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schase7585

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  1. Of course not, but you said *never* just a couple. There are frequently just a few. If you can think of another course of action to take, I'd very much appreciate knowing it. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrequited_love In the 'Advantages' section, notice it says, "Unrequited love has long been depicted as noble, an unselfish and stoic willingness to accept suffering." That is the opposite of my values. If you cannot relate, you've probably just never been in a situation of unrequited romantic feelings, but watching any movie with it involved will give you a basic idea of it being an awful feeling. I can say from experience it gets multiplied when you're utterly devoted to someone and they are not devoted the same way back to you. The consequence had to be there because our friendship wasn't worth the awfulness that I had been feeling for a year. You keep suggesting that I just stop feeling bad or jealous, but doing so would require a reevaluation of my principles to many that I consider hideous. I would need to devalue sex. I would need to believe that emotional closeness and compatibility shouldn't be primary factors in romantic attraction. Feelings are automated processes, and the only way to change them is to change your values/premises. I don't believe my pain was generated by improper premises in this case. Besides, I think saying "stop feeling bad about her having a relationship and just be happy for her" invalidates your own premise that I'm ruining her own happiness. You're telling me to sacrifice my happiness to keep her happy (though wording it differently), but you could just as easily say the same thing to her; that is, you could tell her to stop dating the girl because it makes me unhappy, and that it would be cruel and unfair of her to stop talking to me because I was interfering. It is perfectly within my right to stop speaking to whomever I want, just as it is perfectly within her right to stop speaking to me and date whomever she wants. We chose what we did, we did not force or trick each other. She knew why she wanted to be my friend more than a meaningless relationship with a girl, I knew why I couldn't put up with that other meaningless relationship, and we both made a rational decision. I don't believe I would tell her that she doesn't have the right to stop talking to me whenever she wants, or that she doesn't have the right to stop speaking to me because I'm causing her emotional pain. I would call her a dick for lying to me or not wanting to talk or think about it at all, but if she had good reasons for it and wasn't acting on impulses then I wouldn't be mad at her for it. This one relates to unrequited love again. The friendship wasn't worth the grief that her relationships caused me. It still isn't. It's not the friendship that I'd be deprived of, it's something much greater than that- it's the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship, the reason you wouldn't settle for a buddy when you could have a wife. It's something I would never have with someone I would desperately like it with. I don't know why that emotionally evaluates to more pain than happiness, but it does- perhaps because the knowledge of her mistake and my utter lack of doing anything about it would permeate our entire friendship? I'm just speculating on that one... That implies that not talking to her anymore is the same as admitting she has no value to me. That's not true, there are many reasons to not want to talk to someone, and in this case it's because of the pain of unrequited romance is greater than the satisfaction of a friendship. The fact of the matter is, I have a lot of friends. Of course, she is my best friend, better than all the others I've ever had, but a friend nonetheless. Putting myself in a position of friendship with her would condemn myself to romantic dissatisfaction for as long as I was with her. I do not think that I should 'settle' for friendship my whole life, a relationship with someone I care about the proper amount would be preferable, and I know I couldn't do that by just being friends with her. That's sound advice. But, I guess it goes with the only way I can remember math is if I know why a formula works. I don't accept blind premises. I need a reason why she could never be with me. Being a lesbian is the obvious choice to claim as the reason, but neither Sara nor I believe it's ingrained in DNA, but rather a learned, psychological state, with genetic predispositions, much like black people don't have to like rap music, it's not in their DNA or genetic, but rather a matter of cultural or social significance. Man's sexual preferences change over time and with experience. Rape can make people never want sex again or change their sexuality. Sometimes a new way of thinking changes what you're attracted to. So, we want to know what premises she has that affect her in such a way that she would be lesbian. I don't even want to know it to try and change her or anything, but rather because it's also the only way I could get over her and accept that she can never be with me. There is good reason, it's because maintaining the friendship causes the dissatisfaction. I wasn't dissatisfied before I met her, it was only after we became close enough friends. I could bring our friendship to a lower level than it was before, but there's no reason to do that because I have plenty of other friends and she wouldn't be anywhere above them in that case, so it'd just be pointless. I'm not consciously obsessing with the relationship I wish I had, it's automated and generated by premises, and so long as the premises remain, the feelings won't change. She has the right morals in place, she just doesn't follow them for reasons I can't introspect, but presume to be caused by fear. Hence, she feels bad about these relationships she keeps revisiting. I haven't been able to offer her an explanation for why she wants what she wants and she can't introspect it herself, much as she'd like to, it just doesn't come to her mind. And yeah, I'm definitely only portraying her negatives, because I don't need help figuring out her positives, so they're irrelevant to the discussion, so to keep the topic focused we can just assume she's good. As to if my romantic feelings are making me avoid saying if I made a mistake, what do you mean? Like, did I leave a part of the story out? No, I don't think so. Avoid telling *her* that I made a mistake? No, whenever I asked her if I was doing anything wrong she said no, and whenever she made a mistake I always took the approach of trying to blame myself first. And no, I don't believe all fundamentally good people necessarily 'pull-through' by the end. I've seen it in friends and family. I don't want to give up on helping good people. I understand space to learn for yourself is important, and I give that space generally- maybe not enough with Sara, going by what you've said, but I don't think completely letting her handle everything by herself would be the best course of action. Maybe it'll work, but it'll also waste years of her life. She's the kind of person that looks back on the time she's spent with flawed premises and regrets all of it, and to an extent I am too, and I don't think we're wrong to do so. That's what the first mistake is for, but it's clear that nothing is changing. You ever had a friend that keeps getting in bad relationships? The ones that clearly don't pick the right kinds of people for themselves? They don't learn from their relationships because it requires a lot of conscious effort and they apparently don't apply it, or perhaps misapply it. I guess that's her. No, she definitely has more sexual experience than me. I have it better figured out than her though because knowledge of your current sexual attraction is not affected or defined by the act of having sex. It's introspection really requires no more experience than taking note of what makes you horny, then asking yourself why. I don't claim to have all the answers in this arena, of course, but this is just what it seems to be to me. Perhaps you're right, I haven't had sex yet. I don't want to unless I know why first, either. There are no other women I would really want to sleep with besides Sara anyway, in my current situation, so I can't really gain the experience without forcing myself to sleep with someone I don't want to, which I don't think would be moral of me to do.
  2. There are always two fundamental decisions in life, to think, or not to think. In a broad sense, there are often only a couple of options in life. There were only 3 options in this case, with a near infinite number of subcategories of decisions for how to approach each, but 3 real approaches given the situation. And saying that seems like saying that you wouldn't care if your friends and family die, even if you care for them a lot. Their death isn't depriving you of value or preventing you from achieving anything, but the people you care about become a value to you, and you want to maintain your values. As such, I feel fairly closely tied to her decisions, they definitely affect my mood a great amount. And your analogy also seems flawed- permanent romantic rejection doesn't warrant permanently leaving her? If I would *never* be satisfied in a relationship with her, why would I only leave for a few months? I'd be condemning myself to a life of permanent dissatisfaction, sacrificing my own happiness for hers. And pain over romantic rejection is temporary? I felt it for a year. I wouldn't describe a man that gets drunk every day for a year as being temporary or in a phase, I'd call him an alcoholic. Unless I lost my feelings for her, they would not go away with time if I'm seeing her every day, I would relive the pain of rejection constantly. Again, she feels unsatisfied in all her relationships. I'm not denying her happiness. She is frustrated by her own sexual desires. She has sex and it makes her feel bad, in a progressive, cumulative manner. And I did realize that I'm friends with her because she's a fundamentally good person, but that's not a course of action, that would be inaction, in which case, you're suggesting I go with option 1, stay with her being romantically unsatisfied myself. But it sounds like you're suggesting that I just *stop* caring about her romantically. I imagine you're experienced in this, so I imagine you understand how this is impossible unless one of changes our values. Doing absolutely nothing different and just trying to force myself to not like her romantically will not solve anything, and I'll only be lying to myself. Figuring it out 5 or 6 times? For 5 years? Nothing changes with any of these relationships. She's not learning anything. Besides, am I the person that agrees with Rand that sex was a big deal? That you don't rush into it? That it should be based strongly on values? That it requires a lot of care because it *is* of such psychological importance? There's a difference between not knowing everything and gaining some experience and promiscuity, and I understand that. But I'm starting to get the feeling that no one else thinks sex is a very big deal. Rand (I understand not everyone agrees with her on this subject, but I'm hoping someone else on here will if nowhere else) said that because sex is so confusing and so important at the same time, it requires perhaps more care and application of reason than perhaps any other field of life. That's what I believe. So I mean, unless you convince me that sex isn't a big deal, I'm probably not going to budge that I don't think she should keep pursuing these relationships that make her unhappy, that are all the same as each other, while she doesn't learn anything from them and only wants them in a physical sense while she herself despises them because she desires a romance with me and is frustrated she can't feel the same physical attraction she does emotionally. I think it tears her apart, and I don't wanna leave it alone and doom her to misery.
  3. I'm glad you've caught on to my ultimate dilemma. So should this just be dropped? I mean, my whole philosophy of life is to understand myself fully. It's an ultimate goal of mine, and of hers. I could just abandon the notion of understanding this, but it conflicts with my values. Sex does not bring Sara happiness or fulfillment, because it's just a whirlwind of attractions that confuse her. She makes herself feel guilty for it, and my own jealousy I'm sure only contributes to the problem (something I don't *try* and do, by the way, but it's consequential of caring for her so much). So we're both unhappy, and the whole concept of "screw it, just have sex with whatever you feel like" doesn't work for either of us in the long term. I know it'd feel good for the moment, but I also know I'd feel bad in the long run. Same situation for her. But now that we're on the same page, it brings up another proposition I was wondering. I think I understand why I am attracted to Sara specifically- that is, she meets my sense of life qualifications, treats me with greater respect and loyalty, would make an excellent life partner, we share the same sense of humor and enjoy the same activities, believe the same principles, etc. (keep in mind, I have left out all the great things about her because I don't need any help or advice with them, but they are there). I believe that forming a relationship with her specifically would be a moral thing to do. So, I would act upon this if given the opportunity. So when I say I am confused as to why I am straight and the same thing with everyone, I mean the concept in general. But, as to why I'm specifically attracted to this girl, I'm clear in the head, and believe it to be fully logical. So, in my mind, I think that's why I'm only really attracted to her and not too much other women, and thus that's what I consider moral- to date someone only if I know why I want to. If I've made an error in reasoning with this premise that I hold, I would be fully open to being rebutted. This same sort of understanding is what I want her to achieve. I know it'd make her much happier. As to the 10% thing, from many factors that would draw this topic out on a tangent and are irrelevant to the larger concept, so unless you want to argue that people are either 100% gay or 100% straight, just roll with it.
  4. No, I didn't feel she owed me something, it's the feeling of "the girl I like is sleeping with someone else", really not any different from what you'd see in a TV show. The former, yes, as in we had agreed that the principle of dating people based on mutual values was a moral thing to do. And no, I don't know her values better than herself, but she's a confused soul, and I like to think I'm an observant fellow. I recognized patterns in their relationship, presented them to Sara, to which she confirmed my speculation usually. For the sake of brevity, you can think of it as simply as me pointing out things that indicated lack of the principle of dating people based on mutual values. I didn't pose that question until later on, when I told her how I felt, though indirectly. I mean, I told her I have to stop talking to her so I can get over her, and she didn't want that at all. I told her the truth, that the only way I could still bear to be around her was if she wasn't sleeping with other people- not that we had to sleep together or anything aggressive like that, just if she could refrain from sex until we figure out why we want to have sex with the people we want to. I didn't expect her to date me, that is I figured 90% chance of not dating me, 10% chance she could one day, and I put my bet on the 10%, I suppose. We didn't really have anything to lose that way, and the other way we'd lose our friendship, so, I still don't think it was a bad idea. And no, she isn't obligated to reciprocate that, but she made a decision to try and figure it out. And I think that's a silly attitude for looking at our sexual orientations. No, I definitely don't trust that she knows why she's a lesbian. I don't trust anyone on their sexuality, because nobody has figured it out. I've looked up dozens of psychological and biological and philosophical articles, and the plain truth of it is that we act on emotional whims when it comes to why we want to have sex with certain people. I don't know why I want to have sex with certain kinds of women, but I'll be damned if I throw my hands up and say "screw it, I'll do it anyway". I'm not on the Utilitarianist forums, so trying to understand sex is not a value I'm likely to give up anytime soon. I think it's extremely important for our own ultimate romantic happiness to be able to figure it out logically. I'm facing the facts, and the fact is you likely don't know why you're straight or gay or bi or whatever you are, I don't know why I'm straight, Sara doesn't know why she's lesbian, and ignoring such a big part of ourselves isn't going to get us anywhere. Perhaps I miscommunicated. When I first met Sara, she was in a relatively healthy romantic relationship with a girl. It was one I encouraged, and in fact I think I helped strengthen their relationship in a lot of ways until their ultimate breakup for reasons that would take up an entire other topic. This relationship was unhealthy. It was bad. Sara wasn't happy with her new girlfriend, and she was in a state of confusion and apathy with her, and almost entirely dated her for sex. I didn't mention being happy for Sara because this relationship was only bad for her. Again, the reasons for this are vast, but you can presume that she was simply unhappy with this new girl. Nasty, I agree, unjust though? What would you have me do? There were literally 3 possible things that could happen, and I told her all 3. I could stay with her while she dates this girl and be miserable myself. I could leave her and make her miserable. She could not date someone. She chose the third option. I don't really see anything else I could have or should have done other than maybe word it differently or time it differently. She didn't like the girl much anyway, and wanted to break up with her sometime in the near future regardless. Again, she wasn't sad to leave this girl. It truly didn't upset her given my own knowledge of the situation. I agree, these are very possible. To be honest with the controlling issue, I really don't try to be, and I honestly would ask her frequently if I was doing anything wrong at all, anything that bothered her or made her uncomfortable, and she routinely said no, so if I really was being too controlling, I wasn't trying to be and there was no avenue for me to discover that I was. And I would have responded negatively, but I think you're asking a loaded question there: I don't believe that anyone should 'explore' their sexuality by experimentation, and I think that's a disgusting, horrifying concept. I think that sex should be something that you're very careful of, and agree with Rand on that front. I don't think I should have promiscuous sex, 'exploring' what I like and don't like, especially because I believe it's bogus. I know what I find attractive, it's automated, and I don't need to have sex with a man to know I don't want it. What I suggested to Sara was that we explore it by means of inductive reasoning, discussion, not physical experimentation. And so I answer your question that I would have responded negatively because if the only other way of approaching exploring one's sexuality besides reason is responding to emotional whims, which I fundamentally disagree with. If she had found out why she was gay and it was for good reasons, though, I would have responded positively, I think. I'd be personally disappointed, but I could be happy for her.
  5. Hi there, this is my first post here- I actually joined this site purely to ask some other Objectivists this question, get some help from people that may understand my values, as I've been an Objectivist for about 3-4 years now. So, almost two years ago, I met a girl, named Sara, freshman year of college. She was one of the first people I met, and we got along splendidly. Not long after I befriended her, I found out she was a lesbian, with a girlfriend. This didn't bother me at all, as we were just friends. Over time, our friendship deepened- we spent all of our time together, she broke up with her girlfriend about halfway through the school year, and by around Spring I had developed feelings for her. We could discuss anything together, I spoke to her of Rand and introduced her to Fountainhead and her sense of wonder and discovery when reading it was extraordinarily reminiscent of my own. We shared virtually all of the same values, we shared our lives together throughout the year. I knew the problem, I didn't believe I would ever be able to start a romantic relationship with her, but I didn't care- I was too damn happy with her, I couldn't find myself attracted to any other woman for that entire year. As the year was ending, she had sex with another girl. She felt awful about it, she didn't tell me about it for a week, and cried very much that night. I believe it's because she believes the same principles that I did, that having sex should be an important thing based on strong values, but she didn't even like this girl's personality, she just thought she was pretty. She felt awful about it, and needless to say, so did I. But after her night with this girl, for some reason, she didn't find her attractive anymore. I chalked it up to her learning a lesson by means of experience, as her sexual experience with the girl was one she heavily regretted. Summer came around. We were still best friends, I still hadn't told her how I felt. We texted each other and talked every day. Midway through the summer, she started dating another girl. I found out through Facebook. The girl that Sara had slept with had introduced them. I felt like a fool. The two of them had a complicated relationship that I view with disgust still. For much time, Sara was convinced that she wanted to date her based on mutual values, as we had agreed upon. The very first time I talked to her about it, I discovered that she really didn't share any values with her, and there were plenty of things that bothered each other. Sara rather quickly realized that she didn't really like anything about her, except that she thought she was hot. She agreed she should break up with her. The next school year began. Sara's girlfriend helped her move in the first day. I hung out with both of them, but whenever I was there, Sara would almost completely ignore her girlfriend because her and I got along so much better. She complained of how she believed her girlfriend was a boring person, but she would flip-flop between saying that she thought she was a great person and a really normal person. I believe she was trying to justify it to herself so she wouldn't feel like some sort of slut, but going by Objectivism, I believed that facing the damn facts was the real solution. Midway through the year, I had enough of her sleeping with this girl while we spent literally all of our time together- I view sex as an important thing, and see it as hypocrisy when she claimed she would much rather have me as her friend than to have ever met her girlfriend as she has sex with her. I told her how I felt. I laid it all down, that I was sorry to put it on her, and that I understood she was a lesbian, and that I didn't expect her to date me or anything, but there were only two things to do: she could agree to join me as we quest to discover why we are attracted to what we are, so that we can know if we could be together one day; or we could just stop talking to each other, she can continue being lesbian, and I can move on with my life. She cried very much that night, and had no answer. The next day she broke up with her girlfriend, and I thought I had my answer. A week passed, and she disappeared all day, and I searched for her, desperate as to where she had gone. I couldn't find her. As I lay sleeping that night, I heard moaning next door all night- she had brought her girlfriend back over to have sex with her. I've never felt so awful in my entire life as I did that night- an immense sense of betrayal, my stomach was twisted in knots, and I was immobilized. I wanted to cry and vomit, but the sense of helplessness held back both. I confronted her the next morning, weak from clenching my stomach for the last 8 hours. I asked her why. She burst into tears and told me it was because she felt it was all impossible, that she would lose me anyway, and I might as well leave her now. She said she did it because she knew it'd make me leave her. She left hurriedly for class, and I explained the situation to her (ex?) girlfriend. Sara got back from class, and her girlfriend was pissed at her. I had dozens of unanswered questions, but Sara chose to calm down her girlfriend instead, all day, leaving me high and dry for a more in-depth discussion until the next day. Their relationship became one of friendship after this point, and to my knowledge they didn't have sex again. Seeing how manic the situation had made her, I chose to forgive her, even though the pain was so great from the night I heard them having sex. Maybe the pain made me more susceptible to forgiving her, I still don't know. Anyways, the next few months passed and their friendship dwindled until they finally stopped talking altogether. After all this time, and another month passing by, even though we spent virtually all of our time together, we had still never discussed attraction, something of vital importance to our own relationship's growth. I brought it up with her, and explained my concerns that over the last month, she had changed, and she had altogether stopped discussing anything of importance with me, only trivial things, and how we needed to figure out our attractions. She cried once more, telling me that she didn't think she could ever do it (find me attractive in all my masculinity, that is). I begged her that we should discuss it, we've *never* discussed it, to not jump to conclusions so quickly, but she wouldn't listen. She said she didn't want to talk anymore because my existence made her feel awful about herself, telling me that she believed me too good for her to bear. She said she just wanted some alone time, and that she wouldn't form or seek out relationships with anyone else, she just wanted to be by herself. I agreed to it, and I myself cried for the first time in years that night. The next day, she came back to her room with another random girl on her softball team whom she never spoke to beforehand. I saw and text her to please not do anything with her, that it's only been a day, and she knew how I had felt when she had done this before. I begged her. She promised me she wouldn't and that she wasn't even trying anything with this girl. I heard the moaning once more as I tried to sleep. She'd lied to me, right to my goddamn face. This time, all the same feelings returned, as well as rage. As soon as I was sure what I was hearing, I leaped out of bed, got out of my room, and slammed the door shut as hard as I possibly could, hoping she would hear it and know it as a sign that I would never speak to her again. I told my roommate what happened, and didn't dare go back to my room to try and sleep until 5 in the morning. That was 2 and a half months ago. I still think about her every day. This is absolute agony. I can't move on from her. Time isn't doing shit. I haven't even looked at her, let alone talked to her, for 2 and a half months. I still hear her and her random softball teammate fucking from time to time, and it's the worst feeling I've ever felt and I wanna break apart the damn wall and beat the shit out of her every time I hear it. But I can't do anything about it either! I think if I talk to her I won't be able to say anything except curse her for being such a complete asshole, for being a coward, for lying to me and betraying my trust after 2 years of having nobody but her. I understand that the usual response to this is just take some time to get over her, but I haven't felt any better at all since the very first week we stopped speaking. I miss her so much, everything she says and does. I even keep myself busy with other things, and I don't purposely think of her, but I can't help it. I still don't really want to date or have sex with any other woman. So even though I want to be friends with her with all of my heart, everything is just broken beyond repair- if we realistically did start spending time together again, she now has another girlfriend or fuck-buddy of some sort in the picture, she still hasn't changed her approach to relationships, she still doesn't want to talk about anything, and I know if nothing is different, it will inevitably lead to me being hurt once more. And I think I understand why I can't move on from her. It's because we still share all the same values. See, even though she has sex with these women that don't deserve it, so to speak, that she values her own self so little that basically any hot girl can have sex with her, she feels bad about it. Even though she doesn't understand herself and her own sexuality and is too scared to do so, she doesn't believe that it's right. She thinks that I'm perfect, and that she's unworthy. Her own lack of confidence seems to be her only flaw. Of course, she could just be a masterful bullshitter, but I don't believe that she devoted 2 years of her life to bullshit. I believe we still share the same values and she's just too scared, maybe even cowardly, to figure it out for herself. But I'm so angry at her I don't want to even see her, but I'm so much less happy without her. I don't know what to do. Help? Insight? Anybody?
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