but who has achieved greatness by pushing their abilities should feel pride. 

 

 

Your ancestors are like a starting point... the root, base, origin of you and your life... feel pride but must be kept in context and perspective : 

 

it is not the end of the story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A person should only take pride (or shame) in their own actions, not those of other people, including ancestors. In my view, knowledge of ancestral background only has one benefit: Appreciation of good things and hard work done by your ancestors that put you in a better starting place in your own life.  Note, that's appreciation, not pride. You cannot take pride from other people's actions. That's stealing pride, and false pride.

 

(Perhaps a second benefit is learning from the mistakes and successes of other people, but that's not confined to your ancestors. You can learn from anybody's mistakes or successes.)

Edited by secondhander
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The book "Ayn Rand Answers" quotes a Q&A from Ford Hall Forum 1977 where Rand is asked about the book "Roots". Her answer is too long to repeat  here but she is positive about the book, calling it "... a myth, in the best sense of the word,". She says that myths, religious stories and histories of heroes give people an idea of the nature of their society... of the meaning and nature of the culture in which they live. 

 

On the other hand, she is critical of the author's purpose in researching his own particular ancestors. I haven't read the book, so perhaps there is some preface by the author that speaks to some specific intent, but -- in general -- I see nothing wrong with wanting to know something about your ancestors: the good and the bad. I know I'm curious about mine. Nothing obsessive, but curious nonetheless. 

 

The dad speaking to his daughter in the OP is invoking a "family myth" of sorts. Done right, this does what literature does: presents some view of the world in concrete terms. Being a family myth makes it more concrete and real. What I mean is something like this: if my grandpa's dad died young, and grandpa had to start working at 14, and ended up getting 10 other siblings through school, and some through college... it serves the role of literature featuring an Horatio Alger style everyday hero. In addition, since this is gramps, whom I knew to be quite a regular guy, it is even more convincing that I can do something similar. So, the literature becomes more convincing.

 

With that said, it would be stupid of me to think I am in any way better than someone else if my grandpa did this, while his was a drunkard etc. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thinking you are "better than someone else" is unrelated to pride.

Well, I meant better in terms of morals and character, not at some specific activity. A safe-cracker is better at cracking safes, but if I evaluate that he doesn't deserve moral pride, while I do, then -- by definition -- I am saying I have better morals and character than he does.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Do either of these people deserve to be proud of their parents/grand-parents?"

Taking it on face value, I would be inclined to say A has more reason to admire his ancestors than person B. Hard work and productive achievement is a virtue, one which has been recognised and taken up by a succession of A's ancestors. If A shares my standard of value, he would respect and admire his ancestors for living in this way. For a fictional example, Dagny admires her father (or was it her grandfather? I can't recall).

Person B's ancestors were criminals or altruists. By my standard of value, I could not admire that.

"And, what is the relationship between this pride in ancestry and pride in oneself?"

Pride in oneself is gained through the successful attainment of your own values; moral excellence. Pride in ancestry is probably better described as admiration; the recognition that your ancestors achieved a lot to be proud of. I believe the purpose of taking pride in ancestors goes further in that it also acts as inspiration, as an indication of potential within yourself, perhaps inherited, from those who demonstrated they had that potential in themselves.

Edited by Jon Southall
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...