Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Posts posted by KorbenDallas

  1. 4 hours ago, Nicky said:

    According to happiness, she was attracted by his initial rejection (which she interpreted as independence, even though it wasn't), and dumped him because he got too clingy (which is psychological dependence). So how did you get from there to the exact opposite?

    When he rejected her she saw she wasn't dependent upon him, so she went after him.  They dated casually for five weeks, but she is promiscuous and she appears to go after men who she deems aren't dependent on her at all.  I interpreted the friction they were having as her trying to establish more dominance in the relationship, when she couldn't get that she was gone.  So, not the "exact opposite."

  2. You said that there was, " was nothing I wouldn’t blow off to be with her, and she must have picked up on it."  And with the additional context you provided, fundamentally it sounds like she wants whatever man she is going after to be dependent on her.  This guy Johnny, too.

    If you want an Objectivist answer, Independence is a virtue and you won't be able to practice it with her.  She wants dependence and if she doesn't get it, she's gone.  If you were to practice independence then you'll need a woman that practices that, too.  With her you'll have to practice emotional and psychological dependency and try to mold yourself to be what she wants.  This is my "blunt" opinion.

  3. 1 hour ago, RohinGupta said:

    True, there are elements of politics in business. The Government-Business relationship does have few layers, and also businesses are impacted by Government policies. However, these aspects are not the essence of business. There is a clear line between the two.

    Politics is about protecting a rational man from irrational people like criminals, frauds, trespassers etc. Or it's about protecting a rational individual from the irrational actions of otherwise rational individuals, as in breach of contract. The business, Management or Organizational Ethics that is, its about studying how a rational person can collaborate with other rational people in society, or rational aspects of any person in society. Employer-Employee is one such relationship, which the book studies in detail.

    So essence of business, and essence of politics, are indeed converse of each other.


    It seems that when you say "business" you mean the Management or Organization Ethics of a business, which is more specific than the business itself.  So I'm understanding that you're wanting use Management and Organizational Ethics and apply Objectivist principles there; it does seem that reason, purpose, and self-esteem are good values to start from and would benefit the business.  But I still disagree that the social space of a business is non-political, even if management encourages and rewards rationality there will always be work politics and irrationality---meaning there will always be people using immoral tactics (ethics) to gain status or power.  You're saying that the essence of Management or Organizational Ethics is a rational social space, but that doesn't seem like the essence, it seems normative.

  4. 2 hours ago, thenelli01 said:


    I'm having a bit of trouble spiritually. I was in a relationship with someone who was narcissistic, which I'm learning about now post-leaving through education. I wasn't looking for a relationship when we met 4 years ago but it kind of just happened. Anyways, without going too much into specifics - he cheated on me for the whole 4 years straight, used me for money, wasn't productive etc. I constantly worked to try to fix the issues, but eventually I realized how bad the deceit was (I knew he was cheating, I just didn't know the extent, or I admittedly evaded/hoped he would change). FYI - any cheating/lying is bad regardless of degree, I'm not suggesting otherwise, whether it is a text or a physical encounter as this contradicted the understanding of our relationship. I admit my part in this by staying and not leaving at the first sign of deceit... I was constantly being told "I was the one he was gonna marry", "it's just bad habits that he was working to solve" and then just a constant pity party where he constantly had this "If I just get over this hump, everything will be great" mentality... but the overcoming of the hump never came. It was a way of life. I was constantly stressed, preoccupied with his cheating/problems that I couldn't ever focus on my life and my goals.


    I finally had the strength to leave (we moved to Cali primarily to pursue his career dreams and just for the adventure) and moved back home. Now, 4 months later... I'm kind of in a bad spot mentally. I feel a bit of confusion about what happened... I'm having nightmares almost every night about cheating and such. It constantly preoccupies my mind. I'm struggling to open up to other people and form meaningful connections. Rationally I know that the proper response is "It's over, accept it. Move on with your life, take them as lessons" but it's not that easy. There is still a bunch of hurt and confusion and just pain in that I let myself get so treated so badly/low. 


    Does anyone have any suggestions on how to move forward (besides seeing a therapist)? I took him out of my life completely last week... I try to stay positive - I have good and bad days. But, I really want to move on and have a meaningful, happy life and friendships, but I can't seem to do it. Some days I don't even want to leave the house or talk to anyone, mostly because when I do I'm constantly dealing with other people's issues/shortcomings that it just adds additional stress. When I do go out, I make it by way of principle to try to stay optimistic and positive to the people around me and not talk about what is bothering me or anything personal really. The hard part is also that I'm gay and no one really knows this so I only have 1 friend I can talk to about it - who introduced me to the topic of narcissism. Also, I don't really like talking badly about people, even if they deserve it, second handedly (i.e. gossip, etc.) so that is another difficulty trying to get over. Can someone please help me out?

    Most of the time, a narcissist has been that way for a long time.  They've built up to it their entire life, testing methods, refining, thinking about "how to get away with it," etc.  Their primary orientation toward other people are their narcissistic behavior and tactics, why?  Because it works.  It's rare for a narcissist to change, and promise of change is a lot of the time another tactic.  Going no-contact with this person took some courage by you, and it sounds like it was a good first step to a positive life.

    As far as suggestions go, education will likely be a good endeavor.  A good book on manipulators and their tactics is In Sheep's Clothing, and you can watch a few interviews by the author online to get a better idea what the book is about.  I don't agree with everything in the book, but moreover I found it to be rational and helpful.  It would also suggest to study/continue to study philosophy and psychology as well.  It would be a more balanced approach this way, because taking a deep dive learning about manipulators and narcissists might cause someone to lose focus on themselves and the good.

    There are a lot of Youtube channels out there that can be helpful, but most of them aren't actual psychologists.  Vital Mind Psychology is a Youtube channel that has many helpful videos and is a licensed and practicing psychologist, if you haven't found it already.  It will likely take some time.  I noticed you said you went no-contact just one week ago, so chances are you haven't heard the last of this person.

  5. I Googled, "ice cream leads to shorter lifespan" but it didn't return anything.  What it did find were articles about obesity and life-shortening conditions resulting from obesity like diabetes and heart disease.  So, as predicted, ice cream itself doesn't shorten a person's lifespan.  If ice cream is an indicator of an unhealthy diet and lack of exercise, then it would be the unhealthy diet and lack of exercise that might lead to obesity, again not ice cream itself.  Desserts can be part of a healthy diet, and can certainly provide satisfaction and pleasure if one so chooses. 

    But here again arrives the question:  Does someone necessarily have to choose a healthy diet to value their own life?  The short answer is: No.  What it means for someone to value their own life (in Objectivism) is for someone to take responsibility for their own life and to provide for themselves, without sacrificing others.  Beyond that what someone chooses to do with their life is up to them.  If someone like Steve Irwin wants to pursue a dangerous career, then as long as he's providing for himself and not sacrificing others then that's up to him.  (As an aside, I enjoyed his show quite a bit.)

    Personally, I consciously made a decision that I value my life and I believe there is nothing after this life, so I wanted to live as long as possible.  It's a value that I chose and I have been making decisions to try to achieve it like diet and exercise.  But I enjoy dark chocolate and eat it everyday in moderation, with the occasional binge.  It doesn't conflict with my other values like diet, and I get to enjoy sweets as well.  Crocodiles, on the other hand, I should definitely stay away from them, I'd likely become their dessert.

  6. 6 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Drinking coffee

    Interesting, I drink one large cup of coffee per day to help wake up.  I wasn't aware there was a study that suggests it might prolong life:


    MONDAY, July 2, 2018 (HealthDay News) -- Having a morning cup of java -- and another and another -- might prolong your life, a new study suggests.

    In fact, drinking lots of coffee was associated with a lower risk of early death, including among people who downed eight or more cups per day.

    And it's not the caffeine. To reap the benefit, it doesn't matter if your coffee is decaf or instant or caffeinated, the researchers said.


    6 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Drinking teas (green, red, black, hibiscus, ginseng, mint etc.) instead of plain water, due to their antiadipose quality and antioxidants

    I don't drink teas, and I am skeptical about drinking tea instead of plain water.  I do drink plain water, perhaps around a gallon a day, and have been doing so for several years.

    6 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Intermittent fasting

    On a normal day I eat two meals within an 8hr period then I don't eat another meal for 16hrs.  But in the morning I have coffee with some milk and at night I have red wine.  Perhaps this doesn't get the full effect of intermittent fasting, but the reason I started doing this is because I'm not hungry in the morning and don't gain an appetite until around midday.  I didn't find out that intermittent fasting was a "thing" until just recently.

    7 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    30-40% caloric restriction, or more (CR) - consuming all of your essential nutrients, but ingesting less energy (calories) than you burn in a day. This forces the body to cannibalize its old proteins for energy, making way for a faster production of new proteins (and as a result, slowing down aging). [...]

    About two years ago I reduced the number of calories of intake, and stopped eating breakfast.  I re-worked my diet and began vitamin supplementation to help make up for reduced number of meals.  If you burn more calories than you intake, you lose weight.  So there will be a balance between caloric intake, body mass, metabolism, nutrition, and overall health.  I suppose the process I underwent was "caloric restriction."

    7 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Methionine restriction (MR) - decreasing intake of the amino-acid methionine  (currently only practicable by moderating or eliminating consumption of animal products)

    For many years I reduced how much beef I ate and opted for fish, poultry, and low-fat ham instead.  Again two years ago when I reworked my diet I changed that completely and I eat beef and hamburger regularly, and I've never felt better.  The studies that showed red meat was bad for health were wrong.  Healthy beef----ie. low in fat---is good for you and causes no cardiovascular risk.  High quality beef as in grass-fed and grass-finished beef is the best and most nutritious and is what I eat.  Personally I could never become a vegan, but I know many people who practice veganism say good things about it.  Yet, I question what diet they practiced before becoming a vegan.  If a person simply goes from an unhealthy diet to a healthy one, no matter what the healthy diet is, there would be a marked improvement in health.  Veganism is trendy right now---which is great---but I won't ever become a vegan.

    7 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Protein restriction (PR). Generally, bodybuilders consume 1g of protein or more per lb of bodyweight everyday. This is the surest way to make your liver explode, even if you are healthy. For contrast, you can Google a powerlifter named Dr. Amen-Ra which maintains a muscular body on roughly half a gram of protein per kg (kilogram) of bodyweight.

    With the bodybuilding example there is likely a difference between processed protein as one would get in protein powders vs. eating protein from natural food sources.  I did the protein shake thing several years ago and I never felt sicker, but I find it hard to imagine that if someone were to consume the same amount of protein from natural food sources they would have such negative effects.

    I see someone consuming large amounts of protein for bodybuilding as purpose-driven, but for an everyday lifestyle consuming such large amounts of protein might be unnecessary.  I'm skeptical about protein restriction to be honest.

    7 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Glycation restriction (GR)

    I cut out consuming large amounts of sugar and sweets in general, for me it was to cut out unnecessary carbs.  Today I look forward to eating healthy meals as much as I used to look forward to sweets.  It took a while, but my appetite did adjust.

    7 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Supplementation with various substances: creatine, probiotics, cocoa, ginger, broccoli extract, glucosamine, resveratrol, curcumin/turmeric etc.

    I stopped consuming almost all of the products that the fitness industry pushes and I've never felt healthier.  I am extremely skeptical about the benefits of these powders, their long-term effects, and the ingredients and minerals/metals they contain.  I supplement with vitamins, along with a healthy diet, and feel great.  If prolonging life is the goal, I just suggest that people do their research and consider what they are putting into their bodies.

    7 hours ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    Stress management, including meditation

    I think this is the standout in the list.  It seems that it's a matter of pride in western culture to accept stress and endure.  Or accept stress and have a eustress balance.  Or other coping mechanisms.  But why not remove the stressor instead?  For me, that's been a priority in life for several years now and I've had a marked improvement in physical, emotional, and mental health.

    National Geographic has a documentary that aired in 2008 that I found very helpful; Stress, Portrait of a Killer.  Though some of the studies in the documentary are questionable, it was a real eye-opener for me and since that time more studies have come out to suggest that stress is linked to several life-shortening conditions and diseases, including cancer.

  7. 8 hours ago, StrictlyLogical said:

    Apparently I need to reconsider the value of my time and the length of my posts...

    I thought it was good.  Identifying that struggle isn't a necessarily a value is what I thought was important to the scenario of climbing the mountain.  Personally I could obtain a lot of value from a mild climb, enjoying nature and the experience.  While someone different might value more of a challenge and my mild climb would seem boring.  So when Veritas asks if one should take the hardest path on every endeavor, it depends one the particular person and how much they value the struggle.

    I would add that in general the greater the value, the harder it is to obtain, and the higher degree of rationality it takes to achieve it.  Climbing Everest requires a high degree of reason to know the oxygen levels at different elevations, how much physical effort one can exert before needing rest, knowledge of frostbite, how the cold affects one's mind and biology, etc.  I personally wouldn't attempt such a climb, or other similar peaks.  I wouldn't value it at all, while there are others who value the struggle.

  8. 1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    Ill-health is not the "introduction of a mind/body dichotomy."

    "Ill-health" is more generally stated than what I said.  I stated ill-health due to bad lifestyle choices.

    1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    It could be evasion, which is not recommended.

    It could also be a choice -- to shorten one's lifespan (or to risk such a shortening, at the very least) for the gain of values along the way. I'm not going to argue the morality of such a choice here and now, but I've argued it elsewhere, many times, including the thread I'd already linked in an earlier post. Suffice it to say that some people are willing to experience a shorter life, if, in their opinion, it is a richer/better life. Whatever sort of choice that is, and whether you agree or disagree with it, it is not evasion.

    This is well said.  I could say more on the topic, but we can agree to disagree, I have no problem with that.  I think I found a post closest to our discussion:


  9. 1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    Yes -- fat people can be happy, productive and rational. (For that matter, a happy, productive life is not often stumbled into by whim, or on accident...) And the larger point is that, in prioritizing values according to individual interests and context (including time spent exercising, for instance), we should not expect rational people to value the same things, or even where commonalities exist, not necessarily to the same degree.

    Sure, rational in some areas then and perhaps not others, their body health.  Later in life you're mind might be healthy but your body won't, so you'll be introducing a mind/body dichotomy, whereas if you thought it through you could have taken care of your body now, and not had problems later.  There is a mountain of facts out there to show that people who are overweight or obese are more likely to have health problems earlier in life than someone who took care of themselves, and those who have health problems earlier in life shorten their lifespan.  So if someone is an athiest they recognize that this life is the only one they have, why would they shorten their life when there is a mountain of facts out there?  Evasion?  A choice?

  10. On 12/29/2017 at 11:22 AM, DonAthos said:

    As for "eating oneself into obesity," it seems my destiny on this board to go to bat for the value of eating ice cream, and associated pleasures, time and again. (You and I have been involved in threads where I've already expressed some of this, I know, but here is a recent discussion touching on some of these issues.) While I wouldn't recommend "obesity," as such, it cannot be denied that there is some potential cost to a life of eating ice cream, or cheesecake, or etc. Are there people we would describe as "fat" or "obese" (which, I may be mistaken, but I believe is a medical term with objective criteria) who can lead happy, productive lives? As much as you may not be able to fathom such a thing, I think so.

    At the same time, are there some results so dire and inimical to what we'd otherwise describe as "the good life" that, without knowing anything else, we may condemn them as evidence of immorality? Perhaps. The people who wind up the focus of documentaries about being 900 pounds, and unable to get out of bed, come to mind. But short of that kind of extremity, I think it's unjust and dangerous to judge the choices of others sans their personal context, especially along the sorts of lines you've suggested: those insufficiently fashion-minded, etc. That isn't judgment so much as it is judgmentalism.

    Happy, productive--but rational?

  11. I don't think it's always possible to have a complete integration between our productivity and true pursuits.  Plenty of artists take less-stressful jobs to pursue their art, and get spiritual fulfillment and productive in that realm, while maintaining their material values with a working job.  It's interesting that a bodybuilder did this.  I've recently learned Rucka Rucka Ali is a Youtuber, an Objectivist, and currently works a 9-5.

    I don't see anything wrong with taking a less stressful job in order to have other pursuits.  Having an integration between the two is the goal, but in how our economy is setup, that might not always be possible.  Being productive doesn't always mean making money at it, as long as they are providing for themselves and aren't dependent on others for their material values, a person could still live and lead a fulfilling life working a job for money and pursue other productive interests.

  12. 13 hours ago, Nerian said:

    I've always found this to be a huge gaping hole in Objectivism. What exactly IS my interest. What exactly IS the standard. How exactly do I deal with the particulars of being a man? Maybe it was obvious to Rand but it's not to me.

    I always identified those three aspects of man you mentioned a bit different. I identified them as spiritual, mental and physical. Spiritual (pleasure/happiness/joy), mental (mental health, character, mindsets, knowledge, skills), physical (corporeal health, fitness)


    Nerian I like this quite a bit, I didn't quote the whole thing, but I liked the whole of it.  In my opinion, you're right about Rand and some Objectvists focusing more on mind and ignoring the body or not focusing on it enough.  Rand smoked and took uppers, for instance--perhaps the science wasn't quite there for her to completely know they were dangerous for her health, but there it is.  I know she took walks quite a bit, she said it helped her cognition (ref. The Art of Fiction audio series).  I think having proper focus on bodily health is essential for a proper mind/body integration, and harmony.  I've mentioned Nathaniel Branden on here before, so I'll mention him again, that I think he was more focused on mind/body health than Rand was.  I think I'm more focused than Branden was.  So I completely agree with you, and proper nutrition, diet, exercise, sleep, etc. are essential for total health.  One big thing in Objectivism is to plan long range, and if this life is the only one we have, then why wouldn't we take care of our body more, to extend our own lifespan to its fullest?  I think it's practicing self-responsibility in doing so.

    As I said before, I liked the whole of your post.  I don't know if you've seen David Kelly's Logical Structure of Objectivism, both the book and the diagram.  In the book, Kelly touches on some topics you've came up with yourself, with a hierarchy of values, material values, spiritual, etc.  I thought I'd suggest it as something for you to look at, but as I've said I like what you came up with.  It was well thought out and organized.

  13. I think being productive has to do with the mind being efficacious more fundamentally than producing material values, though generally I get more of a sense of achievement when there is physical involvement.  The latter I think has to do with the body and stagnation.  For example when Rand would get stuck with writing or have writer's block, she would take a walk.  This would more often clear her up and she could continue writing.  This isn't to say that one can't gain a sense of enormous achievement from purely mental productivity, but there is a connection.  Professional video gamers often intermix exercising with their video game training and cite they have more mental focus in doing so.

  14. 2 hours ago, Jesse Abbott-Dallamora said:

    The problem is that you can't obtain knowledge from a false premise.  To acquire knowledge you need both truth and validity.  If you end up with a conclusion that is true which is improperly validated or based on a false premise your conclusion is not knowledge.  It is not knowledge because it has not been integrated into your totality of knowledge contradiction free.

    Right, knowledge is both contextual and hierarchical.  If someone has a false premise they need to check their premises down to reality, to what exists.

  15. 1 hour ago, KyaryPamyu said:

    This one was also posted (I think by Nerian). I think it's an exhaustive look at the issue discussed in this thread.

    Thanks, that is contextual.  Upthread you mentioned something I agree with, "I personally agree with Peikoff that ethics is not for the dying."  My thoughts are that ethics are normative and are a tool for living, so figuring if it is moral to commit suicide seems contradictory.  But I think there certain contexts where man could maintain his life as his ultimate value and still end it, for example having a terminal illness that is causing him tremendous pain.  The concept of man's life as the standard of value or happiness as the ultimate purpose isn't possible anymore.  He would value his life enough, ie. living it, enough to know that it isn't possible and choose to end it.   (Checking OPAR, I'm seeing some of this on p247-248.)

  16. On 1/17/2017 at 10:49 PM, Phylo said:

    Where does one begin to try to apply such a vast amount of data especially if one is new to abstraction mentally?

    I recommend a study in logic.  Peikoff has a good one: Introduction to Logic

    Lionel Ruby's Logic: An Introduction is a good textbook to use with the course.

    Also, Rand goes over abstraction in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

  17. 5 hours ago, DonAthos said:
    On 1/16/2017 at 11:13 AM, Nerian said:

    If I'm saying we do not choose our values, and that they are innate, then I guess I'm arguing against Objectivism proper.


    On 1/16/2017 at 2:19 PM, KorbenDallas said:

    So if you're saying that value is "that which gives you pleasure," then yes, you're arguing against Objectivism and any form I know about.

    If I could wave a magic wand (well, I could, but what good would it do me?), I would try to get people (and especially Objectivists) to relax a bit on the issue of whether something is or is not "Objectivism proper." At least at first: there is a fine, but secondary, conversation to have as to whether or not something is or is not Objectivist, strictly speaking.

    What we ought to discuss at first, rather, is whether something is or is not real. Whether we're describing reality accurately, and in concord with reason. I dare say that this approach is "the Objectivist approach," which is itself more essential to Objectivist philosophy than any specific position (except the embrace of reason and reality in itself).

    If it turns out to be the case that something is real, but inconsistent with Objectivism, well then, so much the worse for Objectivism. If it turns out that something is real, and consistent with Objectivism, but that our earlier understanding of Objectivism was flawed (such that what we believed to be a "contradiction" was not), then there is no actual conflict.

    In either case, what matters most (by far) is: what is real.

    Sure, but that's a bit out of context to me, 'Objectivism proper' was Nerian's premise which I was responding to.   The entire context of my reply to him began with recognizing reality, then building a definition, presenting it (also saying, "But even if one doesn't accept that definition,...), and then contrasting it with his current view.  I agree Objectivism proper/not-proper doesn't lead to fruitful conversations.  Rand's philosophy is part of what exists, and it is up to the individual to judge whether or not it is for them, aspects of it, different versions, or whatever.

  18. 3 hours ago, Nerian said:

    If I'm saying we do not choose our values, and that they are innate, then I guess I'm arguing against Objectivism proper.

    When I think of value I often think, "what standard"?  Surely people use different ways for choosing values, perhaps they think they are 'innate', perhaps they believe they are intrinsic, perhaps they think it's determinism, perhaps by caprice, perhaps by consensus (whether the group is present at the time, or thinking about the group), perhaps trying to uphold or gain prestige, perhaps by emotion, ... and so on.

    Nathaniel Branden described* value as presupposing a few things: an object (whether tangible or intangible, like an idea), a standard, a purpose, and necessitated action to gain or keep the object in light of alternatives--these are the concepts that hierarchically lie beneath "value".  I drew attention to the standard part earlier, which helps define what value is, and we know Objectivism says it's "that which one acts to gain or keep."  But even if one doesn't accept that definition, there is still the object, purpose, and action--these are a matter of identity and causation.

    So if you're saying that value is "that which gives you pleasure," then yes, you're arguing against Objectivism and any form I know about.  With emotionalism, all bets are off in having that argument because it will be largely based off of your emotion, not reason, trying to use your emotions as a standard of judgment--reality is something we can all talk about**... it's objective.


    * From The Basic Principles of Objectivism lecture series, also in book form as The Vision of Ayn Rand
    ** From Ayn Rand and the "New Intellectual" interview

  19. 16 hours ago, Eiuol said:

    I'm saying that if we talk about thought broadly, that'd be an easier way to talk about how emotions are a consequence of evaluations. But anyway, I was trying to clarify exactly my idea, and also explaining how you can't say where emotions -should- come from. By nature, our emotions come out of evaluations, regardless of their evaluation's truth, which needs to happen if we're to recognize the status of our premises. It would be improper to just wave away "bad" emotions you "shouldn't" have. Sometimes, the premises are non-conceptual, so it's a bit more complicated than treating all emotions as caused by only thought defined as reasoning. In other words, there are a some borderline cases for some emotions, maybe for something like panic.

    Yes, it's bad if emotions come out of, say, social metaphysics, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the emotion or repress it.

    Tenderly, I'll re-title it, just don't know what to call it yet.

    This does nothing to break what I've said (which _is_ Objectivism), all you've accomplished here is to put all of your misunderstandings in one place.  Check YOUR premises.  Though you have TWO correct statements in there, how you arrived at them is wrong.  I am finished here.

  • Create New...