51 replies to this topic

[Wotan]

The United States is a massively communist and fascist nation.

Some of America's main political establishments are: (1) Social Security -- which is communism, (2) Medicare -- which is communism, (3) Medicaid -- which is communism, (4) unemployment insurance, food stamps, housing subsidies, and multitudinous other types of government charity -- which is communism, (5) government roads -- which is communism, and (6) government schools -- which is communism.

In addition to these individual-attacking, freedom-destroying, economic schemes and scams, America also has: (7) drug criminalization -- which is fascism, (8) prostitution criminalization -- which is fascism, (9) many types of gambling criminalization -- which is fascism, and (10) censorship of broadcast obscenity on radio and t'v' -- which is fascism.

Now, the United States admittedly does enjoy some political liberty -- does have some capitalist and libertarian elements.

In economics, America has private, non-government industries like oil, gas, coal, farming, ranching, cars and trucks, most of personal housing, most of business buildings, restaurants, clubs, bars, clothing, shoes, movies, sports, almost all radio, almost all t'v', computer hardware, computer software, etc. So the capitalist sector of America -- albeit hideously regulated, stunted, and demented -- still lives in America.

Moreover, in American social and personal lives, much behavior is freely-chosen and private. The people of the United States are politically free to choose their own job, housing, transportation, entertainment, friends, lovers, philosophy, religion, politics, food, dress, music, art, exercise, manners, attitude, clubs, groups, parties, sexuality, and speech. So the libertarian sector of America -- albeit hideously regulated, stunted, and demented -- still lives in America.

And yet, the ten evil institutions listed above are central to the American nation and its way of life. These tyrannical aspects of the people and government degrade America's quality of life considerably. The level of popular energy, dynamism, satisfaction, happiness, greatness, hope, and spirit is very inferior to what it could be. And it's worth noting that most of these totalitarian programs and laws did not exist a century ago. As for those that did -- such as collectivist roads and schools, and restrictions on prostitution and gambling -- they cost far less than today, and had far less influence on American lifestyles.

In the end, the Stalinist and Hitlerian political institutions cited above pervert the society, debauch the culture, and ravage the American civilization. They need to be terminated immediately. America today is a massively communist and fascist nation -- and that needs to change.

[SapereAude]

If one goes by definition one can't say that something is both communist and fascist.

[Wotan]

If one goes by definition one can't say that something is both communist and fascist.

It seems accurate and useful to note that, politically speaking, America has both elements. Which one would you have me leave out?

[SapereAude]

I wasn't intending to nitpick over grammar but it's in the way you stated it- that America *is* a communist and fascist nation
It has terrible elements of both, but it cannot *be* both at the same time.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but unless you plan only to preach to the choir accuracy is pretty important.
The quickest way to have someone dismiss your argument is to throw around the word fascism- even when it is largely true.

Edited by SapereAude, 13 June 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[Kate87]

As long as America is democratic I don't think it can be called fascist or communist, as those systems shut down opposing views and are authoritarian. A better description would be that America is turning into a European style social democracy with a culturally conservative set of social laws.

[SapereAude]

Having a democratic voting system does not preclude fascism.

[Wotan]

I wasn't intending to nitpick over grammar but it's in the way you stated it- that America *is* a communist and fascist nation
It has terrible elements of both, but it cannot *be* both at the same time.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but unless you plan only to preach to the choir accuracy is pretty important.
The quickest way to have someone dismiss your argument is to throw around the word fascism- even when it is largely true.

Maybe I stated it softly, but I said America was a "massively" communist and fascist nation -- not a totally or utterly communist and fascist one. Economically, America has considerable capitalist aspects; socio-personally, America has considerable libertarian aspects.

FAR the most interesting and disturbing thing about your comment, SapereAude, is that you consider me to be "preaching to the choir" -- while I'm simultaneously contradicting the choir considerably. I get his ALL the time. I consider myself to be an intellectual radical, innovator, and creator who is forever advancing new ideas (such as shockingly claiming America is communist and fascist!). And yet you and almost everyone considers me to be forever preaching to the choir (including using that identical phrase). I'm baffled. While it's true that I'm not preaching to the mass man or the average Joe (who I hate), I'm very much trying to improve and uplift the choir -- not tell them the same old stuff in the same old way.

[SapereAude]

FAR the most interesting and disturbing thing about your comment, SapereAude, is that you consider me to be "preaching to the choir" --

I think you misunderstand me Wotan and I apologise that you felt I was making this accusation.
What I said was that one does not need to be as careful *if* one is only preaching to the choir, whereas since I believe you are not attempting to preach only to the choir the choice of your wording is more important.

[Grames]

Title: Communist and Fascist America.

Provocative lead sentence/Subtitle: "The United States is a massively communist and fascist nation. "

Ok. Use of the word massively may or may not be justified by the ten points you provide, but any reader who pauses to consider that is "mission accomplished" for this missive.

Why is censorship of obscenity in mass media a specifically fascist attribute? And why are prostitution and gambling and drug criminalization all examples of fascism? I was not aware that the countries that have attempted communism were havens for free speech, legal prostitution, unrestricted gambling or laissez faire markets in drugs.

All ten of the activities listed could be used as an example of either communism or of fascism but switching from one to the other raises the question of "what is dividing line between fascism and communism." I don't greatly care about the distinction between those two (both are evil) and the question is just a distraction from the predicament this mini-article is high-lighting.

[whYNOT]

Perhaps communist in central control, fascist in method?
With just sufficient capitalism present to water them down to an outcome of statism?

Only meant as a suggestion, I do not know enough to more than guess.

[Wotan]

Why is censorship of obscenity in mass media a specifically fascist attribute? And why are prostitution and gambling and drug criminalization all examples of fascism? I was not aware that the countries that have attempted communism were havens for free speech, legal prostitution, unrestricted gambling or laissez faire markets in drugs.

All ten of the activities listed could be used as an example of either communism or of fascism but switching from one to the other raises the question of "what is dividing line between fascism and communism." I don't greatly care about the distinction between those two (both are evil) and the question is just a distraction from the predicament this mini-article is high-lighting.

You make many good points and ask many good questions. My mini-article somewhat presumptuously considers communism to be gov't ownership of the economy; and fascism to be gov't control of the society. Generally, communism is tyranny via direct gov't ownership; and fascism is tyranny via indirect gov't control. Both, of course, amount to the same thing.

Now, my implied and indirect definition of fascism is loosely correct by current standards -- but there are many different plausible alternative interpretations (such as definitions involving militarism, racism, nationalism, etc.). I just wanted two strong terms of insult to characterize America's current dismal welfare state. I wanted to shock people into thinking different.

I don't know if it's considered legit by the current Objectivist community, but I would label the recent behavior by New York City mayor Mike Bloomberg of trying to penalize or ban smoking, trans fat, Four Loko, K2/Spice, large sugary sodas, etc. as fascism. I'm curious to hear if my use of the term is helpful here and above, or if it's misleading and off-putting to people of decent quality and education.

[Wotan]

I think you misunderstand me Wotan and I apologise that you felt I was making this accusation.
What I said was that one does not need to be as careful *if* one is only preaching to the choir, whereas since I believe you are not attempting to preach only to the choir the choice of your wording is more important.

No need to apologize! I get this from a lot of people. I'm just frustrated that I run across this "preaching to the choir" phrase so frequently -- even tho' I seem to write in a provocative and fiery manner. I'm evidently unaware of a big part of the nature of my style of writing.

Edited by Wotan, 13 June 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[SapereAude]

I don't know if it's considered legit by the current Objectivist community, but I would label the recent behavior by New York City mayor Mike Bloomberg of trying to penalize or ban smoking, trans fat, Four Loko, K2/Spice, large sugary sodas, etc. as fascism. I'm curious to hear if my use of the term is helpful here and above, or if it's misleading and off-putting to people of decent quality and education.

I don't believe it would be incorrect to call out the fascist aspects of these regulations.

[Ninth Doctor]

The United States is a massively communist and fascist nation.

To characterize the present day US as “massively” fascist and/or communist, with “Stalinist and Hitlerian institutions” reeks of hysteria and ignorance. The institutions you name existed in Bismarck’s Germany, which was socialist but by no means totalitarian, and exist in most European nations today. If you want to speak of the "Road to Serfdom", or the "Ominous Parallels", that’s fine, but until people are being sent to the gulag for making fun of a leader’s mustache in their private letters (see Solzhenitsyn) or havingcastor oil forced on them, thank goodness we’re not there yet.

[SapereAude]

To characterize the present day US as “massively” fascist and/or communist, with “Stalinist and Hitlerian institutions” reeks of hysteria and ignorance. The institutions you name existed in Bismarck’s Germany, which was socialist but by no means totalitarian, and exist in most European nations today. If you want to speak of the "Road to Serfdom", or the "Ominous Parallels", that’s fine, but until people are being sent to the gulag for making fun of a leader’s mustache in their private letters (see Solzhenitsyn) or havingcastor oil forced on them, thank goodness we’re not there yet.

I find your attitude towards the matter problematic.
Does a fascist state only become so when it starts imprisoning without trial and openly murdering its citizens?
Or does it become a fascist state when the government grants itself the "right" to imprison without trial and openly murder it citizens?
Because we've got #2

[Ninth Doctor]

Or does it become a fascist state when the government grants itself the "right" to imprison without trial and openly murder it citizens?
Because we've got #2

Rand pointed to censorship of ideas as a key tipping point (reference the Q&A of the Faith and Force lecture), and we certainly don’t have that, otherwise we’d see OO posters being rounded up. The war on terror has brought us a modern day lettre de cachet, but people aren’t being “disappeared” as they were in Argentina, Brazil, and Chile a few decades ago. It’s a power that’s more likely to be rescinded under a future administration than “massively” abused…nevertheless I don’t want to suggest that it’s not an alarming development.

[SapereAude]

Rand pointed to censorship of ideas as a key tipping point (reference the Q&A of the Faith and Force lecture), and we certainly don’t have that, otherwise we’d see OO posters being rounded up. The war on terror has brought us a modern day lettre de cachet, but people aren’t being “disappeared” as they were in Argentina, Brazil, and Chile a few decades ago. It’s a power that’s more likely to be rescinded under a future administration than “massively” abused…nevertheless I don’t want to suggest that it’s not an alarming development.

Censorship, like the other things you've mentioned, are happening slowly and will build.
The whole "bringing the frog to a boil slowly" thing.

Don't believe me?
Remember SOPA and PIPA?
Have you heard of ACTA?
Nary a peep was made when Obama signed it.
http://www.forbes.co...-you-meet-acta/

[dream_weaver]

I find your attitude towards the matter problematic.
Does a fascist state only become so when it starts imprisoning without trial and openly murdering its citizens?
Or does it become a fascist state when the government grants itself the "right" to imprison without trial and openly murder it citizens?
Because we've got #2

Wacko, Texas, and Randy Weaver come to mind.

[Ninth Doctor]

I tell you what, if the Supreme Court tosses out Obamacare, then Obama goes on TV and channels Andrew Jackson saying they’ve “made their decision, now let them enforce it”, I’ll start getting hysterical. If he then tries to cancel the next election, I’ll go over the edge. “Massively”.

[SapereAude]

I tell you what, if the Supreme Court tosses out Obamacare, then Obama goes on TV and channels Andrew Jackson saying they’ve “made their decision, now let them enforce it”, I’ll start getting hysterical. If he then tries to cancel the next election, I’ll go over the edge. “Massively”.

Instead of waiting til the frog is boiled and "getting hysterical" why not just take the path we're on very seriously now?

[Hairnet]

Fascism and Communism are unique ideologies and forms of government. Don't misuse these labels to attack conservatives and social democrats.

Fascism is the belief in the unity of a society/nation through the state (as descibed by Benito Mussolini). The fact is that almost all the tyrannies you mentioned are older than the nation-state itself, and go back to the tribal taboos of pre-civilized man.

Communism is the belief in the people owning the means of production, with or without democracy, with or without a nation state. All the tyrannies you mentioned were just wealth redistribution, which most actual communists see as a temporary fix for the problems of capitalism.

Calling social tyrannies "fascist" and economic one's "communist" just makes you look ignorant.

Yes our government is made up of people who don't believe in freedom, but that doesn't make them super villains from world war II.

Edited by Hairnet, 13 June 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[SapereAude]

Yes our government is made up of people who don't believe in freedom, but that doesn't make them super villains from world war II.

No. It makes them the villians of now. And that is bad enough.

[Hairnet]

No. It makes them the villians of now. And that is bad enough.

I was making a comment on the obsession that some of you people have with world war II and those violent conflicts of leftist ideologies. The villains of today won world war II by the way, and we actually moved far away from a lot of that stuff.

It is clear that calling our government fascist or communist, misplaced words, is completely sensationalist.

[SapereAude]

I was making a comment on the obsession that some of you people have with world war II and those violent conflicts of leftist ideologies.

Who would "you people" be?
The people who don't think that the president of the US has the right to order indefinite detention or execution of US citizens without trial?
The people who protest confiscation of personal property without recourse?
The people who protest monitoring of our every actions every day?
The people who are concerned about Agenda 21?
The people that are concerned that there is no longer a presumption of innnocence in our legal system?

Is that who "you people" are?

Edited by SapereAude, 14 June 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[Ninth Doctor]

Instead of waiting til the frog is boiled and "getting hysterical" why not just take the path we're on very seriously now?

What makes you think I don’t take “the path we’re on” seriously? That I reject the hysterical tone of the OP? Perhaps I criticize him because I take “the path we’re on” seriously.