23 replies to this topic

[EC]

There is a group called the Free State Project, www.freestateproject.org (sorry I don't know how to make this link work). I used to be a member of FSP until I realized that I could not associate with or appear to sanction Liberterians, Anarchists, and other Nihilists.

FSP's goal is to move 20,000 Liberty loving activists to a small state that is already pro-liberty to reach out to the native population in an effort to influence voting trends towards greater Liberty. The state they have chosen through an online vote after having reached 5,000 members is New Hampshire.

How this plan could have success was well researched and the data is available on FSP's website. When I first encountered FSP and researched it I thought it was brilliant idea. But, as I stated above, the "big tent" mentality that the Project has taken on has destroyed its value to me in practice.

The idea or concept behind the Project is what intrigues me still. Out of courtesy, that brilliant original idea belongs to Jason Sorens, FSP's founder.

What I would like to do is start a similar project consisting solely of Objectivists. I would like to create a real life Atlantis.

So far we Men (and Women) of the Mind are spread all over this Great Nation. Imagine the possibilities if we could form a large communtity consisting exclusively of Objectivists.

There is not enough of us where we could ever really Shrug and "go on strike". But that idea is just a work of fiction (albeit great fiction) anyway. But in reality (which is all that matters) there is enough of us already to form the basis of a new society. It would be the greatest society Man has ever seen. Why can't we do this?

My dream is not utopian, at least not in the standard sense. Read FSP's website. Think about how we could apply their idea's properly. If this is something other Objectivists would be interested in, then this is something that could be initiated and done relatively quickly.

FSP's motto is Liberty in Our Lifetime. And this is what I want to achieve. We can accomplish this goal much more effiecently than a group of Nihilists ever could.

Why should we spend our lives spread out, never being able to fully live as true Objectivists?

Why should we continue to wait until "mainstream" America fully "accepts" our Philosophy and realizes that it has always been America's "true" Philosopy anyway?

Objectivism teaches us how to live in this world as it is now. If how this world is now is not up to our highest of standards, why then can't we remake it in "our" image, starting in a small locale now?

We already know our ideas are right. And We know how to prove it. So,let's show the world our ideas implemented to the best of our abilities immediatly. Let's quit waiting for the rest of the country and the world to catch up. Let's show them why we are the Atlas's of this world.

Let's start our own version of the FSP and use this excellent forum that was created by GreedyCapitalist (whom I greatly admire) as an example to ourselves, on how it should be done.

Let's create Atlantis.

Because nothing could ever honor Ayn Rand's greatest of all acievements, Objectivism, more than its complete implementation.

Thanks for reading, and I await your comments, pro or con.

Eric Clayton

[ZiggyKD]

Why should we spend our lives spread out, never being able to fully live as true Objectivists?

I think your idea is very interesting, but from what I gather from this quote, you seem to think that living in a rational society is a requirement for "fully living as true Objectivists." One can follow the philosophy and practice it consistently without living in such a society, as best expemplified by Ayn Rand's life in the US. This does not mean that we shouldn't work to change things here, or in other words, that we shouldn't defend and promote our values (the value-seeking individuals that we are), but only that that kind of society is not a requirement for living a purpose-driven, virtuous life.

Of course, through living virtuously, one would want to create that kind of wonderful society, but that society is not the pre-requisite for being an o'ist -- a thinking mind is.

Please correct me if I am misinterpretting your argument.

[EC]

I think your idea is very interesting, but from what I gather from this quote, you seem to think that living in a rational society is a requirement for "fully living as true Objectivists."  One can follow the philosophy and practice it consistently without living in such a society, as best expemplified by Ayn Rand's life in the US.  This does not mean that we shouldn't work to change things here, or in other words, that we shouldn't defend and promote our values (the value-seeking individuals that we are), but only that that kind of society is not a requirement for living a purpose-driven, virtuous life.

Of course, through living virtuously, one would want to create that kind of wonderful society, but that society is not the pre-requisite for being an o'ist -- a thinking mind is.

Please correct me if I am misinterpretting your argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose I mispoke a little there: living in a rational society is not a requirement for being a "true" Objectivist. But as an Objectivist it should be one of our ultimate goals to create such a society. It is one I want to live in in my lifetime.

[plaintext]

Rational One: Are there any objectivist groups in your city? Are you a member?

[EC]

Rational One: Are there any objectivist groups in your city? Are you a member?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not that I can find. And no by default to the second question.

[EC]

I don't understand, out of every one that has read my original post so far, well over a hundred, nobody has any input positive or negative? Except one person saying it's an interesting idea? What's up with that?

[Tom Rexton]

I don't understand, out of every one that has read my original post so far, well over a hundred, nobody has any input positive or negative?  Except one person saying it's an interesting idea? What's up with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's common to nearly all topics. They almost always have a disproportinate amount of views to replies.

[plaintext]

I don't understand, out of every one that has read my original post so far, well over a hundred, nobody has any input positive or negative?  Except one person saying it's an interesting idea? What's up with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first time I saw an idea like the "Free State" one, I was intrigued and read more about it. Over time, however, I have come to the conclusion that these plans are of two types: either they are unrealistic, or they are money-gathering scams. (BTW: There are also non-objectivists with the same idea -- e.g., go live separately on a commune.)

If you live in the USA (or even many other countries) the "real world" offers many advantages and amenities that make one's life comfortable and buys one time.

One misses talking to rational folks. That is why I asked about any nearby Objectivist groups. If you would be willing to post your city (or even your State) in a thread on the "Introductions" forum, and invite nearby folks to meet, you might be pleasantly surprized at the number of objectivists who live near you.

Practically, its a good idea to socialize (in person) with a good cross-section of objectivists before you decide you want to go set up a country with them.

[Charles]

How about targetting blue cities like Seattle with a focus on economic freedom and its benefits and red counties with social freedom with a focus on freewill and responsibility to self.

I think that breaking the predictability of voting patterns/stimulating diversity of thought would force a change in the party politics, swaying the status quo in our direction.

[EC]

I am not trying to create another country. But I do thing there would be immense advantages to having many Objectivists centered in a community. And by community I am thinking a small state not a commune. I am NOT a collectivist. The goal would be to work within that states framework to promote our ideals instead of what we are doing now, which will take much more time. Not that something that take a lot of time to create is bad, but if our goal is to live in a rational society in "our" lifetime and not for our descendents in some indefinite future we should take steps to produce it now if the steps are not unrealistic. This would be in everyone's self-interest.

As to the question of where I live it is in Michigan near Detroit. And I would like to meet like minded people in my area if possible.

And as for wanting to create a community of Objectivists without ever having met any in "real life": I assumed based on everything I've ever read here and in the Objectivist literature most are similar thinking people. Maybe I've learned many of them are very "nit-picky" about things. But I suppose I am also to other people when I think back it's just harder to see it in yourselves and so sometimes I get defensive. But it is what it is.

[dianahsieh]

I'm not much of a fan of the Free State Project for various reasons, but I do know that life can be a bit lonely without in-town Objectivist friends or a healthy Objectivist community. When I was an undergrad, I knew of no other Objectivists at WashU. (Technically, my then-friend and now-husband, Paul Hsieh, was faculty at WashU's medical school, but he was more of a sympathizer than an Objectivist at the time.) In other cities in which I've lived, the local Objectivist community often consisted of a barely-limping-along discussion group that no one really enjoyed.

It takes a lot of hard work -- not to mention careful judgment and commitment to Objectivist principles -- to create a thriving Objectivist community, particularly a community of friends. But it is possible -- as Front Range Objectivism proves.

Over the years, Lin Zinser has worked very hard to create and maintain a high-quality discussion group, FROG (Front Range Objectivist Group). In 15 some-odd years, FROG has skipped just one of its monthly meetings. Then last year, Lin started FROST (Front Range Objectivist Supper Talks) to bring in Objectivist speakers about six times per year for dinner and a delicious meal. Shortly thereafter, we started up FROLIC (Front Range Objectivist Laughter Ideas and Chow) for social get-togethers, such as our monthly Sunday Dinner and various meals when a FROST speaker comes to town. Lin also recently started a second FROG discussion group, because our first was too full with its 20 active members. I expect that we'll need to open a third discussion group in a year or two.

As far as I know, no other Objectivist community in the world is as active as Front Range Objectivism. We're also very serious Objectivists, in that (1) our core group consists of very knowledgable, longstanding Objectivists and (2) newer people tend to become increasingly interested in deeply understanding and applying Objectivism. (That certainly happened to me. In fact, the culture of FROG was instrumental to my disassociation from TOC.)

None of that is meant to demean the accomplishments of other Objectivist groups. But I am tremendously proud of and excited by Front Range Objectivism. Its success shows all that is possible in a good-sized city -- without any crazy Free-State-Project-ish schemes. Nonetheless, I expect that Objectivists will more strongly consider Denver as a place to move in light of its thriving and friendly community of Objectivists in the upcoming years. The fact that the area is such a fabulous place to live for so many other reasons certainly won't hurt us!

Diana Hsieh (NoodleFood)

[EC]

Dianah

Thanks for your insight, but I came across your Galaxy Far, Far Away article and it seems you always didn't think FSP type ideas were always so "crazy".

Eric

[dianahsieh]

Thanks for your insight, but I came across your Galaxy Far, Far Away article and it seems you always didn't think FSP type ideas were always so "crazy".

First of all, I have no idea to what article you are referring. I searched my web site for anything on the Free State Project or "Galaxy Far, Far Away" (that's a blog, but not mine), but found absolutely nothing. So perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

Second, it would surprise me if I had even written positively about FSP, since I've never been particularly interested in or enamoured of the idea. Even when I considered myself a libertarian, the thought of living amongst libertarians was less than appealing. And I've long held that the most major violations of our rights (esp income taxes) are federal matters.

Third, even if I had ever written positively on the FSP or the like in times past, I've changed my mind about a lot over the past two years, including libertarianism -- as the disclaimer on my web site indicates.

Fourth, my name is Diana or Diana Hsieh, not Dianah.

I hope that was clarifying, if perhaps more detailed than necessary.

Diana Hsieh

[EC]

I'm sorry I followed the links back and on the page where you renounced TOC there was a link to that blog. It was a guy and not you who wrote it.

I'm sorry for mispelling your name

And to be clear I would like to help create a society of Objectivists not Libertarians. I don't understand why any Objectivist would be negative to that idea.

[Elle]

...And to be clear I would like to help create a society of Objectivists not Libertarians. I don't understand why any Objectivist would be negative to that idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not negative to the idea, but I don't think it is desirable and I will explain why.

Take into consideration the full context of Atlantis in Atlas Shrugged. A small number of extremely competent, intelligent and rational producers are able to live in an isolated area of the world and be protected by John Galt's invention which vales the valley from planes flying overhead. Instead of buying products sold in a global economy, they produce everything that they use and they are good at it and proud of it. They suffer no interference from other men (government, unchosen society, etc.) but also can not derive the benefits of trading with men outside of Atlantis. They key to this is to remember that it is not in their self-interest to trade with the men outside of Atlantis because the world has fallen to such a state that the producers are on strike against the philosophy of the unearned - altruism. Without this condition, without having the prime movers living and producing in Atlantis, without the ingenuity of John Galt's invention - Atlantis, in the world of Atlas Shrugged, does not need to exist. In addition, without altruism as the pervasive and dominant philsophy of the culture there is no nessecity for these great producers to go into hiding.

To draw a parallel to this in reality, the producers are not on strike yet in American and on Earth. Objectivists still have a great deal that is in their self-interest when it comes to dealing with "the rest of the world" (that would be on the outside of this hypothetical Atlantis). Altruism has not taken root in every mind. The minds that would end its proliferation and allow the men of the mind to keep all they have accomplished, instead of being relegated to building it anew, are fighting adamantly to spread the philosophy of Objectivism.

As Ayn Rand said: "Those who fight for the future, live in it today."

Look around you. I learned about Objectivism less than a year ago and in that short time I have met some of the most amazing advocates of the mind. Most of the time I am completely focused on my goals and occaisonally I look up long enough to be lonely or maybe a bit frustrated with the people I deal with. The most comforting thing is to have met amazing minds and to know that someone, somewhere, right now is thinking about how to make their business more profitable, make their marriage more successful, making their life more meaningful - using the principles of Objectivism. Coming to this site, or reading TIA, or HBL, or the Cybernet, or seeing Yaron Brook on television also inspire and brace me.

Objectivism is winning because it is right. Right in theory and right in practice. Knowing this makes wanting an Atlantis impossible for me. I want this world, with all it's achievements. I want the Greeks, the Renaissance, the Englightenment, America, the Industrial Revoltion, the Space Age and beyond into the future I am fighting for today. To give those achievements up and decide to start over would be the hardest decision I can imagine and I don't think the world is in the state where that decision is nessecary.

I reccomend you find some Objectivists in the Detroit area to meet in person (and in addition stongly reccomend those of the ARI-suppoting variety if you can find them). You can check at the ARI website for listings of campus groups in your area, that's usually a good place to start.

Warm Regards,
-Elle

[plaintext]

As to the question of where I live it is in Michigan near Detroit. And I would like to meet like minded people in my area if possible.

And as for wanting to create a community of Objectivists without ever having met any in "real life":....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The ARI site has a link to the U of M Objectivist group.

Also, (found by web search... this is not a positive referral): There is also a group called The EGO Group that meets in "South East Michigan". If I'm right, that's probably around Detroit, or at least driving distance.

There must also be many Michigan folk on this forum and the chances are that many will be near a large city like Detroit. The member's directory has locations. I checked -- there is no way to search by location. Yet, if you're serious, you can start checking a certain number of entries each day.

Good luck in meeting like-minded Objectivists.

[EC]

Elle

Thanks for your reply, I was making a decent legnth reply to it when my computer went spastic and I lost it. So instead of trying to redo it I'll try and state the main point.

I also want and love the things you described in your post. I don't want a fictional Atlantis. We don't need to (and shouldn't) go in to "hiding", like in the book. I think you misunderstand my goal. I think it would be great to have many Objectivists in a relatively small area, not to "hide" or "start over" but to show the world what we can do, what is possible. We would deal with rational people much more often and we could create the rational society we want much more effiently. We would still be Americans. We would still live in this country that is great but is being greatly corrupted. It is just much easier to show the world why it should change by creating a working example, a prototype, then by any other means.

Yes, we would still have to follow all the nations laws, and we should. But a smaller group has relatively more political power to change unjust laws when they are contained a small geographical area as opposed to spread over a huge nation.

[plaintext]

Rational One... I suggest you go to the Search option in the forum and look for "Michigan" and "Detroit". Doing so, I found the following memebrs who appear to be in Michigan: andrew, bowzer, bardjmal, moral_free, eetest01, nimble, drsm, pcm.

That's 8 just here. Add EGO and the UofM club and you've got the makings on a little state already!

All the best.

[EC]

Thanks for the suggestions plaintext. I'll check them out but U of M a bit of a drive that's why I never really checked that group out.

Eric

[wishbone]

U of M

You really should move to Ann Arbor. That way, you achieve a short-term goal of associating with other Objectivists. You can continue your longer-term plans.

Ann Arbor is a little expensive, but not exorbitant. Also, one can stay in some outlying communities that are very affordable (by SE MI standards). There are a good number of jobs around AA, and one can always commute down I94 to Ford. Schools are safe (if you have kids). The politics are very left-wing, but this does not have to be your final place.

[Onivlas]

After viewing the topic, I'd like to add my positive.

I wouldn't be interested in running from the world. Nor would I desire any sort of commune. But I would very much like to live around like minded people, for very many reasons:

Trusting your neighbors. You know that you live in a generally positive neighborhood with other objectivists. If not only for personal pleasure, it would be a wonderful environment for children. I think of those that were compared to kittens, the children in Atlantis. Sure, it may not be as pure and positive, but I would like to give myself and any children of mine the best posible place to live.

Influencing local laws. Where I live, there are many non-objective local laws. If a group of objectivists, even a small group of active ones, were to live in a community, it could affect the legal system. We would have the intellectual backing to fight for our rights.

Friendships. I'm thinking more of a "Mayberry" than an Atlantis. (This gets personal for me) I would think there to be less drunkeness, and the violence that accompanies it. Less morbid obesity, less welfare moochers, less toothless drug fiends, less people that make you cringe at the mere fact that they are able to breath, after spewing vile nonsense.

There are more, I'm sure. I don't think it would be wise for me to post all of my reasons for limitations of time and conciseness. This shows my general attitude.

I don't want to run away. I don't want to fit in, though that's close. I want to be around positive, moral people.

[EC]

After viewing the topic, I'd like to add my positive.

I wouldn't be interested in running from the world. Nor would I desire any sort of commune. But I would very much like to live around like minded people, for very many reasons:

Trusting your neighbors. You know that you live in a generally positive neighborhood with other objectivists. If not only for personal pleasure, it would be a wonderful environment for children. I think of those that were compared to kittens, the children in Atlantis. Sure, it may not be as pure and positive, but I would like to give myself and any children of mine the best posible place to live.

Influencing local laws. Where I live, there are many non-objective local laws. If a group of objectivists, even a small group of active ones, were to live in a community, it could affect the legal system. We would have the intellectual backing to fight for our rights.

Friendships. I'm thinking more of a "Mayberry" than an Atlantis. (This gets personal for me) I would think there to be less drunkeness, and the violence that accompanies it. Less morbid obesity, less welfare moochers, less toothless drug fiends, less people that make you cringe at the mere fact that they are able to breath, after spewing vile nonsense.

There are more, I'm sure. I don't think it would be wise for me to post all of my reasons for limitations of time and conciseness. This shows my general attitude.

I don't want to run away. I don't want to fit in, though that's close. I want to be around positive, moral people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is exactly what I want to do. I think many people took what I meant the wrong way because I used overly flowery language. I want a communtity of Objectivists that are fully integrated into this world not some sort of commune or something like the real Atlantis. I want to live around other rational people because the possibilities are immense. We could work for change much more effiently. And we would show the world are ideas in action, even if only on a limited scale at first.

I am putting this plan into action, Anyone that is interested, PM me.

I'm going to create the world I want to live in since it does not exist yet.

[non-contradictor]

PM means personal message. There is a small button that says PM under everyone's name and avatar.

[Hugh Akston]

Something funny happened to me the other day. I recently relocated my business to another town. Apparently if you live or operate on that town to most people it seems like you are doing quite well for your self. I was unaware of this however until several people commented on it. The last one to comment on it was a customer that lives down the street. She said that once people move in that town, they never leave. The she asked how I happened to move in. I responded that I saw the sign that it was available and got the place simply because I needed a place to operate and with no other purpose. She said she was one of the newest in town. Funny enough she proceeded to state that she had lived there for 35 years. It is a small town compared to its surrounding neighbors but the people that live there have an air leading more toward the aristocracy of pull. Somehow as if they are better than everyone else just by the fact that they live there. I hope I have the wrong impression. Also I found out that many pesty sales men and women live there. I listen to them not because I want to buy from them but because I want to get to know the people living in town. I had one of them already make an indecent proposal about giving me access to a customer list of a recently beheaded corporation for fraud. Ofcourse he also insinuated I would have to get an account for credit card service from him and hire his son to work for me. I could smell the desperation in this poor shmuck's voice from a mile away.

To address your question it would be possible to live in a place that resembles the atlantis, with the right people. They would have to prove themselves many times over ofcourse.

Edited by Hugh Akston, 10 February 2005 - 08:47 PM.