149 replies to this topic

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

Don't know if there is another thread on this or not, since I couldn't find it, but as it turns out, Obama's birth certificate **was** faked, as testified by his lawyer when he was denied being put on the Presidential ballot because he couldn't prove he was a natural born citizen. I mean, if that don't beat all...he lied about it being his real birth certificate in front of the entire world, and sent the fake document all of the world via the internet.When it was rumored and nearly proven that it was a fake, he continued to lie about that! And now that he has been caught dead out in the lie, he's asserting that he was completely innocent since he didn't create the fake document. He needs to be impeached and thrown in jail for creating a fake legal document, but the only people that can do anything about it are Congress; and so long as the Senate is controlled by Democrats -- who are in favor of his policies -- they will not take action to impeach him or to throw out his bills due to him being an invalid President.

The issue of whether or not a President must be a natural born citizen may well be open to debate, but it is in the Constitution and it was a way the Founders had of protecting the American people by having Presidents who would understand American freedom by having been born and raised in the USA.

I am so angry at this total lie perpetrated onto the American people that really, when you come right down to it would require a string of curse words that would curl the hair of a sailor -- but I have decided to be polite to the readers of this forum.

[softwareNerd]

Don't believe stuff published by the GOP nutters. These people have filed over 10 federal suits and many state suits about Obama's birth certificate. All they do is play into Obama's hands, because "independent" voters end up associating the GOP with conspiracy theory.

According to the article you cited, some people working for Obama took his birth certificate and purposely made it fuzzy etc. in order to give the birther rumors more fuel -- presumably because the birther rumors are good for Obama.

[Ninth Doctor]

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

I'm blocking Ninth Doctor, but on second thought maybe he has a point. I would like to believe that oo.net is full of objective people who are well-versed in Objectivism and the facts of reality to realize when the President of the united States pulls a fast one that it is not OK just because the GOP is against him. But, what the hell, it all depends on what the meaning of is is, and I didn't have sex with that woman because there were no witnesses and the President deserves total privacy in the White House while simultaneously claiming there is no right to privacy for any American citizen. Oh wait, I am confusing Barack Obama with Bill Clinton, but that is easy to do since they were both the first black President. And one would think that the first black President would uphold honesty to be a good example, but instead we get someone who both fakes and doesn't fake legal documents because he never said it was a bonifide legal copy of the original. Go figure....

[Dante]

I would like to believe that oo.net is full of objective people who are well-versed in Objectivism and the facts of reality to realize when the President of the united States pulls a fast one that it is not OK just because the GOP is against him.

What in the heck does being well-versed in Objectivism have to do with evaluating the credibility of the source of this particular claim?

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

You're right, Objectivism has nothing to do with evaluating the honesty of someone who claims he didn't fake a fake document because the fake document was not a legal copy of the original, so he could have said anything he wanted to on it and not be held accountable for it.

But I am beginning to believe that only Objectivists know how to be objective and to think in terms of principles.

[Ninth Doctor]

Does anyone here, besides Thomas, take this birther stuff seriously? It takes a matter of seconds to debunk with a little googling. In this case, an attorney notes that she doesn't have to discuss whether the birth certificate that was released is genuine, since it's irrelevant to the case. It simply wasn't evidence in the case being argued. This goes into the birther spin-echo chamber, and becomes attorney admits birth certificate is a forgery!

!

Listen starting about 42 minutes in, if you don't mind wasting a few minutes of your life. If you were alive and conscious in 2008, you must know that if there was anything to the birther story, Hillary's goons would have dug it out.

[Eiuol]

You're right, Objectivism has nothing to do with evaluating the honesty of someone who claims he didn't fake a fake document because the fake document was not a legal copy of the original, so he could have said anything he wanted to on it and not be held accountable for it.

Credibility of a source comes first, though. The source is of dubious validity.

[aequalsa]

Does anyone here, besides Thomas, take this birther stuff seriously?

Depends what you mean by seriously. I have no way of knowing, but his unwillingness to release info on his past(birth certificate, college transcripts, etc) tell me that he does have something to hide because that's always the case. Whether it's his citizenship, shit for grades, using duel citizenship or foreign citizenship to qualify for scholarships, or something else entirely I have no way of knowing, but I think it's beyond anyone's reasonable doubt to believe that he's not obfuscating something. Smoke therefore fire.

That said, he's done so much catastrophically bad damage to this country's long term best interests, I don't see this as a significant issue. Not like I needed some extra reason to not vote for this little would be dictator.

Even though I don't know or care very much, I think chasing after lying politician's lies is a healthy activity though so they should carry on.

[Spiral Architect]

Does anyone here, besides Thomas, take this birther stuff seriously? It takes a matter of seconds to debunk with a little googling.

No.

Honestly, after some of the recent debates Thomas has had with other posters I assumed he was trolling you guys to make a point regarding objective thinking. I thought it was pretty creative too. But after the post claiming “Objectivists know how to be objective and to think in terms of principles” argument of intimidation I’m starting to see this going south fast…

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

Yeah, I don't see a pattern here to be concerned about; I'm just trolling to see if you were paying attention:

List of things sealed by order of the courts.






Nothing to see here...move along...these are not the droids you are looking for...

I guess once you've told enough lies, you can get away with anything.

Edited by Thomas M. Miovas Jr., 14 April 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[FeatherFall]

Depends what you mean by seriously.

I feel the same way. Furthermore, I'm not even sure what "natural born citizen" means. Does the INS define it? Is it reserved only for people born on "american soil," or was that simply another way of affirming who was a citizen back when we had loads of British immigrants? If my parents were both citizens, but they were forced to bring the pregnancy to term early while on vacation, am I not a citizen? What if we repeat that situation, but only my mother is a citizen? This last one is more relevant to Obama's situation.

I tend to take the social security forgery stuff more seriously than the birth certificate "e-forgery" stuff. If his SS card is forged that doesn't mean he is a Kenyan (more probably a draft-dodger). But I don't condemn people who take extreme measures to escape war-slavery.

[Reidy]

Who are the people who placed the ad in #11? What evidence and sourcing do they give? Whoever they are, they look like cranks to me.

Obama didn't attend Harvard College; he attended the law school.

#12: how could Obama be a draft dodger? The draft was suspended in 1973, the year he turned 12.

[Nicky]

It's a non-issue.

Even if there was credible proof that he lied, and he's not American born, it would still be a non-issue for me. I don't care enough to look over the evidence.

Although I would like to point out that the people attacking Thomas with cheap insults, for making an honest effort to look at the evidence, while they themselves did not make such an effort (and are just going off of a general media consensus which ends up being superficial or even purposefully misleading all the time), are clearly being irrational and arrogant. And they're also breaking the forum rules.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

I suppose I ought to clarify my position. The fact that Obama is or is not a natural born citizen (which is clearly defined in the law) is not the real issue to me. I'd be against his policies no matter where he was born or raised; and I would vote for Yaron Brook for President regardless of the fact that he wasn't born here because he understands freedom more than any other would-be candidate. The issue is the continued obfuscation on the part of our political leaders who don't give a rat's ass about lying to the American people as they seek to take over every aspect of our lives. But I think that goes hand-in-hand. Power lust is a weed growing in the vacant minds of those who are not connected to reality in the first place. And as they want to dictate everything we do, even in private (and seeking to obliterate privacy altogether), they seek to cover up their own past so that we cannot properly evaluate them based on their stated ideas. Obama keeps saying that capitalism and individualism doesn't work -- doesn't work toward what ends and to who's benefit? Obviously, he does not have man's life as the standard nor individual rights. Again, like Bill Clinton, he is a squirmy little bastard who seeks to avoid identification. That's what I am against.

[FeatherFall]

Thomas, I understand that a forged certificate indicates, at the very least, a penchant for deception. If this is the limit of what you are implying, then ok. I was just trying to understand what relevance this certificate could possibly have regarding Obama's citizenship. Let's pretend we know for a fact that he was born in Kenya. He was still born of a US citizen (unless the identity of his mother is now in dispute). From Wikipedia,

The Constitution does not define the phrase natural-born citizen, and various opinions have been offered over time regarding its precise meaning. The Congressional Research Service has stated that the weight of scholarly legal and historical opinion indicates that the term means one who is entitled under the Constitution or laws of the United States to U.S. citizenship "at birth" or "by birth," including any child born "in" the United States, even to alien parents (other than to foreign diplomats serving their country), the children of United States citizens born abroad, and those born abroad of one citizen parent who has met U.S. residency requirements.

#12: how could Obama be a draft dodger? The draft was suspended in 1973, the year he turned 12.

To this day men are legally required to register for the selective service. Some still refuse, either as a political statement or because they fear the return of active conscription. I considered refusing, but ultimately decided to comply. I would not be surprised to find out that, especially among leftists, the number of men who refused to register was very high six years after suspension.

Edited by FeatherFall, 15 April 2012 - 01:35 AM.
added link

[Reidy]

Schools that take federal money are required to verify a student's registration before they give aid. If Obama took such aid after 1980, when the registration rule came down, he was registered.

A wider question: you use the (very dated) phrase "draft dodger" as a pejorative. I wouldn't expect to see this sentiment in an Objectivist forum. What's your problem with draft-dodgers?

[Spiral Architect]

I’m sure all of us could sit down for a drink and pound out a hundred reasons Obama has to go. But four years of this birth certificate business is enough and not worth the effort. It was worth a look four years ago when it was new but now it’s covered ad nausea. Further, its common sense – There is no way that if this was true the Clinton political machine wouldn’t have exploited it during the primaries four years ago. The DNC would have vetted this too since their primary job to keep or gain political power and the last thing they would do is let something this basic destroy a shot at controlling the Presidency. Finally, and most importantly, the Republicans would have been all over this for political gain if it was even remotely possible. I’d bet the first round they tried like no one’s business to see if this was true. Remember they impeached Bill Clinton for breaking the law – They would have had a field day with a documented Constitutional violation.

So I’m to believe that the one thing all the political brokers in Washington can do right – smear people for political gain – has been ignored for years until some unknown journalist wanders in the back door to discover it? No, I don’t. I’ll focus on disputing those 100 things we can identify and endeavor to change people’s minds with reasoned arguments.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

The problem is that Obama's records are sealed by the courts, so no one can get to the facts of the case. But I see his lawyer's argument as being like this: Obama never represented his digital copy of his record of birth as being a bonifide legal copy of the original, so it doesn't matter what he put on there, and since it is not a bonifide legal copy of the original, it cannot be admissible in court, so you can't even legally prove that it was a fake. And I agree that the issue has gone on ad nauseum, but the degree of duplicity grows with every ramification of what he did. I don't really care where he was born, nor the color of his skin; I'm more concerned with the content of his character, and being an outright liar means that he cannot be trusted with the Presidency. I mean, he can stand up there every day and claim that the Green initiative is successful, even though one Green business supported by him after another goes out of business; while at the same time claiming that capitalism doesn't work, when we continually get better and better products at cheaper and cheaper prices in spite of legal regulations intended to destroy those companies. One thing leads to another. The man who can lie to the whole world about his birth certificate is the same type of man who will lie about capitalism to advance his agenda, and cover up the fact that his agenda is to destroy the Republic and blame it on the capitalists so that he can institute a Marxist regime. It all goes together in a rational integration of the facts.

[softwareNerd]

... agree that the issue has gone on ad nauseum, ...

The only reason the issue has gone on ad nauseum is that the conspiracy theorists go on about it even 20 court-cases later. It is right Obama to comply with court disclosure requirements, and no more. Conspiracy theorists are never satisfied by evidence. Anything you give them becomes the topic of another sub-conspiracy. It does not make sense to play their game. Meanwhile, if one can build a little mystique around it, and keep the issue simmering, it helps Obama politically -- on the margin, allowing the Democrats to say that the GOP as a whole are "birthers".

[Ninth Doctor]

Is anyone going to provide a reference for when, during the hearing, the attorney for Obama acknowledged that the birth certificate is a forgery? Thus giving rise to the thread title, and to the material in the linked article (OP)? The whole thing is on YouTube, 3-4 hours worth, if it happened, it’s got to be in there, right? Seeing that the birthers have been shown repeatedly to be deluded (and/or liars), I say one should perform some due diligence before repeating anything that comes from such sources. Rather than demonstrate that he did a respectable amount of research, Thomas now presents a farrago of other claims, as though anyone is so invested in demonstrating his errors that they’re going to put in further effort. OMG, now Obama is a power lusting liar! Who’d have thought?!?!

[aequalsa]

So I’m to believe that the one thing all the political brokers in Washington can do right – smear people for political gain – has been ignored for years until some unknown journalist wanders in the back door to discover it? .

Like Bob Woodward, you mean?

[Jonathan13]

... agree that the issue has gone on ad nauseum, ...

The only reason the issue has gone on ad nauseum...

Ad nauseam.

[DonAthos]

Ad nauseam.

At the same time, Ninth Doctor deserves recognition for his use of the word "farrago." That's just neat.

And yes, I am a nerd, but I take my pleasures where I can!

[Reidy]

A nauseum is a place that shows pictures of sick people.