aleph_1 Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Ok, well interesting tangent on the topic I brought up. I was referring to modern day Buddhism as one who lives in the west and is not a monk. Here in the west a person can be a Buddhist while holding down a job and have a family at the same time. There are some parts that are left behind due to the way we are brought up but some of the tenets we can alter to our lives because we live in the west and hold jobs and have families. More importantly, to which tenets of Buddhism do you refer to in the OP? By the way, most buddhists in countries today where Buddhist monks still beg also hold down jobs. Monks in the west also usually hold down jobs and I am personally acquainted with a monk who does. What idea or practice do you question as possibly in conflict with Oism? You mention helping people with pain. I know of no group that has a monopoly on counseling. Could you be more specific? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Danneskjold Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) They've played a prominent role in developing the various SE Asian writing systems for instance. Yes, and most of Aristotle's surviving works were preserved and duplicated by Muslim scholars; that doesn't mean that their overall influence on the world has been a good one. Edit: The point you were making is valid (although I don't see where A1 said the opposite) but some of your statements could be construed as advocating such lifestyles, as such, and that seems like a point worth making explicit. Edited February 21, 2015 by Harrison Danneskjold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Danneskjold Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 As I have been looking into Objectivism through Ayn Rands work and the ARI which has great online classes I am seeing that the western Ideal of Buddhism can be altered so that the two can fit together but I am still working on this and seeing where each one covers and doesn't cover. How? See, I don't personally believe that the two can ultimately be reconciled, so I'd like to know in more detail what you mean by that. How can they be made to fit each other and what does the result look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Wow, some digression here!! Here in the west a person can be a Buddhist while holding down a job and have a family at the same time. There are some parts that are left behind due to the way we are brought up but some of the tenets we can alter to our lives because we live in the west and hold jobs and have families. That's why nobody can answer your original question to your satisfaction unless they know what you mean by Buddhism. Anyhow, that's not why I'm posting. I just wanted to suggest you check out the Hindu Bhagvad Gita some time, if you have not done so already. (Link of one of many free versions.) The Gita is the Hindu attempt to incorporate Buddhist ideas into Hinduism. The author thinks renunciation and mental devotion are the path to "God" and to its version of heaven -- which is a merging with the oneness of the eternal. This it promotes over rituals, which are stressed by the (older) Vedas. Since renunciation is not always possible, the second path is to do one's duty, but to do it because it is one's duty, not because of some reward. [Was this where Kant got this message? ] I would not recommend the book to most just anyone, but if you're interested in Buddhism, you might find something in it...or perhaps find that the whole thing is built on assertion without any argument. Either way, you gain. Edited February 21, 2015 by softwareNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 ..just like good Catholics of their priests.Priests aren't beggars either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anuj Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Nicky's and Eiuol's post in some way validated Buddhist monks as they gathered and spread knowledge. The monks perhaps could have been historically relevant in some sense. But do we still require them in this century? A broader question would be: Is there any reason, any religion should still exist ? Repairman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrison Danneskjold Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Is there any reason, any religion should still exist ?Well, when you put it that way! Edited February 21, 2015 by Harrison Danneskjold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil's Advocate Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 ... But do we still require them in this century? A broader question would be: Is there any reason, any religion should still exist ? I'm reading your question essentially as, Religion: Who Needs It? The broad answer is, those who continue to practice it. The current numbers suggest it will remain with us for a while longer. If you consider the historical alternatives to religion, up to and including the development of Objectivism, I think you'd have to conclude that there remains some need, as yet unaddressed, to fill the vacuum created by removing religion from the human equation. I think the more pressing issue to address today is how to best delimit religion to a non-political sphere, i.e., to enforce the separation of church and state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Nicky's and Eiuol's post in some way validated Buddhist monks as they gathered and spread knowledge. The monks perhaps could have been historically relevant in some sense. But do we still require them in this century? A broader question would be: Is there any reason, any religion should still exist ? Depends on your definition of religion. In Japan, for instance, the dominant religion (Shinto) has for the most part been reduced to atheists (most Japanese are atheists) attending various fun festivals, ceremonies and shrines to think about the spiritual side of life, be close to nature, or just keep traditions alive. If religious traditions are converted to serve a purpose other than to spread irrational beliefs, then they are harmless (and can even be useful, as they are in Japan - if nothing else, at least they generate a lot of tourist revenue). I think that if the Vatican and all the other churches could be turned into a tourist attraction, with an atheist Pope and priests wearing their funny hats, performing all the usual ceremonies, it would be a nice thing to attend from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anuj Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) I'm reading your question essentially as, Religion: Who Needs It? The broad answer is, those who continue to practice it. The current numbers suggest it will remain with us for a while longer. If you consider the historical alternatives to religion, up to and including the development of Objectivism, I think you'd have to conclude that there remains some need, as yet unaddressed, to fill the vacuum created by removing religion from the human equation. DA, Yes as a choice, religion shall exist as long freedom of choice exists. But could you elaborate on what were the alternatives to religion. And does the alternative still validate the need for religion ? Perhaps you can choose to answer here. Depends on your definition of religion. In Japan, for instance, the dominant religion (Shinto) has for the most part been reduced to atheists (most Japanese are atheists) attending various fun festivals, ceremonies and shrines to think about the spiritual side of life, be close to nature, or just keep traditions alive. If religious traditions are converted to serve a purpose other than to spread irrational beliefs, then they are harmless (and can even be useful, as they are in Japan - if nothing else, at least they generate a lot of tourist revenue). I think that if the Vatican and all the other churches could be turned into a tourist attraction, with an atheist Pope and priests wearing their funny hats, performing all the usual ceremonies, it would be a nice thing to attend from time to time. I agree with both the points. As a kid I remember appreciating religion at-least as it mostly brought people together socially, though I have grown to be lesser of a social type. I do like some of the temples (in India) especially in the hill stations for their calm and quietness. Edited February 22, 2015 by Anuj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil's Advocate Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 DA, Yes as a choice, religion shall exist as long freedom of choice exists. But could you elaborate on what were the alternatives to religion. And does the alternative still validate the need for religion ? Perhaps you can choose to answer here. ... The practice of Religion will continue as long as freedom of expression is allowed. Here's a link to alternatives to religion: http://www.pluralism.org/resources/tradition/atheism.php There are probably a good deal more including various examples provided by communist states. The net result is that where religion is publicly suppressed it reemerges in secret attic spaces. In terms of validation, there's plenty evidence that children of atheists rebel against their parents' (non)beliefs too, so again I have to conclude, and I think any reasonable person would, that there remains a spiritual niche in the human equation that religion responds to. You raise a good question though, and I'm glad to see dream_weaver picked up on it. No doubt I'll have something to contribute there later on, but I want to see his thread develop a bit first. I must also mention that I agree with Nicky's observations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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