Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Hi people...

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

(My apologies for posting before seeing this section... )

My introduction to the ideas and ideals of Ayn Rand were through reading Atlas Shrugged over 30 years ago.. I laughed, I cried, I stayed up all night unable to put it down... and every few years I pick it back up and read it again to keep alive the inspiration and motivation of her words.

It's best to let everyone here know up front that I'm a Christian but not a churchgoer, and more of a behaviorist than a dogmatist. And while I'm the farthest thing from an ideologically pure objectivist, I am an American Capitalist businessman who uses Atlas Shrugged as a Practical Business Operations Manual.

It's genuinely entertaining to read and to discuss ideas and how our views differ from each other. The personal interaction of forums is a pleasant alternative to the inert passivity of watching TV, which is why I'm visiting here typing on a keyboard instead of pressing buttons a remote control. I hope that you'll enjoy my input here as much as I'm enjoying sharing it with you.

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do you feel about the principle of separation of church and state?

If it's ok to broach this topic here, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

Even though the idea you referenced cannot be found anywhere in the Constitution... I'd still enjoy seeing the state separated from the political religion of liberal socialism, instead of being its pimp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With respect, you should think over whether still believing in mysticism and the supernatural is sensible while admiring ideas of rationality.

I do more than just passively admire the rationality of Ayn Rand's values. I actively use them in my business.

What would Ayn Rand say?

I see no conflict between religious moral values and the moral values advocated by Ayn Rand. While doctrines can vary wildly... standards of behavior can be strikingly similar. It is not what people believe that makes this world what it is... it is what people actually do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do more than just passively admire the rationality of Ayn Rand's values. I actively use them in my business.

I see no conflict between religious moral values and the moral values advocated by Ayn Rand. While doctrines can vary wildly... standards of behavior can be strikingly similar. It is not what people believe that makes this world what it is... it is what people actually do.

And yet what they do proceeds from what they believe. Take 9/11. Islamic extremists. The Spanish Inquisition, the Salem trials and executions. Christian extremists. This is not something that proceeds from rational ideas. This is what comes from irrational, supernatural based, mysticism ideas. You do know that Ayn Rand was opposed to Christianity, and the logic behind that, right? This is a site for Ayn Rand fans.

The question to be really asking is - if someday people are murdered because of the beliefs I indulge in, without rationality - am I right to believe in them?

There you go.

As for the moral values of Christianity - altruism, self-sacrifice, faith, charity, Jesus, god, religion etc etc - and the moral values of Objectivism and Ayn Rand - egoism, The Virtue of Selfishness, rational self-interest, Reason, productivity, Man, Man Worship, Hero Worship, atheism - Ayn Rand and Christianity are opposites. Have you read Atlas Shrugged? They are not, as you are saying, strikingly similar at all. With respect - have you actually studied Objectivism at all? You seem to be missing all the basic knowledge.

Edited by Darrell Cody
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is Objectivism Online, not "Anything Goes" Online.

As far as I can tell, this is a site for people to discuss Objectivism with those people naturally being predominantly, but not exclusively, Objectivists and students of Objectivism. Saying, "This is... not "Anything Goes" Online" seems to imply that it's wrong for anyone who isn't an Objectivist to post here. Edited by oso
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is Objectivism Online, not "Anything Goes" Online.

I agree, you should stop making these kinds of posts and focus on the subject of the forum, like our new buddy "moralist".

If it's ok to broach this topic here, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

Even though the idea you referenced cannot be found anywhere in the Constitution... I'd still enjoy seeing the state separated from the political religion of liberal socialism, instead of being its pimp.

The reason why I asked is because being a Christian precludes you from subscribing to Rand's Metaphysics and Epistemology, and makes it at least debatable whether you could find too much in common with her Ethics (in terms of fundamentals, I mean - there are some less fundamental values that are shared between Objectivism and Christianity).

That leaves Politics. However, since it seems that you don't believe that the state should be prevented from acting on religious values, and should be an impartial, rational protector of the right to live by any religious or non-religious values, that's out too. That would be a minimum requirement for a Christian to subscribe to Capitalism as Ayn Rand described it.

You could still be an ally to Objectivists in the fight against crushing statism (for lower taxes and fewer regulations), but not a partner in building a Laissez-faire Capitalist society. The reason for the many flaws in the current system (especially the flaws that began manifesting themselves before the socialist revolution) is precisely that it was formed by an alliance of rational thinkers and Christian morality peddlers. That's a mistake that should definitely be avoided whenever the opportunity presents itself next to try again. That's why I believe that the US is probably not the place where that opportunity will present itself. Way too many Christians. It's probably gonna be somewhere in Asia, maybe Australia.

P.S. The main issue with Christianity isn't the "be your brother's keeper" thing. That's terrible, but not the fundamental problem. The real problem is the Christian view of man as fundamentally sinful and evil. The driving force behind organized Christian religions is the belief that man must be controlled, his evil nature reigned in or else all Hell will break loose on Earth. That's what prompted the founders to give too much power to the government, not a wish to build a welfare state. The welfare state was just the unavoidable consequence of their distrust of human nature.

Edited by Nicky
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You do know that Ayn Rand was opposed to Christianity, and the logic behind that, right?

I certainly do... and share many of her objections to the leftist interpretation of Christianity.

This is a site for Ayn Rand fans.

I know... and I'm here because I'm also an avid Ayn Rand fan... but not merely as a passive impotent inert intellectual theoretical doctrinal believer. The distinctively ethical American Capitalist values Ayn Rand wrote about so beautifully inspired me utilize them to create my own business and to build my own home. I owe the life I enjoy today to her good advice.

Being a new guy showing up on a forum is bound to cause a little friction. I do hope that our shared admiration of Ayn Rand is greater than the differences in how we each live the values she loved.

Have you read Atlas Shrugged?

Yes. It is responsible for the life I enjoy today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is Objectivism Online, not "Anything Goes" Online.
Well, I assume Moralist came here not to discuss just anything, but specifically to discuss topics that Objectivists might be interested in, and for which he wishes to get feedback from Objectivists.

Let's assume that he opposes some fundamental ideas that every other member holds true. If so, and if he wishes to discuss these differences in a polite way, what can be wrong with that? Of course, nobody here wants him to proselytize and try converting people to Christianity, but I think you should give him the benefit of doubt as having the sense to tailor his remarks to his audience. Some members value discussion with opponents, others ignore them. As long as the forum is not swamped by that type of discussion alone, I think it should be welcome. If a member finds that it's a waste of time, they can ignore it. For others: if it doesn't kill you, it can only make you stronger.

Edited by softwareNerd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I assume Moralist came here not to discuss just anything, but specifically to discuss topics that Objectivists might be interested in, and for which he wishes to get feedback from Objectivists.

Let's assume that he opposes some fundamental ideas that every other member holds true. If so, and if he wishes to discuss these differences in a polite way, what can be wrong with that? Of course, nobody here wants him to proselytize and try converting people to Christianity,

God forbid. I'd never do that. Everyone freely chooses their own view and voluntarily takes it with them to their grave. And if it's any consolation, most Christians don't regard me as being a Christian because I fail their test for doctrinal purity due to my admiration of Ayn Rand and sharing her love of American Capitalism.

but I think you should give him the benefit of doubt as having the sense to tailor his remarks to his audience. Some members value discussion with opponents, others ignore them. As long as the forum is not swamped by that type of discussion alone, I think it should be welcome. If a member finds that it's a waste of time, they can ignore it. For others: if it doesn't kill you, it can only make you stronger.

I just wanted to be up front with you all right from the beginning about myself. You're very likely never to see the use of the "C" word outside of this thread... not out of repression, but because I'm much more of a pragmatic behaviorist than a religious doctrinaire.

Edited by moralist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

God forbid. I'd never do that. Everyone freely chooses their own view and voluntarily takes it with them to their grave. And if it's any consolation, most Christians don't regard me as being a Christian because I fail their test for doctrinal purity due to my admiration of Ayn Rand and sharing her love of American Capitalism.

I just wanted to be up front with you all right from the beginning about myself. You're very likely never to see the use of the "C" word outside of this thread... not out of repression, but because I'm much more of a pragmatic behaviorist than a religious doctrinaire.

While I understand the comments everyone is making here, I do not agree with the general tone of all of them; I would like to take this moment to remind everyone of the particular danger of being "the man in the middle" Ayn Rand refers to in Atlas Shrugged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to the forum, I think you'll enjoy the discussions here.

What type of business do you have and how do you incorporate Objectivism in your business decisions or practices?

I'm an electrician, and deal intimately with something which is absolutely utterly and impersonally objective. Electricity does not care about my intellectual thoughts or my emotional feelings about it. It just is what it is and does what it does, and I can stake my life on the fact that it behaves exactly the same way 100% of the time. Because it is absolutely real it demands complete attention to reality, and has the ability to harm or even kill at the slightest indulging in fantasies. Over the years, I've grown to love this quality of absoluteness and take great delight in it. This absoluteness also exists in other areas of life.

The beauty of a principle is that it can be applied to many different situations, and I've found that it has been far more valuable for me to understand the reality of principle by direct personal experience, than it is to intellectually study to accumulate and remember facts.

I need to tell you up front that I'm not as familiar with how the word Objectivism is used in this forum as I am with my own experience with reading Atlas Shrugged. This is because I'm not highly educated nor do I engage in intellectual study. This makes me more of a doer than a thinker, so I apologize in advance for my shallowness. I've been reading many of the topics discussed here and they honestly go right over my head... way over. Nevertheless I consider visiting here a vastly more enjoyable interactive alternative to the inane passivity of watching television.

Ayn Rand's expression of her love of American Capitalism literally moves me to strive to live up to the ethical ideals displayed by her protagonists. I found that making a prime directive of cultivating those qualities she described in my business has assured a bountiful harvest of rewards. Qualities like saying what I mean and doing what I say, and upholding the trust of others who are worthy of my trust. Qualities like these are the Holy Grail of Capitalism. They are the invisible glue that holds Capitalism together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I need to tell you up front that I'm not as familiar with how the word Objectivism is used in this forum as I am with my own experience with reading Atlas Shrugged. This is because I'm not highly educated nor do I engage in intellectual study. This makes me more of a doer than a thinker, so I apologize in advance for my shallowness. I've been reading many of the topics discussed here and they honestly go right over my head... way over. Nevertheless I consider visiting here a vastly more enjoyable interactive alternative to the inane passivity of watching television.

Just to single this out, you never need to apologize. Specialization in what makes you happy is essential for an individual to live and thrive, and on a societal level specialization is essential for prosperity in economic terms. I understand feeling outgunned (I came from a business/economic perspective too) and that is fine. We all feel outgunned when we are out of our element and I’ll be honest – Epistemology, for me, has been a real work to slowly take in over the years.

As for brain food, I understand. It’s to the point I can’t stand much of TV anymore since it serves the intellectual equivalent of fast food. That is what keeps me reading in general and participating on forums.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to single this out, you never need to apologize. Specialization in what makes you happy is essential for an individual to live and thrive, and on a societal level specialization is essential for prosperity in economic terms. I understand feeling outgunned (I came from a business/economic perspective too) and that is fine. We all feel outgunned when we are out of our element and I’ll be honest – Epistemology, for me, has been a real work to slowly take in over the years.

I had to look up epistemology to see what it meant, so you know where I'm at. ; )

As for brain food, I understand. It’s to the point I can’t stand much of TV anymore since it serves the intellectual equivalent of fast food. That is what keeps me reading in general and participating on forums.

We haven't had a network connected television for over a decade and don't miss it a bit. Who needs the media to define your world when you can experience it first hand for yourself?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm an electrician, and deal intimately with something which is absolutely utterly and impersonally objective. Electricity does not care about my intellectual thoughts or my emotional feelings about it. It just is what it is and does what it does, and I can stake my life on the fact that it behaves exactly the same way 100% of the time. Because it is absolutely real it demands complete attention to reality, and has the ability to harm or even kill at the slightest indulging in fantasies. Over the years, I've grown to love this quality of absoluteness and take great delight in it. This absoluteness also exists in other areas of life.

The beauty of a principle is that it can be applied to many different situations, and I've found that it has been far more valuable for me to understand the reality of principle by direct personal experience, than it is to intellectually study to accumulate and remember facts.

I need to tell you up front that I'm not as familiar with how the word Objectivism is used in this forum as I am with my own experience with reading Atlas Shrugged. This is because I'm not highly educated nor do I engage in intellectual study. This makes me more of a doer than a thinker, so I apologize in advance for my shallowness. I've been reading many of the topics discussed here and they honestly go right over my head... way over. Nevertheless I consider visiting here a vastly more enjoyable interactive alternative to the inane passivity of watching television.

Ayn Rand's expression of her love of American Capitalism literally moves me to strive to live up to the ethical ideals displayed by her protagonists. I found that making a prime directive of cultivating those qualities she described in my business has assured a bountiful harvest of rewards. Qualities like saying what I mean and doing what I say, and upholding the trust of others who are worthy of my trust. Qualities like these are the Holy Grail of Capitalism. They are the invisible glue that holds Capitalism together.

moralist,

What you've said here really resonates with me. As a Welder/Fabricator I too have been intimately involved with electricity on a heavy industrial basis for the past 37 years and have come to regard it much as you do. Gravity (and other physical forces that leave stored energy in objects) is another thing that needs to be thought of in much the same way.

As to any possible religious beliefs (or lack there of) I may hold I guess you could say I've been a member in good standing of the First Church of the Holy Arc (Reformed Electrical) for quite some time now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I need to tell you up front that I'm not as familiar with how the word Objectivism is used in this forum as I am with my own experience with reading Atlas Shrugged. This is because I'm not highly educated nor do I engage in intellectual study. This makes me more of a doer than a thinker, so I apologize in advance for my shallowness. I've been reading many of the topics discussed here and they honestly go right over my head... way over. Nevertheless I consider visiting here a vastly more enjoyable interactive alternative to the inane passivity of watching television.

Ayn Rand's expression of her love of American Capitalism literally moves me to strive to live up to the ethical ideals displayed by her protagonists. I found that making a prime directive of cultivating those qualities she described in my business has assured a bountiful harvest of rewards. Qualities like saying what I mean and doing what I say, and upholding the trust of others who are worthy of my trust. Qualities like these are the Holy Grail of Capitalism. They are the invisible glue that holds Capitalism together.

If you do want to understand the philosophy better (which I assume you do), you should start at the basics. This might be worth while to take a look at as it outlines Objectivism in a way that is easy to understand. http://www.atlassociety.org/sites/default/files/LSO%20Binder.pdf

Engaging in conversation and following topics will also help you better develop your ideas.

-MG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome, moralist.

My father is an electrical engineer. I remember a few occasions where people were frightened about his behavior near electrical equipment, and he was surprised because he knew that his behavior was completely safe. Is that pretty common in your profession?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...