The Individual Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 "John Galt is Prometheus who changed his mind. After centuries of being torn by vultures in payment for having brought to men the fire of the gods, he broke his chains—and he withdrew his fire—until the day when men withdraw their vultures." Francisco says this to Dagny in Part Two, Chapter V, after they discover the words “Who is John Galt?” scratched into a table at a restaurant. She says there are so many stories about him, and Francisco tells her that all the stories are true. I do not find this metaphor apt because it wasn't men who set vultures on Prometheus. It was Zeus, god of sky and thunder, who did it to punish Prometheus for stealing fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tito Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 "John Galt is Prometheus who changed his mind. After centuries of being torn by vultures in payment for having brought to men the fire of the gods, he broke his chains—and he withdrew his fire—until the day when men withdraw their vultures." Francisco says this to Dagny in Part Two, Chapter V, after they discover the words “Who is John Galt?” scratched into a table at a restaurant. She says there are so many stories about him, and Francisco tells her that all the stories are true. I do not find this metaphor apt because it wasn't men who set vultures on Prometheus. It was Zeus, god of sky and thunder, who did it to punish Prometheus for stealing fire. Fire is another metaphor for knowledge. The metaphor works in as far as Prometheus was being tortured because he brought new knowledge. Furthermore, much like knowledge, fire can't be stolen. If I light a candle from yours, you don't lose your fire: there is new fire made. Similarly, wealth is made by businessmen, not taken. Myths often take the very abstract and make them very concrete, of course some aspects will be lost, but the metaphor remains useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 I do not find this metaphor apt because it wasn't men who set vultures on Prometheus. It was Zeus, ...It is men who created the myth of Zeus though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Individual Posted September 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 "The metaphor works in as far as Prometheus was being tortured because he brought new knowledge." - Tito Yes, Tito, I see your point. But in the Greek Mythology, Prometheus was tortured by the vultures of Zeus, not Men. "John Galt is Prometheus who changed his mind. After centuries of being torn by vultures in payment for having brought to men the fire of the gods, he broke his chains—and he withdrew his fire—until the day when MEN WITHDRAW THEIR VULTURES." - Francisco The metaphor doesn't completely fit, though the characteristics of Prometheus certainly describes John Galt well, for having suffered because he did something good. A more accurate statement would be: John Galt is Prometheus who changed his mind. After centuries of being torn by vultures in payment for having brought to men the fire of the gods, he broke his chains—and he withdrew his fire—until the day when the gods withdraw their vultures. But that doesn't make much sense does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Ellison Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Ancient religions are dead. Zeus is only a metaphor (or part of the metaphor), in a modern reference to Greek mythology, just like Prometheus. I guess you know that, just making sure. I'm not sure how it fits in, because I have no idea of the details of the story. (maybe she was referencing something I'm unaware of in the story, or maybe Zeus is supposed to be the symbol of men's mysticism, which is what SoftwareNerd is suggesting, I think-that would fit quite nicely, now that I think of it) Metaphors have many interpretations, especially one's that reference a complex story like this. If one interpretation doesn't fit, try the next one, don't stick to the one that doesn't fit. Unless you know for a fact that the author made a mistake, she probably meant the interpretation that fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phibetakappa Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) "John Galt is Prometheus who changed his mind. After centuries of being torn by vultures in payment for having brought to men the fire of the gods, he broke his chains—and he withdrew his fire—until the day when men withdraw their vultures." Francisco says this to Dagny in Part Two, Chapter V, after they discover the words “Who is John Galt?” scratched into a table at a restaurant. She says there are so many stories about him, and Francisco tells her that all the stories are true. I do not find this metaphor apt because it wasn't men who set vultures on Prometheus. It was Zeus, god of sky and thunder, who did it to punish Prometheus for stealing fire. It is not "apt?" It is apt for the story of Atlas Shrugged. What would be apt for you? Edited September 24, 2009 by phibetakappa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phibetakappa Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) It is men who created the myth of Zeus though EXACTLY. Why did they write the myths? Why did the select the circumstances of the myths? Men wrote the myths to describe how things might be an ought to be. Gods are made up constructs for explaining and dispensing advice for how to live one's life. News flash... gods aren't real... In a certain sense, the authors/tellers (men) of the myths continued to "set" the vultures on Prometheus on each retelling. As they could have chosen to retell the story differently, or even could have reversed the plot, but they chose to tell the story for a purpose, possibly providing a kind of moral warning to men who would have the courage to bring a new invention, such as fire, electricity, the light bulb to man kind. Further, there are many, many different castings of the myth. For example, there are major differences between Hesiod's telling and Aeschylus various plays on the subject, the two figures most associated with the earliest popular use of the Myth. Here's one analysis of the two artists vastly different recastings of the myth: "In Hesiod, the story of Prometheus (and, by extension, of Pandora) serves to reinforce the theodicy of Zeus: he is a wise and just ruler of the universe, while Prometheus is to blame for humanity's unenviable existence. In Prometheus Bound, this dynamic is transposed: Prometheus becomes the benefactor of humanity, while every character in the drama (except for Hermes, a virtual stand-in for Zeus) decries the Olympian as a cruel, vicious tyrant." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus Hesiod and Aeschylus are as using the myths to convey certain virtues, warnings and explanation, according to their own philosophy. This is precisely what Ayn Rand has done in remolding the myth again to match the story of Atlas Shrugged. It's amazing to me how ridged and concrete bound peoples minds can be, especially when speaking of a completely man-made, volitionally created work of art. I mean next the guy is going to say, using "Atlas" another mythical figure is not "apt" for the major mythical allusion used in the novel, and ultimately used in the Title. Maybe Ayn Rand should have named it something else? Edited September 24, 2009 by phibetakappa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasmatic Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Or another take is that myths originated from the observation of lost concrete referents. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=74CD162A5D88095C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapereAude Posted September 24, 2009 Report Share Posted September 24, 2009 Actually the more you look at it the more apt it is. If one rereads the Trick at Mecone one finds Prometheus to be the first tax protestor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Individual Posted September 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Maybe I'm just nitpicking. Re-reading it, Prometheus is certainly a good metaphor to describe Galt. My gripe is with the phrase "until the day when men withdraw their vultures". In the Greek Mythology, Prometheus was punished by one of his kind - Zeus - and not the Men who received the fire. The Men were grateful. In Atlas Shrugged, Galt was punished by the Men whom he gave the fire to. The Men were not grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapereAude Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Maybe I'm just nitpicking. Re-reading it, Prometheus is certainly a good metaphor to describe Galt. My gripe is with the phrase "until the day when men withdraw their vultures". In the Greek Mythology, Prometheus was punished by one of his kind - Zeus - and not the Men who received the fire. The Men were grateful. In Atlas Shrugged, Galt was punished by the Men whom he gave the fire to. The Men were not grateful. Actually that is incorrect- they were not of the same kind. Prometheus was a Titan- who proceeded the Gods and ruled before them. The Gods basically stole the world from the Titans. ..much as the looters stole the world from the heroes of AS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Individual Posted September 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 QuoVadis, you made a good point regarding the hierarchical difference of the Titan (Prometheus) and Olympian (Zeus). Hm, I think I might be confused by something. "John Galt is Prometheus who changed his mind. After centuries of being torn by vultures in payment for having brought to men the fire of the gods, he broke his chains—and he withdrew his fire—until the day when men withdraw their vultures." Is the latter sentence referring to Galt or Prometheus? If it's Galt, then I understand it completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D'Ippolito Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 It's most definitely Galt being described. Basically, that sentence describes where the analogy breaks down. Galt and Prometheus both brought good knowledge to the world, Galt, and only Galt, decided not to be punished for it and decided he would withdraw that knowledge (fortunately he decided this before finishing the motor and letting his employer patent it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert J. Kolker Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Maybe Ayn Rand should have named it something else? Ayn Rand's original working title was "The Strike". That has less pazazz than any of Jack London's titles. As to naming it something else, "John Galt Shrugged" simply does not have a ring to it. That would be like the "three horsemen of the apocalypse" It neither gallops nor flies. My suggestion would have been "Prometheus unbound" but I believe that was already taken. Bob Kolker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Individual Posted September 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Okay, thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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