Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

KyaryPamyu

Regulars
  • Posts

    190
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    26

Posts posted by KyaryPamyu

  1. "Imagine the whole of Nature stretched blooming at my feet; a line of blue, misty hills encompassed the horizon in the east; the sun was sinking in the west; all Nature's temple lay before our enchanted eyes. Like Thetis, I could have flown down, and sunk into those flowery rivers. [...] At length, when the sun had just set, a mass of blossoming spring roses came floating up out of the dying rays - the tops of the mountains glowing, the woods all aflame - and illimitable Nature melted into soft rosy tints; and as I was gazing into this ocean of purple, [...] all stood enchanted before me, and sweetly smiled at me." Robert Schumann, from a letter to a friend, dated Aug. 29, 1827

    If all life were to disappear off the face of the earth, would beauty still exist? Obviously not. Beauty is an evaluation, made by a mind whose nature allows it to experience the phenomenon of beauty. Thus, one philosopher concludes: "beauty does not actually exist in the world. When the Poet says that roses are beautiful, he is not referring to something that exists out there. He describes a subjective mental construct. To him, either beauty exists out there in the world, just like trees and stars do, or it only exists in man's mind. Only non-mental things are real, and to be of a mental nature automatically means to not have reality or substance. 

    But all mental experiences - whether we refer to sensory form, beauty, intuition, freedom, the grasp of poetic allegory - are real, as real as trees and mountains and stars. Man comes to know them through the ostensive process that stands at the base of all knowledge: direct experience. While his consciousness provides him with valid information about the world, he cannot ever step outside of consciousness. Every experience that he goes through during the span of his life is an experience of consciousness, but for some reason, that dimension has no reality for the philosopher. And nothing is more dangerous for a man's proper functioning than to doubt or deny the validity of his own consciousness.

    According to our philosopher, only descriptive statements, such as "Today is raining", can be factual. As soon as we enter the realm of consciousness, we aren't talking about reality anymore - we venture into the world of subjective experience. But man's mental faculties are not separate from nature, they are as much a part of it as everything else. The Poet, then, is right. When the Poet's consciousness encounters roses, a real and distinct phenomenon of consciousness occurs. The rose, as perceived and evaluated by a particular man, is beautiful. Or, certain types of daffodils, as perceived by a specific kind of consciousness, are yellow. And further, if life has identity, then its chemical origin and mechanism must be similar on every planet that can give rise to life. And if there are life forms on other planets, their emotions (or equivalent faculties) probably pertain to the exact same categories as earth's animals possess: fear of threats, desire for values, pain, pleasure and so on. If existence is identity, evaluations are not arbitrary.

    Our philosopher prides himself in doing whatever he can to perceive reality as it really is, without tainting it with his own mental nature. And in doing so, he's willfully suffocating his consciousness. He represses his spontaneous emotional reactions, intuitions and connotative associations. He struggles to express himself in the driest, most 'objective' way possible - after all, he equates the evaluative with the unreal.

    For each category of value, there are countless options that are just as good as the others - in fact, some tastes and preferences might be randomly shaped by childhood experiences or determined by genetic differences. And this makes the philosopher feel that his personal infrastructure of chosen values is a subjective construct. Feeling emotionally invested into any such infrastructure would mean non-objectivity, an evasion of the arbitrary nature of his choices. Consequently, life to him is just a play, a pretense. In his attempts at making objective choices, he is not aware that objectivity encompasses the entire context - including his psychological makeup and what is possible to him in a world that has identity.

    When our philosopher discovered that volition can shape man's character and psychology, he formed the unchecked premise that his mind and subconscious do not have a specific nature at all - that they are identity-less and entirely shaped by the self (or the environment). He thinks that there is no need to pay much attention to his own consciousness, because going through a series of proper conceptual and physical motions will eventually culminate in involuntary happiness and conscious-subconscious harmony. In doing so, he misses heaps of important and ostensively available details about himself, information that can be known only by direct introspection.

    One of the philosopher's contemporaries and friends is a German Idealist. His eccentric and poetically-minded friend believes that reality is a mental construct. To him, Nature's objects, the mind’s abstractions and his evaluative emotional experiences are all equally real and spring from the same source: a supernal productive imagination. Though his philosophy is factually wrong, he is much happier than the first philosopher, as his characteristic way of facing life seems to suggest. So, is it true that ignorance is bliss? If there is no God, immortality or primacy of consciousness, doesn't that make reality... stale? A pointless cycle of survival and reproduction? Our first philosopher objects: you can have all of these things without indulging in mystic fantasies. But in truth, deep down he doesn't feel that this is true. He does feel that his existence is a bit dry and pointless.

    A man's beliefs about the world shape the way he perceives his environment. His philosophy doesn't affect the raw sensory data, but it does control how he relates to it, what he experiences in his mind's eye. It's not a surprise, then, that when the two philosophers took a stroll through a nearby forest and discussed metaphysics at length, they saw the forest in completely different ways - even though their eyes and minds took in the same sensory data. If we tried to illustrate what went on in their mind's eye, the result would probably look something like this:

    d.jpg.27344b2396ab3bb74c3d01cddb6a3ef3.jpg

    The first philosopher saw a lifeless chunk of matter. The second philosopher saw Poetry made visible. Their subconsciously integrated and automated philosophy has stylized their consciousness, imbuing objects with connotative meaning, giving Nature beauty and staleness; it made the two men focus on certain aspects that affirmed their own worldview, while ignoring the aspects that seemed to contradict it. The two quintessential preconditions of human happiness are a world that is auspicious to joy, and an exalted view of man's nature. And for some reason, our first philosopher feels that the world is stale and pointless, while the second philosopher is intoxicated by it.

    Philosophy and religion are important and invaluable sources of information about human psychology. A lot of philosophical systems distort the truth not because man is blind to ostensively self-evident axioms; in truth, a lot of people are afraid that they'll end up like our first philosopher. They create systems that rationalize what they want to be true, worlds in which they intuitively feel they would be happy in. The proper attitude is not to shun those philosophies - but to study them, and learn which human needs are so compelling that they end up tempting people to discard the 'unpleasant truth'.

    A German Idealist proposes an organic system of Nature, where everything (including inanimate matter) is alive, and all concrete existence is an expression of Self's productive imagination. Why is that appealing to him? Because if everything is a part of him, he is not a tiny little man anymore - he is an all-powerful creative intelligence striving for self-awareness by objectifying himself to himself. This prospect makes his own self-esteem and view of man go up. If what he previously thought of as dead matter is actually organic in some way, he acquires a feeling of kinship between him and the entire Universe. If everything in existence strives for the same goal, the universe ceases to appear frightening or alien to him - it takes on the mantle of a benevolent and even exotic or elevated realm. If pleasure has a forbidden quality to it, values seem to become more tantalizing than if no mind-body breach existed. If the entirety of the universe and human life can be rationalistically deduced and contained by a crow-friendly system, he is at an advantage - because reason is his means of knowledge, and he longs for that type of crystal-clear and unshakably certain conceptual guidance - his need of self-esteem is again peeking through the curtain.

    What about religion? Man's nature as an integrator pushes him to unify his life into infrastructures such as culture, subculture and religion, infrastructures that integrate most or all aspects of his life (including ethics and very identifiable ways of dressing and behaving) into single, coherent systems. And the prevailing epistemological errors? Some philosophers intuitively feel that a world in which concepts merely classify the world - instead of shaping it – would mean that the nature of the external world is sharply different from the way their own consciousness is naturally built. They perceive a threat to the potency of their consciousness - to their self-esteem. And wouldn't it be nicer if Nature actually was as we perceived it, if sensory form was a myth? That would certainly give objective validity to what goes on in one's inner eye. Man would never have to doubt the metaphysical validity of his richly evaluative experience.

    A wrong system of philosophy can comfort man in the short-term, but will ultimately lead to existential and psychological turmoil. And a largely correct system of philosophy that was not properly integrated into his mind, can lead to worldly success, but also to the inability to enjoy that success. As man's nature dictates, if he implicitly believes and feels that the truth clashes with the requirements of his life or consciousness, truth will become his enemy.

    The solution is to identify and correct those faulty integrations, the ones that made the first philosopher discard, among others, the realm of poetry and emotional investment. In poetry, metaphor does not equal non-objectivity - poetic language describes facts of reality, as grasped by a human mind that relates everything to his own life, a consciousness that needs to clarify meaning by comparisons to other objects to which he attaches symbolic meaning. A proper human consciousness is staunchly anthropocentric. In the case of emotional investment, optionality does not equal the arbitrary. The nature of man and the universe dictates that he must achieve and settle for what is, to his current knowledge, the absolute best he can get. If he believes that 'everything could have been different', he is factually wrong - he can only live one life, not an unspecified number of parallel existences. And he is weakening his will to live, because he can't wantonly dive into the pond of Life while not being fully convinced that his particular values allow him to actually make the most out of his existence. Equally important is the issue of human greatness. Does he think it actually exists in reality? Or are humans just cavemen with high pretensions?

    The truth-loving philosopher does not need to make peace with the staleness of the world. After all, he lives in the exact same universe as his life-loving friend, and if the German Idealist can be happy, he can be happier than him. To unlock the beauty of the world, he must award the same reality to his own inner world as he does to the external world. He must give free reign to the natural realm of his emotions, inclinations, fears, desires, intuitions, yearnings. In every moment and issue of his life, he must be focused not only on growing and optimizing his practical excellence, but also on making the most out of his inner experience.

    After a full system of philosophy, psychology is the most crucial science that man must develop and master if he is to be fully guided in his life. He must understand the psychological causes of joy in all of its myriad forms: love, excitement, importance, luxury, humor, the Sublime, affection, curiosity, the exotic, the unusual, the cool, the beautiful, the idealized - as well as the nature of personal taste. In doing so, he will eventually tie them back to the two fundamental preconditions of happiness: the feeling that the universe is auspicious, and that man is an exalted being.

    "Miss Rand used to be a strong advocate of what she called 'the pleasure-purpose principle.' She meant the idea that on any level, whether we're talking about thought or action, you cannot function without a purpose that brings you pleasure, something you want to achieve, that you enjoy achieving. You can see this in an everyday example in the contrast between getting up on a day when there's something that you like [...] as against that kind of gray, dragging yourself through some dutiful routine, which can only go on for a limited period of time, after which you either end up giving up action and giving up generally, or else you say, 'I can't stand philosophy,' and you become an emotionalist. The point here is that pleasure - and we mean here personal pleasure, personal interests, your likes and dislikes - is essential to your functioning, in action and in thought". Leonard Peikoff, Understanding Objectivism: Lecture Ten

    "Learn to be at home and well acquainted - I would almost say, be on intimate terms with your emotions. [...] After you've become acquainted with yourself emotionally, when you no longer have any great mysteries to yourself, then you can start to identify your sense of life. And the best - perhaps the only way to identify it - is by observing your own reactions to art." Ayn Rand, 1974 Q&A session

    "How comes it that, to every tolerably cultivated taste, imitations of the so-called Actual, even though carried to deception, appear in the last degree untrue - nay, produce the impression of spectres; whilst a work in which the idea is predominant strikes us with the full force of truth, conveying us then only to the genuinely actual world?" F. W. J. Schelling - On the Relation of the Plastic Arts to Nature (speech on the celebration of the 12th October, 1807, as the Name-Day of the King of Bavaria)

    The most important insight that a rational philosophy can give you is this: the profound efficacy of consciousness. Here, I am not confining myself to the ability to acquire objective knowledge. I am referring to the whole of human consciousness, including, among others, the perceptual, conceptual, subconscious, evaluative and emotional levels.

    Life is not a series of empty abstractions and standards of value. Abstractions stand for a rich symphony of specific values and content. Man's god is set by his nature: Joy - or survival, which cannot be legitimately sundered from Joy. His Religion is his particular value infrastructure, his love for everything that he strives to live here on earth. And his philosophy and heroes are the signposts that guide his footsteps.

  2. A similar question came up during a Q&A session of the 1976 Objectivism course. I am quoting the exerpt bellow:

    Quote

     

    Q. I once took a philosophy course in which the professor said that the Law of Identity is tautological. It doesn't reveal any information about reality. What is meant by this?

    A. A tautology is a statement which says the same thing. It's predicate is the same as the subject. A brother is a male. A male sibling is male, would be a tautology. A is A is a tautology. It is part of the post Kantian mystic in philosophy that tautology says nothing about reality. There is no base for that view whatever. I cover it in The Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy in that article. It's a form of that error, which I alluded to briefly in the lectures. I will not repeat it here in the answer, except simply to say that according to Objectivism all knowledge is ultimately tautological, because a concept stands for and includes every fact about its reference. So, whenever you say, a man has two legs, man includes everything that is true of him, including that he has two legs. This I elaborate in my article on The Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy. This is particularly a Kantian method of attacking logic.

     

     

  3. 13 hours ago, 2046 said:

    In fact, I think the requirements of flourishing demand of us to accept risks, certainly infitessimal (and sometimes more) to our survival.

    I think this smuggles in the premise that pursuing survival (the 'pure' type) would never require you to temporarily diminish your momentary wellbeing for the sake of increased survival later on. In reality, pursuing survival pretty much requires you to incur 'hits' to your momentary survival. As the norm, I might add.

    A while ago I heard an anecdote by Harry Binswanger in which Ayn Rand was arguing with somebody who denied the law of Identity (A=A) on the grounds that a moving object has no particular spatial position. Every time you look at the object, it is in a different position, so where is it? Ayn Rand replied that the particular object isn't anywhere, it is in transition. Its identity is that it is changing its location.

    I think that the same thing can be applied to ethics. In fact, it was captured by Rand in her definition of life: 'A process of self-sustaining, self-generated action'. While it may appear a stationary definition, it is exactly the opposite. Survival is not merely a process of staying alive - it is a constant, never ending departure from your current position to a better state. This fact seems to have a expression in the way our brains are made: once you get where you want, you always have to move higher and higher, because you become progressively desensitized to what you currently have. If you suddenly find yourself without intellectual challenge, or doing the same things over and over, you become bored out of your mind. A lot of  enjoyment is derived from the process of moving forward itself, from gaining values as well as enjoying values.

    Just to be clear, I agree with SL (and even Kelley) that flourishing is not the goal of life. To sunder the two is to ignore the hierarchy: life -> value -> survival -> moving forward (flourshing). Ayn Rand understood survival to be a state of transition from a lower state of robustness to a higher one. Death is also a state of transition, which is why you can't judge somebody's course by the claim that he is 'happy'. If his happiness is a slow march into the Lion's den, he's wilfully undergoing a process of slow death, no matter how well he tends to his physical health in the meantime.

    The excessive prudence that the' survivalist' displays is the result of his Gryllsian view of survival. He don't see the fact that life is actually a broad timeline filled with factors that cannot be separated from each other. Flourishers, on the other hand, tend to speak on the unstated, or unidentified premise that reality is full of things that conflict with survival while enabling flourishing. The flourishing-survival dichotomy is similar to the classical variants of the mind-body break: love vs sex, percepts vs. concepts. In reality, the thrill seeking & cool things that flourishers say they want to do (insteading of being tied to the 'boring' survivalist view) ARE what survival entails. A lack of pleasure and excitement is anti-life in the sense that it moves you away from survival and proper functioning.  

    Rand captured this in the virtue of Pride: a person of unsundered rationality not only has the best life possible to him at any given moment in time, but he's also necessarily in a state of 'transition' to even higher self-esteem, wealth, health etc. Stilness means death, in the sense that every time somebody tries to remain where he already is ('freezing' his survival in place), he is actively hurting his survival, not maintaining it. In the example above, the hero does not gain five years of life by giving up his dream. Instead, he becomes spiritualy diseased.

    A person who shortens his life for a fuller experience does not forfeit survival, he acts exclusively on the principle of survival. This is not a negation of A=A. Ayn Rand was clear that the standard of value is survival as a specific kind of being.

    Survival as man does not mean merely longevity. It means pleasure, challenge, hobbies, love, art, friendship, constantly moving forward and other factors relevant to what he is. The values that man needs qua man are his actual means to longevity. A lot of people turn longevity into a contextless standard and then proceed to seek it in ways that not only hurts their own goal, but makes them survive not as men, but as diseased forms of life. Ayn Rand used the term 'metaphysical monstruosity' in Galt's Speech, and gave the example of a bird struggling to break its own wings, or a plant trying to destroy its own roots. So we can identfiy yet another dichotomy here: the longevity vs identity dichotomy. 

    I think Rand would have agreed with me, since she put some examples in her books. For example, the before-mention Galt suicide threat, which appears in the same book as Galt's speech. Surely she must have counted on the fact that Galt's actions would shed some context on her abstract presentation. Galt is not choosing between death (suicide) and survival. He is choosing between two different types of death: by slow torture, or instantaneous. Galt is not motivated by any flourishing-survival dichotomy. His best use of reason told him that he has legitimate grounds to be 100% convinced that his life would become a living embodiment of precisely the thing that his own ethical code condemned. So paradoxically, his suicide over Dagny was a statement of a moral choice, in total agreement with survival qua man.

    There are legitimate cases where a change to a different course really isn't possible. Let's look at Galt. He longed for Dagny for a decade, a process that slowly imprinted her into his psyche as each day passed. Every time he had trouble getting motivated, he used her as fuel. He watched her go into the beds of two men he admired. He then got her, but.. what if she died at the hands of a bunch of petty people that represent what he despises the most? 10 years of striving and emotional investment, negated in an instant. A decade of his life, wasted. He probably understood the repercussions on his psychology that her death would have caused. He would lose desire to do anything, no matter how heroically he'd try to get on track. Implying he then wasted 5 more years in depression, and that eventually his desire for women returned, what competiton would there be? If another mercilessly-rational woman with the brains and character to build the John Galt line in a collapsing country was around, he would have known about her. For him, it's either the vice-president or nothing. It would haunt him forever. So, contra SL, I would say that sometimes, but not always, 'pursuing a different dream' can be anti-life. 

    I will go on a limb and say that the pure survivalist, Kelley-type position is really the absolute same as the flourisher position, when all of the factors are brought into question. The most ardent Flourisher is actually the most ardent, pure and bare-bones Survivalist. And all 'self-actualization'-based ethical systems are useless unless people understand that self-actualization is not an intrinsic end in itself, but the effect, the natural result of a survivalist ethics. The alternative is accidentaly pursuing 'self-actualization' in a way that goes against its root (survival), which leads to consequences that are too obvious to mention. The self-realization vs survival dichotomy.

  4. 19 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    Happiness is a means to an end. Man's proper ultimate end is his own survival. It is proper, therefore, to value happiness insofar as it functions as a fuel, to help one to survive, and no more than that.

    I'll give it a try (speaking as myself). Happiness is an emotional state accompanying the periods of time when things are going well for you, existentially and psychologically. It would be a contradiction in terms to say that happiness is a means to survival, since in the causal chain, happiness is the result of survival. Legitimate happiness cannot ever be in conflict with (or periclitate) survival, period.

    One of the major virtues of the Objectivist ethics is that it respects the epistemological principle of context. You cannot make valid ethical judgements, unless 1). you hold the entire lifespan in mind, and 2). you hold the entire hierarchy of your (proper) values in mind. In other words, Objectivism is not concerned with half of a lifespan, or with three quarters of it, or with a single year of it. And it recognizes that there are no isolated facts, that nothing can ever happen outside of a context. The need to sacrifice lower values in order to pursue higher values is metaphysicaly inherent in the universe. Time is finite, so you're bound to make compromises upon compromises in order to make all of your values play togheter well. Not all pain is wrong, and not all 'happiness' is right.

    That you are happy now might be irrelevant - your next 10 years of happiness might lead to disastruous consequences later on, consequences that you cannot justify to your own self. If you endure suffering right now, your effort might lead to a bright future that will be worth every single moment of misery that you endured. How are you to decide? The full context. In some cases, it is right to shorten your lifespan. In some, it is outright insane. Some compromises are worth it, some aren't.

    Quote

    Our Hero has been given the opportunity to pursue his life-long dream, which he expects to bring immense happiness. The gotcha is that the experts tell him it'll likely cut five years off his life.

    Let's assume that the Hero's dream is some kind of career. There are legitimate situations where you might love something so intensely (maybe the love became part of your psyche during your formative childhood years) that you simply can't find a replacement, no matter how long and conscientiously you try.

    Let's do some horizontal integration and scan for other factors. Quitting his dream in order to live five years longer will not make the Hero live five years longer. The Hero will have to earn a living. If he doesn't resent his new job for always reminding him of his compromise, he will spend around 1850 hours every year doing something that will never give him the same intellectual and spiritual fulfillment that his other job would have given him. His self esteem will run into the ground. His personal sense of identity will suffer, since he can't identity with the job he truly loves. His recreation will become an escape, not a complement and reward for his achievements. He probably won't have the same types of friends or lovers he would have if he had the other job. Your central purpose is a sensitive subject, since it controls an exceptionaly vast array of things in your life.

    When a person acts immoraly, a chain of factors start to domino into every aspect of his existential and psychological situation. Which in time corrodes his desire to live, as well as his physical and mental health. After many years, the pain might become too great, and the hero might say: 'I could have lived the best life possible to me. Yet, I am here - by my own fault'. If the pain overrides his rationalist/dutiful approach to ethics, he might find himself drinking a lot and escaping into the antipodes of his mind via certain substances - which will further speed up his demise. 

    When people mention survival, they do not actually refer to survival. Their definition is limited to the Bear Grylls type of context where you eat bugs to remain alive for yet another day. If staying alive was the pupose of ethics, everyone in the world right now is a master of the Objectivist ethics. Things change if you expand 'survival' to include the best possible functioning and resillience to adverse conditions, taking in consideration both the mind and the body. When the Hero will understand that each action he takes will get him either closer, or further away from that state, he will know what to do.

  5. On 14.09.2017 at 10:00 PM, Regi F. said:

    the other unpublished in her Journal

     

    7 hours ago, Regi F. said:

    Why not form your own ideas using your own reason examining what Rand herself wrote

    Randy,

    Have you read her own journal entry for September 18, 1943? It's titled Theorem I: The Basic Alternative.

    As I said above, to my knowledge the claims of those 'philosophical enemies' of Rand are accurate.

  6. 4 hours ago, Regi F. said:

    I do not agree with your analysis of Rand's ethical development, however.

    It is not my own analysis, but to my knowledge it is accurate. You can read more about it in an article called Ayn Rand’s Ethics - From The Fountainhead to Atlas Shrugged by Darryl Wright.

    A general discussion of her evolving view of the virtues can also be found on page 12 of this exerpt.

  7. 31 minutes ago, Kenny Davis said:

    Seems to be saying that man's epistemological method of perceiving that which exists, doesn't exist.

    Abstractions point to things in reality, but they are not the things that they point out to. For example, the concept 'cat' is not a cat - it is a mental entity.

    The concept 'abstraction' is an abstraction of the process of abstraction. It points to the method, but it is not the method itself. The concept and the process it refers to are separate. 

    Abstractions exist - as mental entities. Outside of your head, there are only the concretes that your abstractions are meant to classify. For example, you cannot point your finger to 'mammal' or 'art', only to specific instances - such as a cow or a painting.

  8. 2 hours ago, Regi F. said:

    The published list of virtues includes: Reason, Purpose, Self-Esteem

    These three are actually the values that make up the Objectivist code of ethics. In The Objectivist Ethics, these values are related to the virtues as follows:

    Productiveness corresponds to Purpose

    Pride corresponds to Self-Esteem

    Rationality, Honesty, Independence, Integrity and Justice correspond to Reason

    2 hours ago, Regi F. said:

    The unpublished list of virtues includes: Integrity [which Rand described as, "the first, greatest and noblest of all virtues"], Courage, Honesty, Honor, Self-confidence, Strength, Justice, Wisdom, and Self-respect.

    At the time she wrote that list, she considered Independence to be the primary virtue - the others beings aspects of it. 

    Later, she developed her mature ethical theory, which states that you can only pursue your self interest in consonance with reality - not it every way that might sound right to you. Therefore, the primary (and only) real virtue becomes rationality, and the others, including idependence, become aspects of rationality - of acting in consonance with reality.

    After quickly scanning the list above, courage and strenght are aspects of Integrity. Honor, self-confidence & self-respect are aspects of Pride. Wisdom is a result of being rational.

    According to Peikoff in his Advanced Seminars on OPAR, Rand didn't claim that her list of virtues was complete. She was open to additions as long as somebody could prove that something was a virtue. Based on her own life experience, she never discovered another principle that was a genuine virtue.

  9. 8 hours ago, Eiuol said:

    This whole tangent was about if "exist" is an action, and I say yes.

    Is existing a type of action, the same way rolling, flowing, walking and exploding is? In this case, the phenomenon of action must exist before anything engages in the specific action of existing.

    If you see 'it exists' not as an action, but as information about something - this cookie is brown, it's made of sugar, it exists (you're not bluffling, there's actually a cookie), then we're on the same page.

    Or perhaps you're thinking about living organisms, which act in a goal-directed way in order to preserve their life. But is a cookie also engaged in the action of existing?

  10. 11 hours ago, Eiuol said:

    Existence exists isn't one concept repeated - it is two separate concepts.

    'Existence' is a collective noun, and 'exists' is an adjective, not a verb. As in: existence is vast, existence is varied, existence is real, existence exists.

    11 hours ago, Eiuol said:

    Existence, i.e., all that is, is a different concept than "to exist".

    In the dictionary, 'exist' is classified as a verb. Do you also see it as a verb?

  11. 8 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

    to exist also means to act.

    Yes, agreed.

    10 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

    there are things doing existing

    This is not the same thing at all.

    Existing is not an action or quality, it is a concept meant to help us distinguish between what is actually out there and what isn't.

    If you use existence to refer to that which is (as opposed to that which isn't), existence is every entity, every trait, every action, every doing. You don't do existing. Existence is the doing.

    To see what I mean more clearly, contrast 'existence is an action' with 'existence is the action' - substituting 'action' with any specific kind of action that you can think of.

  12. 7 hours ago, Eiuol said:

    Existing is an aspect of a thing's identity

    Existing is not an aspect of a thing's identity. By making this claim, you are starting with something  existing (identity) and then you're adding to it an extra feature, 'existing,' to complement its other features.

    Existence is not an action, a property or a feature, it is the action, property or feature - and anything else that constitutes the universe. Existence is identity.

    When you say that something doesn't exist, you don't mean that something (existing in a state of existential limbo) is not engaged in the action of existing. What you mean is that it actually isn't there.

    7 hours ago, Eiuol said:

    your reasoning suggests that, metaphysically speaking, existing, acting, and identity are not simultaneous.

    Existing, acting and identity are abstractions. They can only be separated by a conceptual mind, as they are simultaneous metaphysically.

  13. 36 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

    existing/being is an action.

    This reminds me of the question, 'why is there something, rather than nothing?'.

    Suppose you answered, 'because of factor X'. But if factor X exists, you have not answered anything, because you're trying to figure out what caused everything that exists - including factor X.

    Nothing precedes existence. Before we philosophize about action, it must first exist.

     

     

  14. 10 hours ago, Eiuol said:

    You are saying that there are first things that exist that don't necessarily act.

    Nope. I didn't even hint at such an idea. What I said is that existing is not a type of action; rather, action is a type phenomenon that exists.

    Things change, move around and interact with each other. Based on this observation, you can form concepts such as movement, interaction etc., and unite them under the concept action. But actions are not platonic entites, they are aspects of a thing's identity. 

    Actions are actions of things that exist. Existing is not an action, it is the precondition of action.

  15. 4 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

    Is "Existing" an action?

    No. If 'existing' was a type of action, actions would hold metaphysical primacy. In other words, first there would be the platonic form of action, from which its numerous manifestations (including 'existing') would spring.

    But actions can't have metaphysical primacy. Let's say for a moment that existing is a type of action. But what is the most fundamental thing you can say about action? That it exists

    Entities that exist, act. Entities that do not exist, do not act.

  16. 23 hours ago, dadmonson said:

    Productivity/Purposefulness

    Integrate everything you do into a seamless whole. David Allen's GTD methodology is a great way to do this. Amy Peikoff did an interview with Dave Allen, if you're interested you can listen to it here.

    Always set specific work goals,  such as: 'I want to find out how to do X in less time and with better results'.

    23 hours ago, dadmonson said:

    Honesty

    Not lying to yourself about where you are in relation to your goals. If applicable, don't be afraid to say 'I'm not where I want to be', or 'I have a long way to go'.

    Don't pretend to like things that you don't. For example, if a friend wants to discuss a movie you dislike, simply tell him that it's not your kind of thing, and change the topic. 

    23 hours ago, dadmonson said:

    Independence

    Strive to achieve a real understanding of the principles that you practice regularly, even if they were learned from other people. You can't make full use of a piece of information unless you know exactly what it refers to and why it's true.

    23 hours ago, dadmonson said:

    integrity

    Form principles for your work, your romantic life, your thinking etc. and follow them. This virtue refers to all principles, not just moral ones. Check this post to learn how to form good principles.

    Stick to rational principles, even when it's hard. Weakness of will is weakness of vision; if you don't feel like respecting a principle that you know is true, remind yourself of the consequences that will follow if you break it. "I'm not brave enough to be a coward" - Ayn Rand

    Pride

    Don't create unearned guilt by blaming yourself for unintentional mistakes. Learn from them & move on.

    The Ben Franklin exercise that you mentioned.

    Seek the best in anything. Make a list of values (work, love, art, food, health etc.) and go over it daily/weekly. As yourself, 'how can I improve the quality of this area?'. In art, it might mean creating a reading list or a watchlist. In love, picking out some special lingerie for your kindred soul. In health, choosing to use the stairs instead of the elevator.

  17. 13 minutes ago, DonAthos said:

    Yet I also fear that there seems to be more interest in lining up definitions, and adherence to quotes (or dogma), than an attempt to investigate the reality of what we are meant to be discussing.

    Readers may decide for themselves.

    25 minutes ago, DonAthos said:

    Thank you for the conversation.

    Thanks, you made some interesting points.

  18. 1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    I would rather say that the answer ultimately lies in reality.

    "The answer lies in her writings", as in: the answer to what her actual views on philosophy were can be found in her written material. As far as I know, she disagreed that psychology should be part of philosophy.

    1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    But do you think the sculptor found beauty there, too? That he meant to convey some of that beauty through his work?

    People sometimes use 'beautiful' when they mean that something is inspiring. They associate pleasant feelings with beauty. By this token, you can actually refer to anything you like as 'beautiful', even though somebody else with different values might look at those things and have no idea what you're talking about.

    1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    Is that experience, in originally observing the discus thrower -- something, I would argue, possibly akin to what a later museum-goer might experience in gazing upon the statue he in fact subsequently sculpted -- important, such that it is worthy of philosophical examination?

    Of course it is. It's a type of emotional fuel, as discussed early. That feeling of love for existence, or 'metaphysical joy' as Rand would call it, can be triggered by just about anything you like or pleases you. Which makes this type of thing a very broad category, just like 'physical exercise' is in relation to athletics, sex and foot-tapping.

    Bottomline: beauty is everywhere. Physical exercise is everywhere. Bundling all beautiful/inspiring things togheter muddles the differences between, for example, plot construction, characterization, drug-induced ecstacy, cuteness of kids and animals, becoming aware of the vastness of the universe, sexually tantalizing women's clothing/attitudes etc.

    Everything in the universe is interconnected, and every piece of knowledge has implications for countless other fields. But some cathegories are simply too broad to be of any practical use, except as broad descriptive terms. Imagine opening a fitness manual and seeing: pushups, squats, walk to the store, climb the stairs, have sex, dance to music, run from your fangirls, play volleyball.

  19. 5 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    Yet I would again point to various philosophers and artists past and present, the editors of Wikipedia, the creators of this forum (and its categorization), for whom, I surmise, it was not so difficult to see the relationship between aesthetics, beauty and art at which I "grope."

    I see certain similarities between atheltics, sex, and foot-tapping. I don't think it's terribly controversial to put them into a category called 'physical exercise'. History would probably agree. Yet this would still mean uniting them on the basis of non-essentials. 

    5 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    All of man's actions, mental or physical, psychological or existential. So yes, based on my reading, I believe psychology is meant to be covered.

    The answer ultimately lies in her writings. For now we'll have to agree to disagree. 

  20. 4 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    "Definition" is important, but it does not have to be the first step in concept formation

    Well, yeah. I didn't request one or implied that it can be created at this stage. But without such a definitition it's tricky to see what you're hinting at/groping for. The way I see it, the similarities between beauty,  the fine arts and inspirational experiences are there, but they seem too shallow to form a category.

    4 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    But if Rand is right that philosophy provides a comprehensive view of life, and if Objectivism is a full philosophical system as has been claimed

    Comprehensive does not mean encyclopedic, otherwise her system would also include psychology as a branch (among other things). The study of beauty relies heavily on psychology, so it's not pure philosophy. 

    Here's a directly related quote by Rand:

    Quote

    The task of philosophy is to provide man with a comprehensive view of life. This view serves as a base, a frame of reference, for all his actions, mental or physical, psychological or existential. This view tells him the nature of the universe with which he has to deal (metaphysics); the means by which he is to deal with it, i.e., the means of acquiring knowledge (epistemology); the standards by which he is to choose his goals and values, in regard to his own life and character (ethics)—and in regard to society (politics); the means of concretizing this view is given to him by esthetics.

    (“The Chickens’ Homecoming,” Return of the Primitive: The Anti-Industrial Revolution, p. 45). Bold mine.

    And another one:

    Quote

    Philosophy studies the fundamental nature of existence, of man, and of man’s relationship to existence. As against the special sciences, which deal only with particular aspects, philosophy deals with those aspects of the universe which pertain to everything that exists. In the realm of cognition, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible.

    (“Philosophy: Who Needs It,” Philosophy: Who Needs It, 2). Italics in original.

    Beauty is to aesthetics (Rand's use of the term) what physical exercise is to ethics. They can't be sundered. But ethics and aesthetics are pure philosophy, while exercise and beauty are not.

  21. 9 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    If you're saying that the purpose of art isn't to create beauty, I'd agree; but then, I am not saying that the purpose of art is to create beauty. I'm saying that the study of beauty is part of aesthetics, just as the study of fine arts is part of (but not the whole of) aesthetics.

    It all boils down to how you define aesthetics.

    If you're using aesthetics to mean 'the beautiful', then subsuming beauty and the fine arts into a single category is out of the question. Let's assume for a moment that beauty is, indeed, crucial to the fine arts. Now let's draw a parralel. "Baking a cake (fine arts) requires flour (beauty). It's not the only ingredient that goes into a cake, but it's an important, foundational one. Therefore, cakes and flour are both part of the wider field, flour studies. They are related much too tightly. The study of flour production (or of its composition) is only part of the overall subject of flour, just as the study of baking cakes is part of (but not the whole of) the subject of flour".

    However, if you're using your suggested wider meaning of 'aesthetics', one that subsumes beauty and inspirational experiences, subsuming art and beauty could work. But for the moment you haven't given a genus and differentia, so I can't argue for or against it. At most, I can only say that I've never thought of sports as being beautiful (and by extension, aesthetically pleasing). I did find some instances to be inspirational. This makes sports share a characteristic with art, even though sports are games and art is, well, art.

    Using aesthetics to refer to beauty is fine. Renaming the fifth branch of Rand's system to 'Art' is also fine. But mixing them up is a stretch. Unless you can succesfully devise and defend a new concept of aesthetics.

  22. 1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    But do you see no relationship in reality between "beauty" and the fine arts which would justify grouping them together in the first place?

    Maybe an analogy will be helpful.

    The principles of fitness teach you how to exercise for maximum benefits, how to avoid workout injuries, what to eat post-workout and so on. Football is a competitive game that makes use of those principles, and can even be considered a type of physical exercise. But the purpose of football isn't to become fit. Football is a competitive game. You're more likely to see people getting fit for professional football, rather than people going into professional football for the sake of becoming fit. 

    1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    No relationship between the decorative arts and fine arts in their use of color and shape and line?

    Color, shape, line and beauty are the building blocks.

    Beauty is generally associated with a sense of harmony. Using patterns is ideal in art for many reasons, including intelligibility, unit-economy, greater appeal etc. A deeper issue would be whether all art should be beautiful. If the artist wants to portray hell on earth, does he need to paint beautifully? 

    1 hour ago, DonAthos said:

    I understand that those who work in some of the fields you've named, like dress design and floral arrangements, must have what I would otherwise call an "aesthetic" sense or ability. Otherwise, shouldn't we expect such disciplines to be strictly utilitarian?

    The benefits of beauty pertain more to consciousness than to the body - but this does not make floral arrangements less 'utilitarian'. 

  23. 7 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    I'm a touch confused as to your point here -- perhaps you could clarify?

    The study of beauty would naturaly lead to the discovery of some principles of creating beautiful objects. So you could subsume beauty and the science of beauty into 'aesthetics'. But then you could not also subsume the principles of, for instance, plot construction into this wider category.

    I consider the decorative arts to be crafts, not art. I distinguish between beauty as such, beautiful crafts (such as dress design, flower arrangements) and what is referred to as the fine arts. Restricting 'aesthetics' to the philosophy of art slashes off a great deal of confusion. The common historical usage of 'aesthetics' is precisely where most of the confusions come from.

    7 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    If it is the implication, I do not believe that the primary role of beauty is titillation.

    I know. However, you could argue that the primary purpose of the decorative crafts is the pleasing of the senses. This is why you can't bundle them togheter with the fine arts.

    Aesthetics was not included in Rand's model for comprehensiveness, but because man needs a way to hold that comprehensive view of existence in his mind. Art is blood-related to philosophy in the sense that it concretizes it.

    Beauty, too, is very important, but it's not fundamental enough to include in such a system. But you can have a specialized 'philosophy of beauty', just like we have the philosophy of science, law, education etc.

     

  24. 3 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    With incisive questions like that...

    My interest was piqued when you suggested subsuming art and beauty into a higher concept (I draw a sharp distinction between them). Aesthetics is my life's passion, so feel free to make your ideas heard if you ever develop this point.

    3 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    it makes sense to me that art and beauty have been linked historically and currently. They do appear to me to go hand in hand.

    They certainly do go hand in hand. But there's an important distinction to make, between the decorative arts and the fine arts. The first category is concerned with the creation of beautiful objects, while the second one uses beauty only as one means of effectively concretizing the abstract meaning of an artwork. 'Aesthetics' would subsume beauty and the theory behind the decorative arts, but not the whole of the fine arts.

    3 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    In your earlier post, you'd described certain "metaphysical experiences." And I agree that these are metaphysical experiences, in the sense of being real, but not that the study of beauty belongs to Metaphysics, as such.

    Objectivists typicaly use 'metaphysical experience' to denote an experience that is an end in itself and pertains to reality as a whole. According to Peikoff, this would include happiness, art, sports, sex and self-esteem (see section 6 if interested).

    3 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    I have found myself thinking of "aesthetics" as being... well, sort of my relationship to the world. How I identify with things that are outside of the self.

    The closest thing I can think of is the way in which integrating certain elements into a whole seems to create a mini-infrastructure. For example, jazz, dream-pop and Viennese waltz appear to have a very specific identity, even though all three of them are examples of music. Goths, punks, businessmen and bohemian artists are all men, but they seem to be vastly different from each other due to their stereotypical way of relating to things. Perhaps you are refering to some kind of personal/individual ethos?

    3 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    I believe that they find their most natural home together, under "aesthetics," for the reasons given above.

    Rand's approach was that, apart from a view of the universe, a method of knowledge and a code of ethical and political values, Art is the only need of man within the province of pure philosophy. For her, the primary function of art is not to titillate the senses, but to help people hold in mind the massive context that underlies their daily existence. A study of beauty as such would rely heavily on psychology; aesthetics would be concerned only with establishing how to make use of that knowledge, i.e. use it to form aesthetic principles.

  25. 2 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    I agree that "beauty" subsumes all instances of beauty, but I don't know why "aesthetics" should refer exclusively to the field of art. In my opinion, aesthetics may well encompass both "art" and "beauty." (And other things besides.)

    How would you define a concept of 'aesthetics' that subsumes - among other things - beauty, art, design and displays of efficacy? The only common denominator that comes to my mind is that all of them can be metaphysical or inspirational. If such a concept does exist, it would be necessary to give another name to the specialized study of art. 

    The word 'artsy' also comes to my mind, which is usually used to mean that something looks sophisticated or creative. But this wouldn't subsume all of the examples mentioned so far. 

    2 hours ago, DonAthos said:

    Trying to compare art and sport in toto, outside of such specifics, outside of context ("better for whom?" "for what?"), seems to me to be destined to be nothing more than an empty shouting match.

    The possibilities inherent in the field of art - things like variety and power of concretization - outshine those of sports events. This does not mean that people can't prefer sports to art. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that there's no way to establish a winner objectively. 

    As for me, if I was given a choice between one hundred movies and one hundred tennis games, I'd definitely choose the movies.

×
×
  • Create New...