156 replies to this topic

[Nicky]

Perhaps you can suggest a more likely source of this kind of curiosity?

Yes. Mysticism and irrationality.

[Devil's Advocate]

Spiral Architect, et al...

What I'm looking for is a more plausible explanation for the mass appeal/need for religion/sprirtuality/etc. Objectivism does a fine job of revealing the contradictions and harmful aspects of religion, but sidesteps the cause of the addiction. By focusing on the illogic of a particular definition of God, and labelling all people of faith irrational (stupid), something more fundamental (and I suspect necessary) to the nature of humans is being misdiagnosed. It's like a doctor perscribing, "Just say no", to addicts, and then calling them an idiots for going through withdrawal.

This is perhaps a digression from this topic, but I think there's a linkage worth exploring between the Law of Identity and the reason for God; if not here, then perhaps as another topic? Something along the lines of, "What is the identity of object of our natural desire to be reverent?" I suspect it's something fundamental and necessary to the nature of our identity as a sentient/sapient species, and I suspect it plays a positive role in promoting our evolution; a survival mechanism, or an intellectual immune system?

Any thoughts you might have on this will be appreciated, however if this line of inquiry is too irrational for an Objectivist to respond to, I'll respectfully withdraw to the sidelines.

[Devil's Advocate]

Yes. Mysticism and irrationality.

LOL Nicky,

Thank you for a well timed demonstration of my point.

[Eiuol]

What I'm looking for is a more plausible explanation for the mass appeal/need for religion/sprirtuality/etc. Objectivism does a fine job of revealing the contradictions and harmful aspects of religion, but sidesteps the cause of the addiction. By focusing on the illogic of a particular definition of God, and labelling all people of faith irrational (stupid), something more fundamental (and I suspect necessary) to the nature of humans is being misdiagnosed. It's like a doctor perscribing, "Just say no", to addicts, and then calling them an idiots for going through withdrawal.

I don't think this is an aspect of Objectivism as much as people who are atheists tend to sidestep from why mysticism comes about. Objectivism, at least when taking into account ethics, doesn't merely suggest that believing in god is stupid. I don't believe people are just being irrational when they accept some beliefs. Perhaps you can label a Christian Evangelical as irrational, but that isn't to say people take a belief in something merely due to irrationality. Purpose, meaning, reverence, passion - all of that is essential to existence, and some mystical belief systems attempt to make all that possible. DA, you may be better off making a new thread, given that it's been straying from the topic. I'd certainly post in it.

[Spiral Architect]

I agree actually. Asking why people accept religion and working through that would be more positive, especially in context of how it is ingrained today. Pointing out the obvious irrationalities does not work with people that by definition are ignoring the facts to begin with.

However I don’t know of any trend in Objectivists just calling people idiots for believing in something irrational. I’m sure we could dig one up, just like you could dig any atheist quote up saying that. It isn’t exclusive to those people either. If I listen to some of the talking heads on talk radio I’m evidently a militant socialist liberal for being an atheist. Name calling is a failing with a number of people but it isn’t inherent in a philosophy. Objectivism is just honest enough to call religion irrational without sugar coating it, but it doesn’t say that people are idiots for making specific choices. There is no reason to tag it differently however as it also says the same thing about other idea systems like communism, but I doubt anyone is going to ask Objectivists to not call it irrational to make nice with those who to practice it.

There is a big difference between calling an idea irrational and mystical and calling the person that accepted that position an idiot. I can point out someone is wrong and why without degenerating to name calling.

I’m gone this weekend but I’ll try to come back with some positive ideas. I like the approach since I’m an instructor and agree with the premise from experience – Getting to the basic reasons for why people do something and approaching it positively is a very good method of working with people. I like the idea and want to explore it more.

Edited by Spiral Architect, 20 July 2012 - 07:16 AM.

[Devil's Advocate]

Thanks for your feedback. I'll spend some time over the weekend trying to organize a better presentation of this idea for a new topic to post early next week.

[Albionan]

I have been reading through this thread and what I see on the part of those arguing for the existence of God is a whole lot of rewriting of reality. God could have done it this way or he would have to be this way or what if he is this, and all of it, every bit is completely arbitrary. Why should any of it be considered much less argued with?

It is pointless to argue with people who hold the get out of reality free card which is faith.