Jump to content

Welcome Guest

Navigation

  • Objectivism Online Wiki

On Social Media:

Welcome to Objectivism Online Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Who Was The Greatest Military Leader Of All Time?

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
149 replies to this topic

Poll: Who was the Greatest Military leader of all time? (255 member(s) have cast votes)

Who was the Greatest Military leader of all time?

  1. Alexander the Great (69 votes [37.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.30%

  2. Julius Caesar (12 votes [6.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.49%

  3. Napoleon Bonaparte (18 votes [9.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.73%

  4. Ghengis Khan (24 votes [12.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.97%

  5. Hannibal (3 votes [1.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.62%

  6. Douglas MacArthur (10 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  7. Erwin Rommel (6 votes [3.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.24%

  8. George Patton (37 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  9. Belisarius (1 votes [0.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.54%

  10. Attila the Hun (5 votes [2.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.70%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#26
Free Capitalist

Free Capitalist

    Advanced Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 683 posts
I said it was ignorance because you so easily dismissed the man whose the generalship capacity has never been surpassed. Julius Caesar cried at the foot of the statue of Alexander, realizing he couldn't compare; Napoleon wrote how much he was inspired by, and learned from, the man. Alexander is even still studied at West Point.

Of course cases can be made that some generals were better, but not one of them is "obviously" superior; none of them is so good as to make Alexander's legacy contemptuous in comparison. So, unless you're some extraordinary and distinguished war historian, whose encyclopedic knowledge was somehow overlooked, I will regard the ease with which you discount a man like Alexander as ignorance. It's only fair.

#27
Sturmgeschutz

Sturmgeschutz

    Junior Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts

Alexander is even still studied at West Point.


Maybe I haven't gotten to this mystic class where we study Alexander the Great's campaigns yet....(It's possible that I will, and just don't know about it I suppose.) but I believe that people that use "his tactics are still taught at West Point" are obviously ignorant of what we are taught and what we produce.

West Point produces junior officers, and so it teaches low level tactics (at least in the mandatory classes that the whole Corps takes). If you want to make a claim about an influential General, look at those who's tactics are taught at the US Army War College. That produces brigade commanders and people who will likely soon make General, and be in command of enough people to be on a similar scale to Alexander.

If you want a good example of "His tactics are still taught at West Point." take a look at Band of Brothers, episode 2 (I believe). In this, CPT Winters takes out an Artillery battery with a small unit of men. At the end of the episode, in the text where it cites the awards, it says that his attack became a textbook maneuver or words to that effect, and "is taught at west point to this day." That is a small unit drill that has immediate application as a junior officer.

I'm just trying to clear up some confusion, not make an attack. I apologize if I gave the wrong impression.

#28
Free Capitalist

Free Capitalist

    Advanced Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 683 posts
I was making a general statement about American generalship training, of which West Point is an example. Nor did I say there's a "class" where all you do is study Alexander's campaigns. Instead, from what I understand, they are integrated into the rest of the curriculum, and provide examples alongside other generals like Belisaurus and Napoleon, for modern military commanders to learn from.

#29
the tortured one

the tortured one

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 336 posts
  • Real Name:Matt

I was making a general statement about American generalship training, of which West Point is an example. Nor did I say there's a "class" where all you do is study Alexander's campaigns. Instead, from what I understand, they are integrated into the rest of the curriculum, and provide examples alongside other generals like Belisaurus and Napoleon, for modern military commanders to learn from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


much in the same manner that a math major would study the works of Euclid without ever actually taking a course on the man, no?

A lot of what Alexander wrote have become stables of military doctrine. The pass in review, for example, was pioneered by Alexander.
Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance but the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, the other of granting it.
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Ma

I made my fortune on the seas, and in the mines, and in the cattle wars of the old frontier... I made it by being tougher than the toughies, and smarter than the smarties. And I made it SQUARE! -Scrooge McDuck

A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides

#30
Free Thinker

Free Thinker

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 366 posts
  • Chat Nick:Free Thinker

I found Hannibal's victories to be the most impressive, but I chose Patton because he has been the most symbolic for me. He was great with maneuver warfare, and even better at being politically-incorrect. The man's got some of the most memorable quotes you'll ever find.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I second that.

#31
Tikkun

Tikkun

    Novice

  • Banned
  • Pip
  • 13 posts
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Muhammad, he led a group of nomads to conquer much of arabia and formed a society that lasts to this day.

#32
Praxus

Praxus

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 392 posts
If you want to talk about a good Muslim general, I think Saladin would be up there.

#33
Al Kufr

Al Kufr

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 283 posts
For your Information here is a nice long list of all the Greatest Military Leaders of all time.

http://sonshi.com/militaryleader.html

#34
Jefferson

Jefferson

    Novice

  • Regulars
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Gender:Male
I go with Patton as well. I agree with everything that has been said about him so far, but also wanted to point out that Patton was key in inventing pretty much everything, including the very concept, of modern tank warfare during WWI, when he was in charge of creating then commanding in battle the US tank corps. I highly recommend the book Patton: A Genius For War by Carlo D'Este.

Regarding Alexander: I'm not an expert but it seems that his virtues did not extend beyond the purely military. He was an brilliant, aggressive, inspiring leader in battle, but in terms of really being in innovator, it was his father who left him that awesome fighting machine that he used, and created his Greek kingdom. Imagine if Philip had lived a little longer - with him as king and Alexander at the head of the armies a truly great and long-term empire could have been created.

#35
elk4586

elk4586

    Novice

  • Regulars
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Real Name:Brady
Up until he did the only thing he his remembered for nowadays, Bennidict Arnold was the best junior general officer in the Continental Army and supposedly one of the greatest tacticians America's ever had.

And while we're in the time frime let's not forget what Washington did with a handful of regulars, militia, and farmer peasents (and some German help) in the Revolution. Granted, without the french at Yorktown we wouldn't have had the surrender....at that time and date anyway.

#36
scottkursk

scottkursk

    Advanced Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 685 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Beaumont, TX
  • Real Name:Scott Kursk

Up until he did the only thing he his remembered for nowadays, Bennidict Arnold was the best junior general officer in the Continental Army and supposedly one of the greatest tacticians America's ever had.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, if Arnold had managed to die at Quebec instead of only being wounded, he'd be a freaking hero we'd hold our children up to as a standard of how to behave in the face of adversity. Now his name is literally mud. Or Mudd as in Dr. Mudd as it were but that's another bad story.

Without Arnold, there is a pretty good chance we wouldn't have been able to solidify our alliance with France and, as much as I hate giving our garlic loving brethren credit, we did need their help during the revolution. Not that he didn't become a died in the wool Tory. It's just that Quebec, I think, really helped show we had a chance against the British and the French had a real reason to invest in us. In fact I think it was the fact that they sent him to Philly to get well is where it started to go wrong. He lost his "fire" and started to get caught up in the politics. He then let the politics go to his head and it all went downhill from there. He quit being a producer and became a looter. Literally.

Amazing how little they teach of just how heroic he really was before the whole turn to the darkside part. Kind of like Star Wars but with real good vs evil. Two hours of screentime to being a kid then 10 hours of evil monster. Which is not to downplay what Arnold did to us. Or at least attempted to do to us.

Edit for clarity.

Edited by scottkursk, 05 July 2005 - 06:02 PM.

Scott Kursk

#37
Spartan JKM

Spartan JKM

    Newbie

  • Regulars
  • 1 posts
GREAT THREAD! I would like to offer a list I put together. I had a lot of fun, my primary aim, in constructing this list, which I constantly revise thanks to the contributions and suggestions of others, whom I thank. This terrific site is my latest stop. I'm glad I found you.

Of course, it is entirely subjective and extremely vulnerable to criticism. I would like to point out that there really is no such indisputable title 'greatest general of all time'. An attempt to 'prove' who was superior among great commanders is pointless and futile, but comparing great commanders and opining whom was 'better' makes for fascinating conjecture. C'mon, you all enjoy the debates, right? I sure do! Let's have fun!

Of extreme importance to mention is that I am merely an amateuer, and my knowledge of military histroy is much more thorough with the West, so I apologize in advance if anyone feels I am erroneous in my rankings, and if certain greats from the East are understated. I have done my best, and many should add to the list etc., as well as suggest changes to TIER 1.

Perhaps a list such as this could be broken up into two major TIERS - before gunpowder, which would comprise all the commanders before the 1420s or so, and after gunpowder. Gunpowder did indeed exist in China in the 9th century, but was used almost exclusively for pyrotechnics. The knowledge and technology of gunpowder was transmitted to Europe via the Middle East. The first known use of gunpowder, which occured in China, was in c. 1167. The Arabs produced the first known working gun in 1304. Gunpowder was used in warfare from the 14th century but it was not generally adapted to civil purposes until the 17th century, when it began to be used in mining. It was the Hussites under the brilliant Jan Zizka and Andrew Procop who showed what gunpowder could do on the battlefield if employed with bold imagination.

Moreover, a vast list could be piecemealed under specifics: strategic, tactical, operational, revolutionary, guerilla and artillery leaders etc. How much credit do monarchs merit in certain campaigns? Edward III and Henry V surely deserve all the credit. Elizabeth I? Maybe. Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin? Absolutely not, in my opinion (this is arguable).

The circumstances of war may never be repeated, but the essence of major tactics and strategy have not changed. It is the methods of their applications, due to the changes in technology, that have altered. Thus we can indeed compare the ancient commanders with the modern ones (IMHO) from this point of view. I will add that ones with autocratic power, such as Alexander, answered to no government, which certainly ameliorated his situation for conquest. What if Hannibal had been the absolute ruler of Carthage? He merely could have ordered supplies and troops to be sent to him in southern Italy after his devastating victory at Cannae. The pressure might have been too much for the Senate.

What if Hitler had listened to Erich von Manstein and not become so obsessed with solely capturing Stalingrad, which surpassed all rationality, and concentrated a bulk of his forces towards capturing the oilfields in the Caucasus, thus porobably grinding the Soviets to a halt? It all makes for great hypothesis - which is all it can be.

So, what makes a great general? Many things, of course, and no man is infallible. Adaptation. Improvisation. Panache. Magnanimity in winning over allies. Non-hesitation. Decisiveness. Exerting discipline and iron will into his troops. A political understanding. Luck. All great ideas are simple (at least to a genius). Perhaps the biggest, if one is most paramount, attribute to a great commander is his ability to identify a 'simple' solution to victory before his opponent in battle. Logistically, exploiting the terrain and weather is invaluable. The greats had them all. B.H. Liddell Hart, the renowned theorist (among many things he was), says the most important quality is to strike at an opponents' Achilles Heel. But one must find that weak point. A good soldier will conceal his weak point the best he can.

With all things considered, such as the innovations of Epaminondas and Gustavus, Hannibal's and Narses' tactical genius, the scope of the conquest of Chinggis Khan, I consider Alexander to be the towering figure of military history. For what it merits, no other has successfully 'linked' the East and West, thus he was an immense cultural reformer, which is what he wanted to do. He indeed commanded an army much superior than what he faced, but he was outnumbered considerably and his battle dispositions were perfect (Gaugamela). The military machine left to him from Philip II was the world's first standing army and raised by the world's first universal military service. But Philip II's son took his machine and succeeded, perhaps, beyond the Macedonina king's wildest dreams. There has perhaps been no greater practitioner of a great system than Alexander. Hannibal, Scipio Africanus, Chinggis Khan, Subotai, and Napoleon were certainly comparable.

Heinz Guderian was probably the greatest exponent of 'Blitzkrieg' at the start of WWII, which proved incrediblty efficacious, at least initially.

Napoleon was as able as any other in history, but his colossal ambition was beyond his, or any man's, reach. His hands were trying to reach the moon. He was extant in a time when no Alexander could thrive. Man cannot be God. Like Cannae, Austerlitz was a lesson in the art of war.

Chinggis Khan, who was born in a tent and began with less than nothing, may have impacted the world as much as any other, and the truth is he was a visionary leader whose conquests joined backward Europe with the flourishing cultures of Asia to trigger a global awakening, an unprecedented explosion of technologies, trade, and ideas, all filtered via the Silk Rode. His great general Subotai was probably history's greatest grand strategist, as he effectively used one army to screen another's flank, thus co-ordinating multiple armies across multiple mountain ranges. Brilliant.

Though Alexander's empire did not endure as Rome's did or was as vast as that of the Mongols, his legacy probably outlasts any other military figure, other than perhaps the Prophet Mohammed (and maybe Constantine I}, and his work was one of near cosmogony. He was a genius. He was a madman. He was a visionary. He was a mass-murderer. He was a liberator. He was intoxicated with power. He was chivalrous when not opposed. Was he all of these? Was he any of these? Militarily, he could smash his enemy. Diplomatically, he could win over the peoples of his enemies. Scipio Africanus, porobably Rome's greatest field commander, also succeeded with these great attributes.
No one leader has personally marched so far so fast, in which he led an army replete with cavalry and infantry, some 15,000 miles in 14 years as Alexander did. He excelled in every branch of war, exemplified by the siege of Tyre and his guerilla style campaign in the knigdoms of Bactria and Sogdiana.

This may be a stretch, but neither the Roman empire, the triumphant route of Christianity, the Byzantine empire nor Arabian civilization would have germinated and fostered as significantly as they did without the works of Alexander. It is probable he couldn't have known at the time what he would influence, but the fact we speak of him today the manner in which we do, he got exactly what he wanted.

If anyone has the right to be judged by the standards of his time, and not by the standards of our time, it is Alexander".

-Hermann Bengston

As a field general who sustained his army in enemy territory so adeptly, with that enemy assidiously dogging him, with only grudging support from his own state, who could have sent him troops in 215 B.C. through the Straits of Messena (Messina), Hannibal has no equal. His campaign was the first in which strategic endurance played the pivotal role. Rome adapted brilliantly, and won with his concept, basically of breaking an enemy by detaching her allies. He also provided the posterity of warfare with a textbook display of tactical perfection in a pitched battle at Cannae in 216 B.C. He did ultimately fail, though.

In the 220s B.C. Shih Huang-ti created the first unified Chinese empire - the Ch'in Dynasty, hence 'China'. He developed an astounding military force (he never personally led his armies in battle), replete with a shock cavalry force, and consolidated China. His domain collapsed just 4 years after his death, but he did usher in the great Han Dynasty. He established a centralized administration and constructed a network of roads and canals. He fought against the steppe peoples from the northern desert, and he began that immense work, the Great Wall of China, to set limits to their incursions.

Warlords of the steppes of the Asian interior, such as Mete Han (late 3rd century to early 2nd century B.C.) and Ran Min (mid 4th century A.D.) carried out devastating campaigns of destruction with their indefatigable armies of horsemen.
Cao Cao, a warlord who had been an important member of the previous Han Dynasty, had first established his power in northern China by defeating his rival, Yuan Shao, in the Battle of Guandu in 200 A.D. This made Cao Cao the most powerful ruler in northern China. Records seeem a little exiguous, but, in this battle, Cao Cao was outnumbered significantly.
Wanyan Min, or Wanyan Aguda, founder of the Jin Dynasty and one of military history's greatest mounted warriors, defeated 700,000 Liao (Qidan) troops with 20,000 (this is not a typo) of his superbly armored and skilled Jurchen cavalrymen at the Battle of Hubudagang in 1115. The Liao Dynasty by this time was very decadent, but those odds are ridiculous! The following year, Aguda completed the conquest of the entire Liaodong Peninsula (northeastern China). Between 1119 and 1122, Aguda's army repeatedly defeated Liao armies and captured all of Liao's five capitals. The Mongols destroyed the Jin in 1234. By this time, however, the Jin was seriously weakened by internal strife.

Xenophon was the originator, probably, of the rearguard action, exemplified in his legendary, disciplined retreat of the Ten Thousand in 401 B.C.

As a soldier/politician/writer etc., Julius Caesar was untouchable. He was both a man of the people and a despot.

I have categorized my compilation into three TIERS.

TIER 1 - The very best. I have added in parantheses each commander's great military victory. This gets difficult; I am steadfast about the top 4, but how can one discern that Marlborough was indisputably better than Gustavus Adolphus?. It comes down to our own subjective preferences. Remeber, too, history is written by the winners.
The quality of one's work is a little more important than the breadth (who am I to judge the 'quality', right?). This doesn't necessarily mean final victory for one's cause. For example, Epaminondas and Philip II of Macedon won just 3 major victories between them, smashing ones, which displayed tactical innovation. But it seems to me they were military geniuses above others who may have conquered more people and terrotory, such as Tamerlane and Hernan Cortes. Moreover, one can be superior to another without necessarily being the more innovative.

TIER 2 - The next level. These commanders could very well have possessed genius on par with the TIER 1 leaders, but something, from my view, precludes them from being ranked with the others. For example, Tamerlane, an amazing leader, was no fool, but basically a bandit on a massive scale with no political foresight. He simply conquered, not settled. Maybe indiscriminate conquest is all it takes to be considered a great military leader. I guess one might argue with "who cares?"; the scope of Tamerlane's conquests rival that of Chinggis Khan. Superfluous to say, this is all debatable. I may have shown a little too much impressionability for the Christian Crusaders, who have been the subject of much romanticism. Let me know what you think. The debates should not be contentious, but academic.

TIER 3 - These commanders, in some form or another, warrant attention more positively than negatively. I may have underrated some, such as Attila and Nathan Forrest, and the likes of Crassus and McClellan were moderate commanders at best. I include bandits, revolutionists and operational commanders. I realize TIER 3 may be too broad, and many more could easily be included 9any commander who won a battle of some sort!). Perhaps there should be a 4th? A 5th?

I do not include the likes of Elizabeth I, Queen of England or Adolf Hitler, as they cannot be given credit for the military successes, in battle, of their nation's armies. That credit goes to their subordinates. They do merit credit (or accountability) for their influence upon human history.

I hope I haven't expounded too much. By all means, I would love approvals, reprovals and suggestions etc., etc. Remeber, this is all my opinion, and I am just an avocational amateur. By all means, I would love approvals, reprovals and suggestions etc., etc.

TIER 1
This is my 'top 10' list (16, actually).

Alexander III Alexandros III Philippou Makedonon 'the Great' (Gaugamela 331 B.C.)

Hannibal Hannibal Barca (Cannae 216 B.C.)

Napoleon I Napoleone Buonaparte, Emperor of France (Austerlitz 1805 A.D.)

Chinggis (Genghis) Khan Temujin 'Universal Ruler' (Indus River 1221 A.D.)

Publius Cornelius Scipio Scipio Africanus Major (Ilipa 206 B.C.)

John Churchill Duke of Marlborough (Blenheim 1704 A.D.)

Gustavus II (Gustavus Adolphus, Gustaf Adolph) King of Sweden (Breitenfeld 1631 A.D.)

Belisarius Flavius Belisario (Constantinople 559 A.D.)

Arthur Wellesley Duke of Wellington (Salamanca 1812 A.D.)

Subotai Subedei Ba'adur (Kalka River 1223 A.D.)

Gaius Julius Caesar (Pharsalus 48 B.C.)

Frederick II King of Prussia 'the Great' (Leuthen 1757 A.D.)

Epaminondas (Leuctra 371 B.C.)

Philip II King of Macedon (Chaeronea 338 B.C.)

Khalid ibn al-Walid the Sword of Allah (Yarmuk River 636 A.D.)

Horatio Nelson Viscount Nelson (Trafalgar 1805 A.D.) - Probably the greatest ever at sea


TIER 2
These commanders are the next level. I do not rank these; they are listed chronologically.


Tuthmosis III Thutmose III, Pharaoh of Egypt

Cyrus Achaemenid King of Persia 'the Great'

Shi Huang-ti Chao Cheng, Emperor of the Qin (unified China in 221 B.C.)

Seleucus I Diadochi and Seleucid Founder 'Nicator'

Gaius Marius

Trajan (Marcus Ulpius Trajanus) Roman Emperor 'Optimus Princeps'

Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus) Roman Emperor 'Restitutor Orbis'

Constantine I (Flavius Valerius Constantinus) Roman Emperor 'the Great'

Narses Narseus

Heraclius

Charles Martel (Carolus Martellus) Frankish Ruler 'the Hammer'

Charlemagne (Carolus Magnus) Charles I, King of the Franks 'the Great'

Alfred King of Wessex 'the Great'

Godfrey (Godefroy) Duke de Bouillon

Wanyan Aguda (Shizu) Jin Founder 'Taizu'

Saladin (Salah al-Din Yusuf bin Ayyub) Kurdish Muslim Leader

Richard I King of England 'Coeur de Lion'

Edward III King of England

Timur Timur Lenk, hence Tamerlane

Henry V King of England

Jan Zizka

Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba El Gran Capitan

Selim I Ottoman Sultan 'the Grim

Babur (Zahiruddin Muhammed Babur) Moghul Founder 'the Tiger'

Suleiman (Suleymaniye) I Ottoman Sultan 'the Magnificent'

Oda Nobunaga

Maurice of Nassau, Prince of Orange

Oliver Cromwell Lord Protector of the Commonwealth

Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne Vicomte Turenne

Louis II de Bourbon Duc d'Enghien and Prince de Conde 'the Great Conde'

Charles XII King of Sweden

Eugene Prinz Francois-Eugen of Savoy-Carignan

Nadir Shah (Nadir Qoli Beg) Shah of Persia

Maurice de Saxe Hermann Moritz

George Washington

Aleksandr Vasilevich Suvorov Generalissimus

Louis Nicolas Davout Duc d'Auerstadt and Prince d'Eckmuhl 'the Iron Marshal'

Charles Karl Ludwig, Archduke of Austria

Johann Josef Wenzel Radetzky Graf Radetzky von Radetz

Thomas Jonathan Jackson Stonewall Jackson

Robert E(dward) Lee

Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke Count

Mustafa Kemal Kemal Ataturk 'Gazi'

Erwin (Johannes Eugen) Rommel the Desert Fox

George Smith Patton Old Blood and Guts

Carl Gustav Emil Mannerheim Baron

Heinz Wilhelm Guderian

Erich von Manstein Fritz-Erich von Lewinski

William (Joseph) Slim 1st Viscount of Yarralumla and Bishopston

Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov

Vo Nguyen Giap

TIER 3

BEFORE CHRIST

Sargon King of Akkad 'the Great', Suppiluliumas Hittite King, Rameses II Pharaoh of Egypt, Gideon Jerub-baal, Wu Wang Chi Fa 'the Martial King', Tiglath Pileser I King of Assyria, Chou Kung Chi Tan, Ashurnasirpal II King of Assyria, Shalmaneser III King of Assyria, Tiglath-Pileser III King of Assyria, Sargon II King of Assyria, Sennacherib King of Assyria, Esarhaddon King of Assyria, Ashurbanipal King of Assyria, Ji Zhonger Duke Wen of Jin, Nabopolasser King of Babylonia, Cyaxeres King of Media, Nebuchadnezzar II King of Babylonia, Sun Tzu (Wu) Honorable Sun, Darius I King of Persia 'the Great', Artaphrenes the Elder, Miltiades, Leonidas I King of Sparta, Gelon Tyrant of Syracuse, Pausanius, Leotychides, Themistocles, Cimon, Leosthenes, Cincinnatus Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Gaius Servilius Ahala, Sitalkes Odrysian King 'the Great', Pagondas, Brasidas, Hannibal Hannibal Mago, Gylippus, Alcibiades, Himilco, Lysander, Agesilaus King of Sparta, Iphicrates, Conon, Marcus Furius Camillus, Pelopidas, Dionysius Tyrant of Syracuse, Artaxerxes II King of Persia 'Mnemon', Xenophon, Marcus Valerius Corvus, Titus Manlius Torquatus Imperiosus, Timoleon, Memnon of Rhodes, Parmenio the Old General, Craterus, Antipitar, Antigonus I Cyclops, Chandragupta Maurya Mauryan Founder 'Sandracottus', Quintus Fabius Maximus Rullianus, Agathocles Tyrant of Syracuse, Ptolemy I Soter, Demetrius I Demetrius Poliorcetes, Lysimachus, Publius Cornelius Dolabella, Pyrrhus King of Epirus, Spurius Carvilius Maximus, Appius Claudius Caudex, Manius Curius Dentatus, Xanthippus, Marcus Atilius Regulus, Asoka, Adherbal, Gaius Lutatius Catalus, Hamilcar Barca Lightning, Gaius Duilius, Ming T'ien, Chou T'o, Lucius Aemilius Papus, Gaius Atilius Regulus, Lucius Caecilius Metellus, Publius Cornelius Scipio the Elder, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Calvus, Gaius Flaminius, Marcus Claudius Marcellus, Hasdrubal Barca, Gaius Claudius Nero, Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cunctator, Mago Magon Barca, Titus Manlius Torquatus, Marcus Valerius Laevinus, Marcus Livius Salinator, Attalus I King of Pergamum 'Soter', Hsiang Yu Xiang Yu, Liu Bang Kao-tse 'Gaozu', Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiagenes, Manius Acilius Glabrio, Antiochus III King of Syria 'the Great', Prusias I King of Bithynia 'Cholos', Philopoemen the Last of the Greeks, Marcus Fulvius Nobilior, Mete Han Shanyu of the Xiongnu 'Maodun', Titus Quinctius Flamininus, Philip V King of Macedon, Antiochus IV King of Syria 'Epiphanes', Judas Maccabaeus the Hammer, Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus, Eumenes II King of Pergamum 'Soter', Masinissa King of the Massylii, Viriathus, Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus Africanus Minor, Wei Qing, Ho Qu-bing, Quintus Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus, Liu Che (Wu Di) Han Emperor, Sulla Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Quintus Sertorius, Spartacus, Mithridates IV King of Pontus 'the Great', Ariovistus Friend, Lucius Licinius Lucullus Ponticus, Marcus Licinius Crassus Dives, Surena Eran Suren-Pahlev, Vercingetorix, Pompey Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus 'the Great', Juba I King of Numidia, Pharnaces II King of Pontus, Publius Ventidius, Titus Statilius Taurus, and Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa.

ANNO DOMINI

Augustus Caesar Gaius Octavius, Germanicus Caesar Nero Claudius Germanicus, Cunobelinus King of the Catuvellauni, Arminius (Hermann der Cherusker) Chief of the Cherusci, Caratacus (Caradoc) King of the Catuvellauni, Publius Ostorius Scapula, Liu Xiu (Han-Guang Wu Di) Han Emperor, Aulus Plautius, Boudicca (Boadicea) Queen of the Iceni, Gaius Paulinus Suetonius, Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo, Eleazar bin Yair, Flavius Josephus Joseph ben Matthias, Bar Kochba Simon bar Kochba, Marcus Aurelius, Yuan Shao Benchu, Severus Lucius Septimius Severus, Cao Cao Wei Wang 'Mengde', Zhang Liao, Chu-ko Liang Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei, Maximinus Gaius Julius Verus Maximinus 'Thrax', Ardashir I Sassanid Founder of Persia, Lu Yi Li Xun, Sun Quan, Gallienus Publius Licinius Egnatius Gallienus, Publius Septimius Odaenathus, Claudius II Marcus Aurelius Claudius 'Gothicus', Shapur I Sassanid King of Persia, Shi Le Great Chieftain, Constantius II Illyricum 'Junior Emperor', Ran Min, Shapur II Sassanid King of Persia, Fritigern King of the Visigoths, Theodosius I Flavius Theodosius 'the Great', Flavius Stilicho, Alaric I King of the Visigoths, Rua the Hun, Breda the Hun, Attila the Hun 'the Scourge of God', Flavius Aetius, Geiseric King of the Vandals, Odoacar (Odavacer) King of the Heruli, Clovis I King of the Franks, Theodoric King of the Ostrogoths 'the Great', Arthur King Arthur (legendary), Priscus, Totila (Baduila) King of the Ostrogoths, AEthilfrith King of Northumbria, Raedwald King of East Anglia, Muhammed the Prophet of Islam, Umar ibn al-Khattab Caliph of Islam, Amr-ibn-al-As, Rustam Farokhzad, Sa'ad ibn abu-Wakkas, Tariq ibn Zayid, Mohammed ibn-Kasim, T'ai tsung Lin Shih-min, Pepin II Pepin of Heristal, Pelayo Nobleman of Asturias, Eudes (Odo) Duke of Aquitaine, Leo III Byzantine Emperor 'the Isaurian', An Lu-shan, Hsuan-tsung, Harun al-Rashid, Egbert King of Wessex, AEthelwulf King of Wessex, Basil I Byzantine Emperor 'the Macedonian', Arpad Chief of the Magyars, Edward King of Wessex 'the Elder', Simeon I Tsar of Bulgaria, Harold I (Harald Haarfager) King of Norway, Henry I German King 'the Fowler', John Kurkuas, Nicephorus II Byzantine Emperor 'Phocas', Otto I Holy Roman Emperor 'the Great', John I (John Tzimisces) Byzantine Emperor, Muhammed Almansour Abi emir 'the Victorious', Boleslav I (Boleslav Chobri) King of Poland 'the Brave', Rajaraja Chola Emperor of Tamil Nadu, Brian Boru, Basil II Byzantine Emperor 'Bulgaroktonos', Mahmud Sultan of Ghazni, Canute (Knut) II Danish King of Denmark, England, and Norway, Fulk III (Fulk Nerra) Count of Anjou 'the Black', Rajendra Chola Emperor of Tamil Nadu, Harold II (Harold Godwinsson) Earl of Wessex, Tughril Beg Seljuk Turk Founder, Alp Arslan (Muhammed ben Da'ud) Seljuk Sultan of Persia 'the Valiant Lion', Robert Guiscard the Resourceful, William I Duke of Normandy and King of England 'the Conqueror', El Cid or El Campeador Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, Bohemond (Marc Guiscard), Baldwin (of Boulogne) I Latin King of Jerusalem, Alexius I Byzantine Emperor 'Comnenus', Sigurd I (Sigurd Magnusson) King of Norway 'the Crusader', Baldwin (of Le Bourg) II Latin King of Jerusalem, Alfonso I King of Aragon and Navarre, Boleslav III King of Poland 'Wrymouth', Waldemar I King of Denmark 'the Great', Richard de Clare 2nd Earl of Pembroke 'Strongbow', Baldwin IV Latin King of Jerusalem, Alfonso I King of Portugal 'Henriques the Conqueror', Minamoto Yoshitsune, Frederick I (Frederick Hohenstauffen) Holy Roman Emperor 'Barbarossa', Kilij Arslan II (Izz ad-Din Kilij Arslan) Seljuk Sultan of Rum, Enrico Dandolo Doge of Venice, Muhammed of Ghor Muizz al Din Muhammed, Kaloyen Asen Johannizza 'the Roman Killer', Alfonso VIII King of Castile 'the Noble', Simon de Montfort IV Lord of Montfort, Chepe (Jebe Noyan), Philip II (Phillippe Auguste) King of France, Alfonso II King of Portugal 'the Fat', Muqali, Jalal ad-Din Mingburnu Khwarezm Sultan, Hermann von Salza, Chormaqan Noyan, Waldemar II King of Denmark, Frederick II Holy Roman Emperor, Batu Batu Khan, Hulagu Hulagu Khan, Kaidu Kaidu Khan, Kadan, Alexander Nevsky (Alexander Vsevolodovich) Prince of Novgorad, Simon de Montfort Earl of Leicester, Baybars I Mamluk Sultan, Liu Cheng, Rudolf I German King 'Rudolf of Hapsburg', Kublai Khan, Jan I Duke of Brabant 'the Victorious', Pedro III King of Aragon, William Wallace, Edward I King of England 'Longshanks', Hojo Tokimune, Robert I King of Scotland 'the Bruce', Alfonso XI King of Castile and Leon, Stefan Dusan, Orkhan Ottoman Sultan, Edward de Bailol, Edward Prince of Wales 'the Black Prince', Bertrand Du Guesclin, Louis I King of Hungary and Poland 'the Great', Pedro IV King of Aragon, Murad I Ottoman Sultan, John Hawkwood, Beyazid I (Yildirim) Ottoman Sultan 'Thunderbolt', Owen Glendower (Owain Glyn Dwr), Jeanne d'Arc (Joan of Arc), Nun'Alvares Pereira the Great Constable, Ladislaus II (Ladislaus Jagiello) King of Poland, Andrew Procop Procopius the Great, Janos Hunyadi, Alfonso V King of Aragon and Alfonso I King of Naples 'the Magnanimous', Gjergj Kastrioti Prince of Albania 'Skanderbeg', Muhammed II Ottoman Sultan 'the Conqueror', Isabella I Queen of Aragon, Castile and Leon 'the Catholic', Henry VII (Henry Tudor) King of England, Francisco de Almeida, Gaston de Foix Duc de Nemours, Ferdinand V King of Castile and Leon and Ferdinand II King of Aragon and Ferdinand III King of Naples 'the Catholic', Ismail Shah of Persia, Georg von Frundsberg, Francisco Pizarro, Pedro de Alvarado, Khair ad-Din Barbarossa, Hernan Cortes (Hernando Cortez, Jan Tarnowski, Charles V Holy Roman Emperor, Takeda Shingen Kai-Shugo, Don Juan de Austria, Fernando Alvarez de Toledo Duque de Alba (Alva), Ivan IV Tsar of Russia 'the Terrible', William I Prince of Orange 'the Silent', Stephen Bathory, Alessandro Farnese Duke of Parma, Yi Sun-shin, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Akbar Mughal Emperor 'the Great', Stephen Bocskay, Henri IV King of France, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Jan Chodkiewicz, Charles Howard 1st Earl of Nottingham, Nurhaci, Peter Ernst Graf von Mansfeld, Abbas I Shah of Persia 'the Great', Ambrogio Spinola Marques de Balbases, Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim, Johann Tserclaes Graf von Tilly, Albrecht von Wallenstein Duke of Friedland and Mecklenburg, Johan Baner, Bernhard Duke of Saxe-Weimar, Duo'ergun Dorgon, Franz Freiherr Baron von Mercy, Hargobind Guru, Stanislaw Koniecpolski, James Graham Marquess of Montrose, Lennart Torstensson, Robert Blake, Ottavio Piccolomini, Bohdan Chmielnicki, Tuhaj- Bej, Jinga Queen of Ndonga and Matamba, Thomas Fairfax 3rd Baron of Cameron, Michiel de Ruyter, John Maurice Prince of Nassau-Siegen, William Cavendish Marquis of Newcastle, Raimondo Montecuccoli, Shivaji Bhonsle Shri Shivaji Maharaj, Rupert Prince of the Rhine, David Leslie, Henry Morgan Morgan the Pirate, Abraham Duquesne Marquis Duquesne, Francois Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville Duc de Luxembourg, John III (Jan Sobieski) King of Poland, Niels Juel, Menno van Coehoorn Baron, William III King of England 'William of Orange', Sebastien le Prestre de Vauban, Louis William Margrave of Baden-Baden, Aurangzeb (Alamgir) Mughal Emperor, Louis Joseph Duc de Vendome, Kangxi Hsiian-yeh, Peder Tordenskjold Thundershield, Peter I (Pyotr Alekseyevich Romanov) Tsar of Russia 'the Great', James FitzJames Duke of Berwick, Claude-Louis Hector Duc de Villars, Robert MacGregor Rob Roy, James Wolfe, Louis-Joseph de Montcalm Marquis de Saint Veran, William Augustus Duke of Cumberland, Leopold Joseph Maria Count von Daun, [b]Robert Clive[/b] 1st Baron of Plassey, [b]Emelian Pugachev[/b], [b]Casimir Pulaski[/b], [b]Charles (Karl Alexander)[/b] Prince of Lorraine, [b]Haidar Ali[/b], [b]Jassa Singh Ahluwalia[/b] Sardar, [b]Nathanael Greene[/b], [b]Ethan Allen[/b], [b]Francois-Joseph Paul[/b] Comte de Grasse, [b]Jacques Hippolyte[/b] Comte de Guibert, [b]Grigoriy Potemkin[/b], [b]Tippu Sultan[/b] the Tiger of Mysore, [b]Ferdinand[/b] Duke of Brunswick, [b]John Burgoyne[/b] Gentleman Johnny, [b]John Paul Jones[/b], [b]Richard Howe[/b] 1st Earl Howe, [b]Benedict Arnold[/b], [b]Ralph Abercrombie[/b], [b]Daniel Morgan[/b], [b]Francois Toussant-L'Ouverture[/b], [b]Charles Cornwallis[/b] Lord, [b]Horatio Gates[/b], [b]Jean Dessalines[/b], [b]Aleksei Orlov[/b], [b]Gerard Lake[/b] 1st Viscount, [b]Jean Lannes[/b] Duc de Montebello, [b]John Moore[/b], [b]Isaac Brock[/b], [b]Pyotr Bagration[/b], [b]Gerhardt von Scharnhorst[/b] Graf, [b]Tecumseh[/b], [b]Mikhail Kutuzov[/b], [b]Josef Poniatowski[/b], [b]Hugh Robert Rollo[/b] Rollo Gillespie, [b]William Howe[/b] 5th Viscount Howe, [b]Joachim Murat[/b] King of Naples, [b]Louis Berthier[/b] Prince of Wagram and Neufchatel, [b]Michel Ney[/b] Duc d'Elchingen and Prince de la Moscowa 'le Brave des Braves', [b]Pierre Augereau[/b] Duc de Castiglione, [b]Karadjordje[/b] Djordje Petrovich, [b]Andre Massena[/b] Duc de Rivoli, [b]Thaddeus Kosciuszko[/b], [b]Mikhail Barclay de Tolly[/b], [b]Gerbhard von Blucher[/b] Prince of Wahlstadt, [b]Oliver Perry[/b], [b]Manuel Belgrano[/b], [b]Charles Dumouriez[/b], [b]Lazare Carnot[/b] the Organizer of Victory, [b]Francis Rawdon[/b] 1st Marquess of Hastings, [b]Shaka[/b] Shaka Zulu, [b]Simon Bolivar[/b], [b]Antonio Jose de Sucre[/b], [b]Thomas Sydney Beckwith[/b], [b]Marie-Joseph du Mortier[/b] Marquis de Lafayette, [b]Tomas Zumalacarregui[/b], [b]Andrew Jackson[/b], [b]Hari Singh Nalwa[/b] Sardar, [b]Ranjit Singh[/b] Maharajah of India, [b]William Harrison[/b], [b]Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte[/b] Prince of Ponte Corvo (later became [b]Charles XIV[/b] King of Sweden), [b]Robert Stopford[/b], [b]Muhammed Ali[/b] Pasha of Egypt, [b]Jose de San Martin[/b], [b]Juan Martin de Pueyrredon[/b], [b]Thomas Bugeaud[/b], [b]Zachary Taylor[/b], [b]Nicolas Soult[/b] Duc de Dalmatie, [b]Francisco Castanos[/b], [b]Jose Ballivian[/b], [b]Auguste Marmont[/b] Duc de Ragusa, [b]Charles Napier[/b], [b]William Beresford[/b] Viscount Beresford, [b]Fitzroy Somerset[/b] 1st Baron Raglan, [b]Pavel Nakhimov[/b], [b]Thomas Cochrane[/b] 10th Earl of Dundonald, [b]Harry Smith[/b] Sir Harry, [b]Ignacio Zaragoza[/b], [b]Frederick Ward[/b], [b]Colin Campbell[/b] 1st Baron Clyde, [b]Samuel Houston[/b], [b]John Buford[/b], [b]John Morgan[/b], [b]James Stuart[/b] Jeb Stuart, [b]Ambrose Hill[/b], [b]Winfield Scott[/b], [b]Francesco Serrano[/b], [b]Antoine-Henri de Jomini[/b] Baron, [b]Justo Jose de Urquiza[/b], [b]David Farragut[/b], [b]George Thomas[/b], [b]Shamyl[/b] Imam Shamyl of Dagestan, [b]George Meade[/b], [b]Henry Halleck[/b] Old Brains, [b]Cochise[/b] Chiricahua, [b]Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna[/b], [b]Gordon Granger[/b], [b]George Custer[/b], [b]Braxton Bragg[/b], [b]Nathan Forrest[/b], [b]Crazy Horse [/b] Tashunca-uitco, [b]Saigo Takamori[/b] the Last Samurai, [b]Albrecht Theodor Emil[/b] Graf von Roon Graf, [b]Giuseppe Garibaldi[/b], [b]Mikhail Skobelev[/b], [b]Abd al-Qadir[/b] Emir of Algeria, [b]Cetchewayo[/b], [b]Charles Gordon[/b] Chinese Gordon, [b]Muhammad Ahmad[/b] the Mahdi, [b]George McClellan[/b], [b]Ulysses S(impson) Grant[/b], [b]Philip Sheridan[/b], [b]Sitting Bull[/b] Tatanka-ioytanka, [b]William Sherman[/b] Uncle Billy, [b]Francois Canrobert[/b], [b]John Chard[/b], [b]William Rosencrans[/b], [b]Piet Joubert[/b], [b]James Longstreet[/b], [b]Chief Joseph[/b] In-mut-too-yah-lat-lat, [b]Bartolome Mitre[/b], [b]Gevork Chavoush[/b], [b]Maximo Gomez[/b], [b]Geronimo[/b] Goyathlay, [b]Red Cloud[/b] Makhpiya-luta, [b]Marasuke Nogi[/b], [b]Menilek II[/b] Emperor of Ethiopia, [b]Garnet Wolseley[/b] Viscount Wolseley, [b]Alfred[/b] Graf von Schlieffen, [b]Frederick Roberts[/b] 1st Earl of Kandahar, Pretoria and Waterford, [b]Joshua Chamberlain[/b], [b]Iwao Oyama[/b], [b]Horatio Kitchener[/b] Earl of Khartoum and Broome, [b]George Dewey[/b], [b]Frederick Maude[/b], [b]Emiliano Zapata[/b], [b]Theodore Roosevelt[/b] Teddy Roosevelt, [b]John Fisher[/b] 1st Baron of Kilverstone, [b]Herbert Plumer[/b] 1st Viscount, [b]Michael Collins[/b], [b]Henry Wilson[/b], [b]Francisco Villa[/b] Pancho Villa, [b]Vladimir Lenin[/b] ne Ulyanov, [b]Mikhail Frunze[/b], [b]John French[/b] 1st Earl of Ypres, [b]Aleksey Brusilov[/b], [b]Ferdinand[/b] King of Rumania, [b]Max Hoffmann[/b], [b]Andranik Ozanian[/b] Pasha, [b]Douglas Haig[/b] 1st Earl Haig, [b]Alvaro Obregon[/b], [b]Georges Clemenceau[/b], [b]Ferdinand Foch[/b], [b]John Monash[/b], [b]Omar Al-Mukhtar[/b], [b]Alexander Cobbe[/b], [b]Joseph Joffre[/b], [b]Arthur Currie[/b], [b]Albert I[/b] King of the Belgians, [b]Louis Lyautey[/b], [b]Heihachiro Togo[/b], [b]Paul von Hindenburg[/b], [b]Thomas Edward Lawrence[/b] Lawrence of Arabia, [b]Josef Pilsudski[/b], [b]Juan Vicente Gomez[/b], [b]Edmund Allenby [/b] 1st Viscount of Megiddo and Felixstowe, [b]Hans von Seeckt[/b], [b]Erich von Ludendorff[/b], [b]Leon Trotsky[/b] Lev Bronstein, [b]Walter von Reichenau[/b], [b]Isoroku Yamamoto[/b], [b]Franc Stane[/b], [b]Charles Wingate[/b] Orde Wingate, [b]August von Mackensen[/b], [b]Walther Model[/b], [b]John Gort[/b] Viscount, [b]Draza Mihajlovic[/b], [b]Tomokjuki Yamashita[/b] the Tiger of Malaya, [b]Phillipe Leclerc[/b] Vicomte de Hauteclocque, [b]John Pershing[/b] Black Jack, [b]Walther von Brauchitsch[/b], [b]Archibald Wavell[/b] 1st Earl Wavell, [b]Sudirman[/b] Panglima Besar Sudirman, [b]Henry Arnold[/b] Hap Arnold, [b]Petre Dumitrescu[/b], [b]Jan Smuts[/b], [b]Thomas Blamey[/b], [b]Gerd von Runstedt[/b], [b]Hugh Trenchard[/b], [b]George Marshall[/b], [b]Leslie Morshead[/b], [b]Albert Kesselring[/b], [b]Alan Francis[/b] 1st Viscount Alanbrooke, [b]Bernard Cyril Freyberg[/b] 1st Baron Freyberg, [b]Douglas MacArthur[/b], [b]Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck[/b], [b]Alvin York[/b] Sergeant York (heroic addition), [b]Chester Nimitz[/b], [b]Ernesto 'Che' Guevera[/b], [b]Konstantin Rokossovsky[/b], [b]Dwight Eisenhower[/b] Ike, [b]Harold Alexander[/b] 1st Earl of Tunis, [b]Raymond Spruance[/b], [b]Ho Chi Minh[/b] Nguyen Sinh Huy, [b]Hugh Dowding[/b] 1st Baron, [b]Semyon Timoshenko[/b], [b]Andrei Yeremenko[/b], [b]Charles de Gaulle[/b], [b]Lin Biao[/b], [b]Sam Bahadhur[/b] Sam Hormusji Framji Jamshedji Manekshaw, [b]Lewis Puller[/b] Chesty Puller, [b]Chen Yi[/b], [b]Ivan Koniev[/b], [b]Frank Fletcher[/b], [b]David Ben-Gurion[/b], [b]Chiang Kai-shek[/b] Jiang Jieshi, [b]Francisco Franco[/b], [b]Anthony McAuliffe[/b], [b]Chu Teh[/b] Zhu De, [b]Mao Tse-tung[/b] Mao Zedong, [b]Bernard Montgomery[/b] 1st Viscount, [b]Aleksandr Vasilevski[/b], [b]Kurt Student[/b], [b]Karl Donitz[/b], [b]Anthony McAuliffe[/b], [b]Mark Clark[/b], [b]Josip Tito[/b], [b]Omar Bradley[/b], [b]Moshe Dayan[/b], [b]Richard O'Connor[/b], [b]Claude Auchinleck[/b] the Auk, [b]Aksel Airo[/b], [b]Bekor Ghoulian[/b], [b]Shahen Meghrian[/b], [b]Matthew Ridgway[/b], [b]Kim Il-Sung[/b], [b]Chaim Bar-Lev[/b], [b]Garegin Nzdeh[/b], [b]William Westmoreland[/b], [b]Abdul Haris Nasution[/b], [b]Suharto[/b] Kemusa Argamulj, [b]Fidel Castro[/b], [b]Arkady Ter-Tadevossian[/b], [b]H. Norman Schwarzkopf[/b] Stormin' Norman, [b]Charles Guthrie[/b] Baron Guthrie of Craigiebank, [b]Wesley Clark[/b], and [b]Tommy Franks[/b].

"War is all hell" - [b]William T. Sherman[/b]

Thanks and enjoy, Spartan JKM :)

#38
HaloNoble6

HaloNoble6

    Senior Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,103 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
WOW.

#39
JRoberts

JRoberts

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX
  • Chat Nick:Jason
  • Real Name:Jason Roberts
I'm just amazed that only one person has mentioned Scipio Africanus. Undefeated in warfare; brilliant in strategy and tactics; could siege a city with ease and defeat an army on the field with the same brilliance.

Scipio Africanus even defeated Hannibal! Having never lost a battle, and defeating one of the greatest military generals of all time, Scipio Africanus really does deserve some attention.



Spartan, did you post that at TWC forums too? It is an interesting list.
"...but virtue only comes to a character which has been thoroughly schooled and trained and brought to a pitch of perfection by unremitting practice. We are born for it, but not with it. And even in the best of people, until you cultivate it there is only the material for virtue, not virtue itself."


----Seneca

#40
Al Kufr

Al Kufr

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 283 posts
Im surprised nobody has mentioned Sun Tzu who wrote the most important and influentual book about Strategy and War.And made the kingdom of Wu the most powerful state in china in that period.

#41
JRoberts

JRoberts

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX
  • Chat Nick:Jason
  • Real Name:Jason Roberts

Im surprised nobody has mentioned Sun Tzu who wrote the most important and influentual book about Strategy and War.And made the kingdom of Wu the most powerful state in china in that period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



What is your grounds for calling it "The Most Important"? How is it any better than any other strategy book written?

And how is it the most influential; especially in the context of history?
"...but virtue only comes to a character which has been thoroughly schooled and trained and brought to a pitch of perfection by unremitting practice. We are born for it, but not with it. And even in the best of people, until you cultivate it there is only the material for virtue, not virtue itself."


----Seneca

#42
Fenriz

Fenriz

    Junior Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPip
  • 97 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

What is your grounds for calling it "The Most Important"?  How is it any better than any other strategy book written?

And how is it the most influential; especially in the context of history?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You might want to check the book out yourself, particularly the Denma Edition. And also look at www.sonshi.com which is an excellent site devoted to Sun Tzu's book.

#43
JRoberts

JRoberts

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX
  • Chat Nick:Jason
  • Real Name:Jason Roberts

You might want to check the book out yourself, particularly the Denma Edition.  And also look at www.sonshi.com which is an excellent site devoted to Sun Tzu's book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I have indeed checked the book out. And after doing so, I still don't see a reason why it is 'considered' the "most important" military text.
"...but virtue only comes to a character which has been thoroughly schooled and trained and brought to a pitch of perfection by unremitting practice. We are born for it, but not with it. And even in the best of people, until you cultivate it there is only the material for virtue, not virtue itself."


----Seneca

#44
Al Kufr

Al Kufr

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 283 posts

What is your grounds for calling it "The Most Important"?  How is it any better than any other strategy book written?

And how is it the most influential; especially in the context of history?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well, the "Art of War" isn't really about war its about strategy, it can be applied to war and business or any other activity, Its an entire system . . a methodology.

And it has huge influence, the United states Marine Corp and Army doctrine are all based on Sun Tzus ideas(mostly the marines though). John Boyd, one of americas most important military theorists is also heavily influenced by him. Read 'Warfighting' if you don't believe me, you can get it free on the net, Its pure Sun Tzu.

Toyota, Honda, and alsmot any asian company are also heavily influenced by Sun tzu, but not just asian.

Basically, name any type of organization and you can see the influence there, from militaries,business. criminal, terrorist organizations,anything.

Warfighting

About Sun Tzu

Aboyt Sun Tzu and Business


And if you read it once you wont get anything out of it, you have to read it again and again and again. . . . and again.

what do you consider to be the most influential book on war or strategy?

Go here for more info, http://www.artofwarplus.com/

Edited by Al Kufr, 25 July 2005 - 05:28 PM.


#45
JRoberts

JRoberts

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX
  • Chat Nick:Jason
  • Real Name:Jason Roberts
Did the 19th century American Capitalist rely on Sun Tzu? Do you think they performed just as well (if not better) than most companies today?

What did the Military of the West do before Sun Tzu? Was everything hopeless until he came along?

And the biggest question of all: what change in our society, for better, has this "revolution" from Sun Tzu brought? Can you show me some practical examples of how:

-Companies are more successful
-Armies are more successful

etc. in today's world, thanks to Sun Tzu?
"...but virtue only comes to a character which has been thoroughly schooled and trained and brought to a pitch of perfection by unremitting practice. We are born for it, but not with it. And even in the best of people, until you cultivate it there is only the material for virtue, not virtue itself."


----Seneca

#46
Fenriz

Fenriz

    Junior Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPip
  • 97 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

I have indeed checked the book out.  And after doing so, I still don't see a reason why it is 'considered' the "most important" military text.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm sorry that you feel that way.

The wisdom contained in the Art of War is deceptively simple, which is probably why first-time readers who simply browse through a few chapters in the book are not particularly impressed by it.

#47
Al Kufr

Al Kufr

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 283 posts

Did the 19th century American Capitalist rely on Sun Tzu? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I dont think so, not until more recently has it been applied in business in the west.

Do you think they performed just as well (if not better) than most companies today?

Well, whether they know it or not they were using those ideas. But where they doing it systematically and scientifically, that depends on what their ideas on strategy are. Its not like Strategy is a secret science that only Sun Tzu had the power to discover.

What did the Military of the West do before Sun Tzu?  Was everything hopeless until he came along?


And the biggest question of all: what change in our society, for better, has this "revolution" from Sun Tzu brought?  Can you show me some practical examples of how:


-Companies are more successful
-Armies are more successful

etc. in today's world, thanks to Sun Tzu?



Well, Sun Tzus book was the first book EVER on strategy.

Can your company be more successful? Yes

The effect it has is on HOW you will act if you choose to use it. And how will you see things differenty.

But you havent answerd my first question, what do you consider to be the best book on war or strategy? what is your "alternative"?

Edited by Al Kufr, 25 July 2005 - 07:08 PM.


#48
JRoberts

JRoberts

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX
  • Chat Nick:Jason
  • Real Name:Jason Roberts

I dont think so, not until more recently has it been applied in business in the west.
Well, whether they know it or not they were using those ideas. But where they doing it systematically and scientifically, that depends on what their ideas on strategy are. Its not like Strategy is a secret science that only Sun Tzu had the power to discover. 
Well, Sun Tzus book was the first book EVER on strategy.

Can your company be more successful? Yes 

The effect it has is on HOW you will act if you choose to use it. And how will you see things differenty.



And this is my entire point. The West, which is the only consistent Scientific Culture, was also much more successful prior to Sun Tzu. While this does not mean that Sun Tzu is "worthless" in his own right, it does mean that I see no reason why the West should "embrace" it as a revolutionary document.

But you havent answerd my first question, what do you consider to be the best  book on war or strategy?  what is your "alternative"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Many. How about Vegetius? His book has been one of the foundations for Western Warfare for centuries.

Or Caesar? He too has been emulated in the West.

The campaigns of Alexander, Hannibal, Scipio, Caesar, etc. have been the foundation of Western military thought; a foundation that has proven us much more effective than anything that comes from the East.


So once again, what is so special about Sun Tzu?
"...but virtue only comes to a character which has been thoroughly schooled and trained and brought to a pitch of perfection by unremitting practice. We are born for it, but not with it. And even in the best of people, until you cultivate it there is only the material for virtue, not virtue itself."


----Seneca

#49
Al Kufr

Al Kufr

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 283 posts

And this is my entire point.  The West, which is the only consistent Scientific Culture, was also much more successful prior to Sun Tzu.  While this does not mean that Sun Tzu is "worthless" in his own right, it does mean that I see no reason why the West should "embrace" it as a revolutionary document.

Many.  How about Vegetius?  His book has been one of the foundations for Western Warfare for centuries.

Or Caesar?  He too has been emulated in the West. 


The campaigns of Alexander, Hannibal, Scipio, Caesar, etc. have been the foundation of Western military thought; a foundation that has proven us much more effective than anything that comes from the East.
So once again, what is so special about Sun Tzu?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Do you even know when it was writen? It was the FIRST book on strategy ever, writen 2,500 years ago.

All those people you mentioned deal with war, Sun Tzu deals with strategy which can be applied to war. See the difference?

You're just dealing with a particular subject, war, or direct confrantation. Western military leaders usually only used maneuver warfare on the tactical level while eastern leaders use it on the strategic level.

And the west has not accepted many of the ideas of Sun Tzu. Maybe they apply them to business or war, but notev erywhere on PRINCIPLE. It's a much more wholistic view of strategy.

And are you saying we should ignore Sun Tzu because hes not western? Should we ignore Ghengis Khan? Should we Ignore Rommel? Should we ignore the ideas from anyone that has a philosphy that is not the same as ours even though their ideas are true?

Edited by Al Kufr, 26 July 2005 - 10:19 PM.


#50
JRoberts

JRoberts

    Member

  • Regulars
  • PipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Austin, TX
  • Chat Nick:Jason
  • Real Name:Jason Roberts

Do you even know when it was writen? It was the FIRST book on strategy ever, writen 2,500 years ago.



Just because something is old does not place an automatic value on it.

All those people you mentioned deal with war, Sun Tzu deals with strategy which can be applied to war. See the difference?

No. Except for studying specific battles (such as Marathon), the authors I mentioned did the same as Sun Tzu. Take for example Vegetius, who stated:

Victory in war does not depend entirely upon numbers or mere courage; only skill and discipline will insure it.



They thoroughly understood the importance of hardening them by continual practice, and of training them to every maneuver that might happen in the line and in action. Nor were they less strict in punishing idleness and sloth. The courage of a soldier is heightened by his knowledge of his profession, and he only wants an opportunity to execute what he is convinced he has been perfectly taught. A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.

That seems like a strategy to me that can be applied to business, or life in general.

You're just dealing with a particular subject, war, or direct confrantation. Western military leaders usually only used maneuver warfare on the tactical level while eastern leaders use it on the strategic level.

Are you trying to tell me that Alexander conquered Persia, Scipio all of Spain and Africa, Caesar all of Gaul, etc. based purely on tactics and no strategy?

And are you saying we should ignore Sun Tzu because hes not western?

No, there is some value in him. However, his value I find miniscule compared to what the West has to offer. The greatest military men, business men, and moral men all come from the West. There is a reason for that.

Should we ignore Ghengis Khan? Should we Ignore Rommel? Should we ignore the ideas from anyone that has a philosphy that is not the same as ours even though their ideas are true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I always follow the truth. The truth is in the West; in the institutions that the Greeks and Romans devised; that America re-actualized. I still don't see any value that the East has to offer. Or rather, I don't see what the "big deal" is. Our culture today is drowning itself in "Sun Tzu", "Lao Tsu", "Confucius", "Feng Shui", "Buddha", and all the other instruments of the East. Though there are a few good quotes here or there, the East has been nothing but a backwards, barbaric culture.
"...but virtue only comes to a character which has been thoroughly schooled and trained and brought to a pitch of perfection by unremitting practice. We are born for it, but not with it. And even in the best of people, until you cultivate it there is only the material for virtue, not virtue itself."


----Seneca


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users