Gentole

Islam is essentially part of the West, since some of it's basic teachings were once developed by early Islamic thinkers (ulama) influenced by the Greek civilization that also had so much influence in the development of the Western Civilization. Not only Al-Farabi, Avicenna and Averroes (Maimonides was jewish?), but also Al-Ghazali and Ibnu Taymiyah, the most prominent and influencing thinker in Sunny's world, were influenced by Greek philosophers. That's why I never see Islam and Christianity as different. So, the problem is not what Islam is or what Christianity is, but what happened in the past that had made one have more influence in one particular place than the other. Here's my new answer to tommyedison's question; Religion is a cultural phenomenon. It can be modified according to it's adherent's cultural predisposition,. that's why there are so many islams (not Islam). And I say, Islam, like Christianity, can also be well developed in the West. Why? In my view, Islam doesn't contradict with rationality (thought it might be irrational) and pays a great respect to the liberty of individuals (though, still, Islam is altruistic). In the second century of Hegira (7-8th CE), Islam was facing a tremendous "fitnah" (test). Islam was no longer unified by the Qur'an and the faith in one God. Caliph Uthman was killed by a Moslem fanatic, and so was Caliph Ali. It was chaotic at the time. Islam was facing it's historical destiny, schism and fragmentation. Because of the schism and fragmentation the moslems were trying to find another way to the truth besides the Qur'an. And one Islamic thinker, i forgot his name, found a new method to guide their faith;reasoning. He called himself Munta'zilah. He held that reason is the only way to comprehend the exisntence of God. That's why, they are also called the Rationalist. The had a great impact in the making of Islamic theology, as it opposed the mainstream of Islamic theology as understood and developed since the time of the prophet. So, I can't explain this shortly. Mmmm...If there were no Crusades, If Andualusia didn't fall in 1492, if the Turkish Sultan didn't have too much harems, and so on, then Islam would occupy half of Europe. As I recall from my reading, Algorithm derives from the name of an Islamic thinker Al-Khawrizmi and Algebra is a corrupted spelling of the word "Al-Jabbar" (one of God's beautiful names in Islam). (I have ordered Ayn Rand's book; The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. It may take two weeks for the shipping)

"La ikraha fid din", the Koran says. (There's no coercion in religion) Let's see what history tells us... There are facts telling us that Islam was spread peacefully through area which was dominated established religions such as Christianity and Buddhism, not by sword but by "dakwah". You can read T.W. Arnold's "The Spread of Islam" or Marshall G. Hodgson's "The Venture of Islam" to get a clearer insight for the statement. I tell you a story of the Islamization in Southeast Asia, specifically Indonesia as largest moslem country in the world. The indigenous religion of the Indonesian people is animism and, to some extent, dynamism. In the fourth century, the Indian spread Hindu-Buddhist teachings and then build Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms such as Tarumanegara and Majapahit. Islam was firstly spread in 14th CE. There are two agent of Islamization in Southeast Asia, one is traders and the other one is Sufis (Islamic saints). No Osama bin Laden! You can read Anthony Reid's books or Azyumardi Azra's doctoral dissertation from Columbia University. Should I send you articles on the spread of Islam, written not only by Europeans but also by the Arabs? I tell you, there are no facts that Islam was spread by sword in Indonesia. If it does exist, then it doesn't mean that Islam is never a religion of peace. Your questions: Why is it then that Islam had more influence than Christianity in the Middle East and Christianity had more influence than Islam in Europe? We have to learn carefully the basic tenets and the subtanstials teaching of Islam and Christianity. And, of course, it takes more than one short writing to do that. My conclusion is the two are alike. Islam and Christiniaty is both scripture religion. The two originate from the same source, Abraham. The word "Assalamualaikum" means "peace be upon you". So? I'm a moslem and i never kill! As it is forbidden. Hell is the reward for killing others without justified reason. Islam is irrational? All religions are irrational. Marx, Heidegger, Sartre and Camus said that! It's just a matter of historical coincidence. That's the answer why Christianity had more influence in Europe. And what is history in a broader sense? Politics! Like all established religion, including Islam, the spread of Christianity in Europe has was always basically political. The church used Roman political power to spread their teaching. And it happened that by the time Islam was about to reach Spain, France and Russia the pendulum of civilization moved to the West. And the moslems lost the war. I do believe that the age of reason, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment are decisive events in history, not only in Europe but in the World also. Read Bernard Lewis' works? Maxime Rodinson's "Europe and the Mystique of Islam"? Edward Said's "Orientalism"? (Edited to retain comments about Islam while removing inflammatory ones about Objectivism. The original text has been moved elsewhere. The author has been informed. softwareNerd)

Thank you very much for the "polite" greeting, Mr. Burgesslau. I must admit, I have never read Ayn Rand's philosophy. I even never heard of her (or him?). But I, for sure, know something about Objetivity. All my life, I have been fighting against it. I am a Great Defender of Subjetivity, or shal I say Subjectivism? About my English, I think I have given you a wrong impression by writing my introductory post like a teenager who hates Rules. I am concerned about grammar. I wrote my thesis, entitled "Looking at the Past: The Changing Paradigm of Modern Indonsian Islamic Historiography", in English. But still, English is my second language. Nobody ever formally taught me English. I learn it from "Growing Pain", "Family Ties", "The Simpsons", Silence of the Lamb", Guns n Roses, Coldplay, etc. So, if this is a forum in which one is expected to write well, then I'll try my best not to confuse you all with my English. And as a journalist, I am much obliged to speak, to write and even to think like the Eropean (the Western people), who have coined, conceptualized and developed the word "Journalism". It's not that I don't appreciate my own cultural values, but it's a must. You people (I'm sorry for using this term), somehow, happen to be more advance in several things. What are those? Let's discuss it in another forum. Hey, I'm a bit offended you criticize my grammar. Is "offended" objective? Oke, I make another confession, it IS bad. But, you do believe that primate can learn, don't you? So, I'll learn from you...and the rest of the participants. :0 It's not that difficult. I just write. Kierkegard? Let's talk about Existentialism. But not now, I got to do my job first. (I'm browsing Ayn Rand in the internet. It's a she or he? And I'm reading the posts here. I'm learning, okay.

I am also 23. It's nice knowing that there's a participant at my age. I'm a bit worried this forum belongs to old beardy professors from university.i graduated from state islamic university, Jakarta. Don't worry, I'm not a militant moslem who likes to kill for the sake of God. I read Kierkegard and existentialism since I was in highschool. And when i was in college i used to visit Dirayarkara School of Philosophy's library.I'm journalist. I practice philosophy. I like to talk about life. A friend of mine offered me forums who like to talk dirty. I hope this is not the place for that.Groovenstein, HI!

I'm a journalist from Indonesia. News is the menu of my berakfast, my lunch and my dinner. I'm joining this forum as i really want to talk about what i see, feel and read everyday. i meet different people in a day, from beggars to politicians. i just can't stop receiving informations. and my head sometimes feels like being overloaded by crabs. well... i can't talk details. maybe later on. i just want to know whether this forum fits me or not... thanks,