Alfa

I think it's important to learn the art of ending. Is she already taken? Adress the issue. Like with a girl I met at a conference the other day. We hit it off right away, but she was wearing a ring: "You know, that ring really bothers me. If it wasn't for that you would undoubtedly have fallen for my charm and let me seduce you. Now all I can do is kick your ass in a game of darts". Put it anyway you want, but when the issue is adressed it's out there. She knows what's up with you and may decide for herself what to do about it. Most likely you get a "thanks, you're a good guy but...". In rare events she may reconsider who she wants. Either way, you'll get a much better idea of where you stand. A lot of trouble can be avoided if guys just adressed such issues directly. Instead they avoid it and keep hoping. She doesn't like to return your calls? Cancels on dates? Is just too darn busy to have time with you? Tell her what you want and make it clear you're moving on if she can't give it to you. Either she reconsiders or it's over. Simple as that. Instead a lot of guys are thinking "wonder if she likes me" or "maybe she's just playing hard to get". Whatever. Put an end to it and you'll know. As far as bad attitudes go... run in the opposite direction.

Because men are better equiped to be the initiators of sex, and women seem to have evolved to like it that way. I think Dagny would box your ears and spank you like a baby seal for suggesting such a preposterous thing. Granted, Dagny taught him a thing or two and enticed him, but Rearden was certainly the man in that relationship.

I think Kevin makes a good point about responsibility. By asking a girl if you can kiss her you usually put that choice upon her(I say usually because you could make if playful and teasing, with a confident "may I?" when you go for it), making it her responsibility. If YOU want to kiss her, better make that YOUR call. She'll let you know either way if she wants it or not.

Anticipation is an important concept, but there's one that I think is better - tension. To create tension there needs to be some anticipation, but tension can be fairly immediate. For example you can try a "shock and awe"-approach(if you google it I think you'll find articles with fairly rude and not so classy examples, but the dynamic works). Here's how I might do it: I'm a very friendly guy, I can talk to just about anyone and like to joke around. I know women see me as a nice-guy and they rarely know that I mean buisness. So alot of times we get along well, have fun and good rapport - but nothing sexual. I can throw them small hints, but keep them guessing - I don't mind that. When it's time, i'll flip the switch and get serious. So, say she's talking away - or the other way around - and... gosh, aint she pretty? Just grab her, give her a good kiss and... "It's time to stop talking" or "you were saying?" When she gets that "WTF?" look just hold her gaze with a small, confident smile. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. Don't back off. Watch the magic, or get slapped if you miscalculated(for the record, i've never miscalculated). That's tension. There's not much anticipation going on. You just create tension, and let the sparks ignite because of the friction. Now, it could be anything else you say or do. You can let it build over time with anticipation, or make it more immediate. This is just an example of a more immediate approach that quickly creates tension(it could also be made by a risky comment, or some other kind of action).

Regarding dominance there's a metaphor I think works well for me. I'm the ruler of my own kingdom, and I build that kingdom after my own vision. If I like her I can invite her into my realm and lead her into my world. She may choose to stay or leave. And if things work out really well, we can join our lands together and she can be my queen. That metaphor pertains to more than just dominance. There's nothing like romance to test the integrity of your kingdom. Alot of young men learn that the hard way when they fall hopelessly in love with a woman.

I recall a couple of good examples of testing from Atlas Shrugged. There are lots more, but these are fairly straightforward and seemingly simple. Both are between Dagny and John Galt in Atlantis. I don't remember them verbatim, but well enough to get the point across. One is John taking Dagny to his house. "Will I be safe?" "Yes" "I don't even know you" "Yes you do. You named a railroad after me, remember?" Imagine Dagny in that siutation. She's falling for him, big time, while she's also physically weak because of her injuries. Dagny is losing control. While certainly exciting, it's also a scary situation. She tries to break the spell and attempts a rational(or perhaps rationalistic?) response: "I don't even know you!". Galt could have answered by trying to soothe her: "Oh, it's allright - you'll get to know me eventually". That would immediately have "killed the mood", bursting the bubble so to speak. So there's more to this guy? Perhaps even unpleasant surprises? Better put your defenses up, distance yourself, and atleast take it slow(or run away). He could also have lost his confidence, getting defensive and trying to prove himself to her. That would have been a warning sign. Is there something wrong with the guy? What's he trying to hide? That's actually a very common test: "I don't give my number to strangers", "who are you anyway?", "why are you talking to me?", "I don't even know you!". There are lots of variations to that theme. There are similar defenses when you lead things towards sex. In such cases she may not only be concerned about giving out personal information, talking to you or meeting up for a date. She may also worry about her reputation, that you'll still respect her and perhaps that you'll want more than sex from her. Another example is when they're discussing where Dagny should stay. "I want you to stay at my house. If that's what you wish" "I'm you prisoner, remember? As long as i'm your captive I don't have any wishes. You decide" "You just expressed a wish" Dagny realized that had he responded in any other way it would have been over. Galt just proved that he was able to retain his strength and was able to call her BS. What if he told her he was prepared to hold her by force, or sacrificing what he really wanted by backing off? He chose neither. My best friend and his girl often play that game: "oh no, you decide" and "if that's what you wish" etc. He's never lost. They'll be getting married this spring. I'm sure you can find lots of your own examples to relate to.

Reminds me of when someone told me how her grandparents met. Grandma used to hide and curse whenever that "obnoxious, irritating, man" came around. One day he came over, sat down in the living room and refused to leave until she agreed to marry him. And they lived happily ever after. I'm not sure what the moral of the story is, but you don't need modern technology to pester a lady.

Let me clarify that sentence, just in case it was misunderstood. On a second glance it's a bit ambigous. What I meant is that there is the option of rape, but it's not romance and it is wrong. Roark and Dominique was not rape but consensual.

You can google "match.com demographics". Here's a link with slightly different statistics, but it's got more sites as well: http://www.webpersonalsonline.com/demographics_online_dating.html Bars might be free, but nightclubs aren't. Atleast not where I live. I'm not trying to compare bars, nightclubs and dating sites. Those are just a few of the most common ways to meet a partner. School and work are also up there at the top of the list. What they all have in common is that the women are being pursued, and men pursue. It's also common that women get plenty of attention. I'm not saying rape is romance. However, there is that option. Not morally or legally, in any civilized country, but metaphysically. It could also matter in romantic contexts. However uncommon, Roark could take Dominique but she would have been out of luck trying to do the same. I just threw you a test to see how you would respond. A simple obseration on how you would react. I don't think it would have been manipulative even if it had happened covertly. Do you?

What demographic? There are all kinds of people on dating sites. Simple googling showed that 51% of the visitors on match.com are female. There are metaphysical differences here. Men are stronger and it's highly unlikely for anything to happen without their consent(note: i'm talking morally or legally here, those are different concerns). Women are powerless when pursuing a man. There's nothing they can do unless he wants to, and if anything happens it's hard to tell wether it's from convencience or desire. On the other hand, talk to women about being pursued and it's a different story. Being pursued by a strong man makes them feel more powerful, beautiful and desired. This is not to say that men somehow dislike being pursued. However, that's more typically about convenience and an ego-boost. For someone who know how to pursue women it matters very little. A man with high self-esteem who feels strong and attractive, would rather look at the woman who's the hardest to win. Because alot of men respond out of convencience rather than desire. You may get men hoping for an easy lay, or men who get strung along hoping to get laid at all. Either way, it tends to work out rather poorly. So, here's a straight question for you: Are you gay? No, you don't have to answer that. Just consider different responses to it. Agressive? Defensive? Indifferent? How about OBSERVING the response? How is it MANIPULATIVE to ask that question?

Datings sites and bars are two of the most common places where people meet, both for short and long term relationships. And just because women may not like most of the guys doesn't mean they don't have many more suitors. Good for you. I gave a simple concrete example of how to quickly screen for jealous tendencies. Please give an example of a situation where it would happen naturally. The best I can come up with, early on, is if someone else hits on you. Which may happen, but most guys wouldn't hit on a girl who looks to be out on a date. I mean that among other things. And my point is that when a guy demonstrates confidence, self-esteem, honesty, integrity and so on, women will find him attractive. Not all women all of the time, but in general. Testing is a way to screen for such character traits, and when a guy demonstrates them there's a sexual response.

Nah, forget it. DonAthos, I find you too rude to bother arguing with.

Have you never had a woman not call you back, suddenly change plans or stop responding? No distancing behaviours once you're starting to get close? No picking fights or jealousy plots? No creating challenges for you?

I wasn't saying that I just happen to know this stuff and that people should just accept it. I was pointing out how difficult it is to navigate through a subject like this because it's based on observations from interacting with people, and what's subcommunicated. A much easier way would be to observe real world interactions and simply point out what's happening.

I would put that firmly under the classification of "invite and encourage". What you're describing is a woman working within the boundaries of trying to get things to happen, while not leading/pursuing in a sexual way. She may hope it will lead to that, but she's not making the first sexual move. I have a recent personal anecdote which I classify as "leading/pursuing". Met a woman on the buss. You know the same old: she thinks i'm handsome, asks for my phone number, gets down on her knees and proposes. That kind of stuff. A bit old and tired routine, but she was real pretty and charming so I decided to give her a shot. That's taking the lead. Howeer, I like to add, I was the one who took it from there. She took a more passive role while I took care of the plans. Bars, nightclubs, cruises, parties... yes, i've been around. Women tend to get a little bit bolder when they are in groups and alcohol is involved. Still, you don't see many women make actual moves. And no, looking at a guy, crossing/uncrossing your legs and playing with your hair does not count. If that's what you're thinking about, except for the stereotypical picture perhaps, that's an invitation. If you're thinking about starting up a casual conversation at a bar, that would be a borderline scenario considering the context. If you're thinking of a more straightforward approach, that's even more uncommon. Those things do happen though. However, what's extremely rare is for the woman to take it from there all the way to the bedroom.

What kind of men are we talking about then, exactly? Because if we're talking about only the men you might find desirable that could narrow the list down significantly. I've actually made female profiles on dating sites just to see what kind of response i'll get. It was huge. I also have many female friends, and when going out I don't know how many times i've had to watch their back and go all alpha-male. It's a completely different world for women. Not saying either one is better or worse. It's just different. Women generally have a much greater quantity. For men the great majority is clueless and don't have many options, if any at all. Then there are a few who know how to get what they want. Usually it works rather poorly when women pursue men, but I do wish you the best of luck. Testing happens in many different ways, shapes and forms. It can tell a woman if the man is stable, honest, has integrity, courage etc. If she for example finds that the man seems emotionally unstable, jealous and dishonest that should be a warning sign. Such things could otherwise take time to discover, and then she might find herself in a situation she won't like. Simply sticking around other people is not exactly viable either. How would you by, say, dating in public places, discover that he's jealous? Aksing him? Or, creating a situation where he actually could get jealous? "Hey, look at the guy over there - he's really tall and handsome!", or flirting with the waiter or whatnot. I've spent a few years studying all sorts of material on this stuff, observing and... um, I guess you could say practicing. I've participated in communities, exchanging experiences with others and I've met a few guys who make a living out of teaching men to attract women. You are reading the examples in an a narrow and concrete bound way.

That's not leading, it's just a very frustrated woman! No really, I feel a little sorry for her. Is there any way I can help? Okay, i'm teasing. I'm kind of obnoxious that way. On a more serious note, I have never ever seen that happen. Not the way I understand you, which is a woman stringing him along all the way. Like giving him a map, a compass and an indian guide getting him straight to her heart and her bed. There are of course many things women do to get themselves noticed, invite or encourage a man and making themselves available. But i'd say it's very rare that anything happens unless the man steps up and takes the lead.

I would not consider that pursuing, no. Pursuing is leading it towards something sexual. Hinting is a subtle invitation for the man to do that.

I'm sorry if that's not your experience, but the reality is that women get approached/invitations from men ALOT more than the other way around. And what do you mean by "i've rarely come across more than one person making any noteworthy attemp to pursue a female in a given time period"? Do you mean like at once? Or within the hour, day, week? Or let me put it this way: men rarely EVER get approached. They may get invited to do so, which is nice enough for those of us who are able to pick up on it, but men do the pursuing. The safest option there is to not take unecessary risks with someone you can't trust yet. Testing can reveal if someone is genuine or if the warning flags should go up. I'm basing it on experience and observation of hundreds, if not thousands, of cases. Depending on situation there are many ways that can be done; ignore, be un-reactive, call her bluff, assert yourself... whatever is apropriate for the given situation. Stay in control and watch the magic happen. You're missing the point by about a mile. It's not necessarily about the suit, or whatever else she may notice. It's about poking him a little with a stick to see if he's just full of hot air or actually comfortable with himself. While there certainly are some women who are intolerably rude and a waste of time, you have to look at the context and read between the lines.

Do you think men get aroused by a woman acting assertively? I can see respect, admiration and with other traits combined - attraction. Meanwhile, a woman can get turned on start to let go of control. Why?

Guy walks up to a girl, beaming with confidence: "Hey hot-stuff!" "Hey yourself. What's up with that suit?" "Um...?" "Looks like something you inherited from grandpa, and it smells funky" "..." What would it tell you if the guy is lost for words, loses all his confidence, gets defensive or... simply answers with a confident: "I love this suit!"? That single instance may not tell you all there is to know about the guy, but it certainly gives a clear hint. That's a bit silly and simplified example, but it happens alot. A few days ago I talked to a girl who asked about my tattoos. Sort of examining my arm, asking questions and hinting about disapproval(um, well, suggesting laser removal is a bit more than just hinting ). I answered simple questions about their meaning, but simply did not give a crap about her disapproval. At the end she smiled and just went: "Oh well, if you're happy I don't mind them". That does say a bit about a persons confidence. Now, try a few different angles and you'll start to get a better picture. Another thing would be getting into a discussion where she tries to get your approval, and subtly changes her view to the opposite to see if you'll still agree with her. She may try to get you to do things for her. Buy her a drink or hold her purse. Flaking or disrupting your plans. See if she can string you along forever without it ever leading to sex. This is not about getting a full understanding of your character. That may happen in time, with more testing and getting to know each other. I'm not saying males don't respond to strong, confident and assertive women. I'm saying that reaction is not sexual in the same way that a womans reaction is.

That's a huge problem when discussing these things. It's incredibly difficult to explain to someone who doesn't "get it". Alot of women are unaware of it and those who are aware rarely explain it to guys. For the guys not seeing whats going on the whole concept seems alien. What you're left with is explaining your own experiences and observations, plus a few insightful women who tell it like it is. Not to mention that the whole thing is supposed to go unnoticed! This is not to say it's wrong to question the idea, it's just that the nature of it makes it a very tough debate.

Character can not ONLY be judged over a wide range of time. It may take time and effort to get to know a person well, but you can also make quick assesments of a persons potential. And how can a woman tell if a man is just swag and no substance? If he's got solid confidence or if he's a wimp? Or a creep behind a charming facade? Consider that women are the ones being pursued and they have many suitors. How would she decide which ones are worth her time? Also consider that women are at much greater risk. How would she determine which men are potential dangers? Not all things are revealed by simple observation and interaction. Lastly, women respond sexually when a man passes her tests. If he stands firm, confident and assertive she will feel sexual attraction very much unlike a man does.

It may be worth noting that the PUA scene is very diverse with a mixed philosophy. There are some very good ideas there, some are so-so and others terrible. One thing all of the different approaches have in common though is the idea of a masculine and feminine polarity. That's also why the different approaches work so well in teaching men to attract women. Having that fundamental down it will work despite otherwise terrible ideas. Atleast if you by "work" mean being able to attract women. Quality of women and relationships may of course differ.

What you're missing is the psychological differences between men and women. Men don't test women the same way.