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Socionomer

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Posts posted by Socionomer

  1. A rather ironic aspect to this situation is that by selecting a military recruitment office as the object of their anti-war/anti-Bush protest message, they apparently are unaware of the fact that the most anti-war presidential candidate in the 2008 election gets more support from active duty military members than all of the other democratic and republican candidates combined. I'm speaking of Ron Paul of course. And thet the largest employers of those who contribute to his campaign are the Army, Navy, and Air Force.

  2. People behave differently in areas of finance than they do when making daily economic decisions pertaing to the production or consumption of goods and services. In the economic realm, rational decisions are made based on accurate price information related to supply and demand. Financial markets appear to have a psychological component that distorts the supply/demand relationship because people are more likely to behave irrationally. This is seen when higher prices actuallyattract more buyers rather than less, or when buyers disappear in the face of collapsing prices. This occurs in markets for stocks, bonds, commodities, collectibles, and real estate.

  3. I wonder how much more of an effect on politics Libertarians would have had over the years if they had focused their money and their efforts on promoting a proper philosophy?

    About as much of an effect as Objectivists have had. Not much. Unfortunately DIM minds don't want to know.

    There appears to be an irresistible compulsion for some people to continually conflate "libertarianism" with the Libertarian Party. Not all LP members subscribe to the philosophy, just as not ALL Democrats or Republicans consciously proclaim secular or religious altruism as their ideal philosophy (most don't even know what the hell it means). There really is no point in continuing discussin of the subject until critics can distinguish between the two, the same way they make similar distinctions with other parties.

  4. Ayn Rand set forth the logical derrivation of the right of self-ownership. Most Libertarians with whom I have had contact lack this essential philosophical foundation." So what good are the principles of Libertarianism if they can't be morally defended or justified by Libertarians?

    Most HUMAN BEINGS lack this philosophical derivation and it is BEYOND the reach of minds not receptive to reason. I'm sure Libertarians appreciate your holding them to a higher standard than the rest of the global population, and since you continue to reside in a nation founded on their morally indefensible principles you must find them useful for something. (I,m just assuming you live in the USA).

  5. You do not see a point in comparing them, even if there are significant differences? You see no value in identifying the moral roots of particular political positions?

    I don't follow you. Who are the "philosophic brothers" that you think deserve some slack? And what does "cutting some slack" mean in this context? Suspend judgment?

    If you judge others based solely on their affiliation with a group, attributing every evil associated with that group to each and every individual that is a member, and fail to judge yourself by the same standard, then you are indeed a hippocrite. Who said anything about "particular political positions"? You've been speaking in generalities, content to judge without particulars, requiring merely a label and lumping every individual with that label in the same moral category, including Objectivists.

  6. The point is that, despite your contention to the contrary, the three political parties are not all "similarly incompatible with Objectivist philosophic premises", to use your words.

    For example, with respect to morality, what do the parties advocate? The Democrats advocate secular altruism. The Republicans advocate religious altruism. The Libertarians advocate NOTHING, and declare that no moral justification for capitalism is possible or necessary.

    Surely the notion that politics is amoral, i.e. that morality is irrelevant, is more "incompatible" with Objectivism than advocating the wrong morality.

    Look, that first quote was someone else's. Also, I'm not trying to advocate any philosphies here other than Objectivism, and I don't see any point to comparing performance report cards of political parties based on what they do or don't advocate. THE point is that Objectivists should essentially be advocating the same things, regardless of what party they belong to, and based on the same Objectivist philosophic premises, not the mistaken premises of their parties. Cut your philosophic brothers some slack for god's sake.

  7. The philosophy of the Libertarian Party is more dangerous than the philosophies of the Democratic and Republican parties to Objectivist philosophy specifically because, whereas the philosophies of the other parties are but lies, the philosophy of the Libertarian Party is a lie intended to be confused with Objectivist philosophy.

    The philosophic basis for the libertarian party (though not by that name) existed before Objectivism and therefore cannot have been intended to be confused with it. There may be individuals who possess such intent now, and if so, they deserve the criticism they receive. The point is that well-intentioned Objectivists who support the LP deserve the same deference given to Objectivists of other parties when it comes to moral judgements regarding motive unless there is evidence to the contrary. Objectivists who seek similar ends should be free to debate the means used for attaining those ends and criticize each other based on facts stemming from those arguments, not for "being" libertarians, republicans or democrats when primarily they are Objectivists. Descent to that level implies everyone is "guilty by association" to some extent.

  8. I am not critical of the Libertarian Party "because it's principles are not derived from Objectivism"; I am critical of the LP because it promotes the notion that no such derivation is possible or necessary. That is worse than anything the Democrats or Republicans have done.

    Well, since nearly every terrible thing that has occured since this country's founding is the result of policies of both Democrats and Republicans, and since so many have either lost money, property, freedom, or their lives, I believe that perhaps a few of them, if they were still alive, would question your use of the term "worse" as well as your sense of proportion. I certainly do. But at least you are not a hippocrite.

  9. An Objectivist who is critical of the Libertarian Party because it's principles are not derived from the same philosophic premises as Objectivism is fully justified in that criticism. Objectivists who decide to ally themselves with the Libertarian Party which they see as the best means to realize a more free and capitalistic society are also justified in doing so, in the same way as those who support the Republican, Democratic, or other parties.

    Since the subject of this thread is "Libertarians" it should not be surprising that the majority of the comments in an Objectivist forum would be of a critical nature. I would also, however, expect that those who have been so vocal here against Libertarians would be just as vocal and critical of Democrats and Republicans if there were similar threads devoted to those parties, which, using the same standard of judgement, are similarly incompatible with Objectivist philosophic premises.

    Objectivists may argue with each other about which parties best serve ideal Objectivist ends, and wether or not an Objectivist should even support any of today's political parties, but the height of hippocracy would be a case where an Objectivist who is an active member of one of today's current political parties questions another Objectivist's party affiliation using the phiosophic premise argument I have witnessed here. One may argue it justifiably so long as one does not vote for any party candidates in elections. Doing so makes one a hippocrite.

  10. EDIT: Another thing I intended to mention but forgot. A psychologist I speak to thinks that sometimes a feeling can be just too strong to ignore, and therefore addictions are real. If you accept this is that a rejection of free will? I figured if I started thinking that way, I would make it real...

    A psychologist who says "sometimes a feeling can be just too strong to ignore" is (by implication) saying that it is normal and healthy to ignore "less strong" feelings. This attitude is wrong and harmful to one's well-being.

    Feelings/emotions are value responses to some aspect of perceived reality. They cannot be "commanded" out of existence. In "The Disowned Self" , Dr. Branden tells us emotions follow a natural course of their own. An emotion is first experienced, it is then expressed in some form of bodily behavior, and then it is discharged.

    Repressing emotions can lead to all sorts of problems. Brandon shows us that it is unnecessary. It is possible to experience and acknowledge all emotions without being compelled to act on them. They must all be taken seriously though. They provide feedback about your values (whether right or wrong).

  11. Libertarianism is a political philosophy the basis for which not all of its members even agree on. I consider myself a political libertarian yet find myself despising many of the people I meet who identify themselves as libertarians. Not all have the same reasons for identifying themselves as such. Many have narrow, special interests which they believe will be best served under a libertarian system of government.

    It is enough for me though, that there is a consensus that individual personal and economic rights are to be protected by the government, that it is wrong to initiate or threaten the use of force or coercion against others, and that we are responsible for our own lives.

    What other people's beliefs are, or how they conduct their lives is their choice. Tolerance of others is expected (in the context of using coercion to alter behavior that is not a threat to others) but other forms of persuasion are permitted to effect positive (or negative) changes in society.

    The two major parties both implicity endorse and actively serve to violate individual rights and so I cannot in good conscience support candidates of either party (with few exceptions). Neither of the main parties have more of a coherent philosophical justification for their policies than the libertarians do. The difference to me is that both of them force their policies on us at the expense of individual rights. That is more evil in my view than any mistaken philosophical ideals some libertarians may possess but are incapable of forcing on people. I can defend myself again pernicious ideas, but not against a metal jacketed bullet that democrats and republicans are willing to use under various circumstances.

  12. The income tax is a form of slavery. A government that has the authority and power to tax 1% of one's income, has the authority and power to tax 100% (as it came close to doing to the wealthiest during WW II).

    A sales tax could work as a replacement to the income tax ONLY if the size and scope of government is reduced. Otherwise the sales tax rate will be high enough to provide incentive for a HUGE black market in goods and services.

    The government's response to this could result in the abolition of paper currency and coinage in order to force ALL transactions to be made electronically. Present technology makes this scenario feasible.

  13. I don't have any children yet, but in the event I do, I like the idea of having my future children select their own names. My spouse and I would create a list of about ten male and ten female names which we prefer and then come up with a method by which the infant would "choose" a name from the list him or herself.

    (maybe by grasping a crayon and the first name he/she touches on the sheet of paper is theirs). Should they then become dissatisfied later in life with their name, you can tell them whose really to blame. :)

  14. I had to stop reading too, for the same reason. But I disagree with the premise that the soldiers we have in Iraq are over there consciously "sacrificing" themselves. It's just fashionable to use that terminology because "selflessness" is still considered a good thing in our religion dominated society.

    The soldiers who died in Iraq and elsewhere had their lives TAKEN from them, against their will. Most believe in what they are doing and subconsciously hold freedom and defense of their country as a value worth RISKING their lives for, not necessarily OFFERING them up to have their throats slit in a certain death (which is the imagery that "sacrifice" brings to mind).

    Actually most of them are fighting primarily for their buddies on their right and left, whom they definitely hold as values.

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