clarus
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Posts posted by clarus
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I never claimed to be part of this group, or that I even support such an idea, just merely pointing out concrete evidence contrary to your statements. Also, as someone has mentioned, we have no idea if these are even true students of Objectivism, Objectivishists or just liars... the last two being nearly the same thing with the exception of errors in knowledge.
Oh, I'm sorry, I assumed, with the typical result, that was your site and that you were, as a corollary, a member of the FSP. And I have no idea about them either, I've never seen it before or seen anyone connected with it.
-Rich
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I was actually interested but now it seems like some secular cult.
Wow, um, can you please explain what flow of logic led you to this conclusion. I could possibly see utopians, idealists, or dreamers, but a secular cult? That I missed.
-Rich
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You continue to use arguments that have been either demonstrated to you as false or have no relevance to the topic. I will no longer participate in this discussion unless you provide any new ideas on the mater or at least begin to comprehend what you have already been told by either myself or RadCap. I have said my piece on this topic, if you have any question regarding what I have said state them polite and honest manner and I will be happy to answer them.
Is what I said in my earlier post an incorrect assessment? (i.e. "I didn't say you'd be stealing, I said you'd be second-handing. You will be reaping the benefits of the state we will have created while you have done nothing to aid us. You consume, but do not create.")
My point to you and this forum is that the FSP is an excellent project for Objectivists to actively become involved in. Consult the literature on the thinking behind the FSP and New Hampshire. Objectivists are just as marginalized as us activists for liberty in the shaping of laws and the culture we live in. We have so many goals and values in common (if you ever check your premises and come to a local FSP meeting). The FSP (or some more overtly Objectivist project to similarly move to NH) presents a unique opportunity for our ideas to flourish and be actively involved in the shaping of the society we live in.
Am I wrong? Is there another plan to bring Objectivism into the fore?
-Rich
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"It is justifiably presumed that people have the intellectual basis for liberty"
The fact that someone thinks they can justify their idea of 'liberty' does NOT mean that justification is valid. As such, your presumption is false.
"Its as well defined as the Objectivist political philosophy of Capitalism"
No it is not. You demonstrate this clearly in the above statement as well as with your previous posts, including those in which you explicitly state there is no *one* standard of ethics for liberty.
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You are taunting, goading, cajolling and mudslinging in your attempt to get others to debate you and to promote libertarianism. This site does not tolerate such behavior. You have been warned once already. If it persists, you will be removed.
First off, your warning is unjustified. I had not noticed it until you pointed it out. Please quote me where I am out of line. Read this discussion again. I did not bring Libertarianism into this discussion, others did and I have attempted to move away from it (the discussion of Objectivism and the hostility to Libertarianism, which I hope to have time to reply to also tonight, is appropriately under political philosophy). I am focusing on the Free State Project itself and why Objectivists should sign on, or at the very least, be friendly to and/or support the project. Moreover, I intentionally placed this thread under misc. becuase it is a topic that didn't fall under the other categories but was relevant to Objectivists. Your threat of removal is uncalled for.
Now, as for your preceding remarks, am I wrong, or does Rand not hold freedom to be an instrinic value/desire of man? Is this desire of freedom not a reflection of man's will or self? Moreover, is it not possible and true that different men have differing individual justifications for their freedom? Francisco wished to be free to mine copper, Rearden metal, Roark building, etc. This is my point: individuals justify their low-level specific need for liberty differently, but all fall under the heading of justifications for liberty and are valid.
Bringing this back to the FSP, we know that for men of reason to flourish and their values met, this necessitates a government for the protection of life, liberty, and property. Rand expressed this similar sentiment in the oath to enter the gulch and join the strike. That one will not live one's life for another nor ask one to live theirs for yours is an oath, just as our statement of intent is an oath. It is given meaning by the later actions of the men saying it and is only as good as their character. Moreover, while the words are different, I challenge you to show me how our statement of intent is contrary to what I presume the adherents on this forum would have taken to enter the gulch.
I will discuss how defined Objectivist Capitalism is in our other discussion.
-Rich
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CF - exactly. The project is just a blank-check support of an undefined and unidentified political platform that mouths vague platitudes about achieving 'liberty' - but without providing any intellectual basis (or even definition) for that liberty.
Of course it's a blank-slate, because the Free State Project is not about a specific political platform/slate of policies. It is solely about getting 20,000 activists to support a society for the protection of life, liberty, and property to move to NH. It is up to the people that move to bring these abstract ideas into eventual existence and meaning through political activism. We do not know what the eventual Free State that is created will look like..(free) societies are chaotic systems.
So, I ask you to ask yourself, do you have in your mind what a society that protects life, liberty, and property would look like? That is your working definition. Now, how do you plan to achieve this society. I impeach you to attend a local meeting of FSPers/porcupines in your area to check your premises and see whether your hostility towards joining the FSP is justified. I think you will find your (Objectivist) vision is aided, not hindered, by us.
Because most of us don't use the label Objectivist to describe ourselves doesn't mean many of us do not follow most of, if not all of, Objectivism. I would hate for you to be getting upset (disregarding us) over semantics.
-Rich
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You are getting ridiculous. What will I be stealing from you and the others who start this “Free State”, if I chose to move there sometime in distant future? If this state is created, when I move there, after the fact, what will I have taken that does not belong to me?
“And you are going to wait until that point so that everything has to be rebuilt and billions of people die instead of getting involved now?”
Yes, I only worry about me.
“is this the United States you wish to support”
I don’t have to support it to live here.
“Do not go gently into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light”
Instead of starting another political system lacking an ethical base, I am advocating the spread of one that contains a perfectly sound and explicitly defined ethical system and will not fail once it is in place.
“I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property” (but has no foundation because it has not defined, just as the libertarians have not, the purpose for its liberty).
This is how I read it. What exactly will I be supporting here, life, liberty, and property, but by whose definition? This is the problem we face today through out America.
Finally, you are assuming that people, rational or irrational because you don’t care to ask, have an intellectual basis for liberty or else they would not have to stimulus to participate in this charade? WOW! Rethink that one. Please tell us what this intellectual base you are presuming exists in every individual involved in this project.
I didn't say you'd be stealing, I said you'd be second-handing. You will be reaping the benefits of the state we will have created while you have done nothing to aid us. You consume, but do not create.
I'm as selfish as you, but I guess I am not as short sighted and/or idle when an opportunity to live in and create a state for individual freedom to flourish comes knocking.
I will take that as a no.
And I have no problem with you advocating Objectivism. What I am saying is that talk is cheap. How about you and the others on this list create an Objectivist Project to get Objectivists to move to New Hampshire. Come show us up...
By your definition, since it's you who decide what to work to create. I think it's your problem that you think abstractions can be made absolute, consistent across all people, and perfectly concrete (no greys) without artificial/man-made definitions and continual acceptance by the individuals within a community. Capitalism is no more well defined than life, liberty, and property. Both are words which (can) trigger differing definitions and behavior. Rand's definition of Capitalism is one, mine is another (that it is simply an economic system whereby the means of production are owned/controlled privately), but individuals decide which they will choose to use.
Funny, Rand recognized the intrinsic characteristic of men to be free, do you? They see that they are not living in a free society where they can rise to be the best they can be and live the life they want to live, and decided to do something about it. Isn't that obvious
-Rich
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CF - exactly. The project is just a blank-check support of an undefined and unidentified political platform that mouths vague platitudes about achieving 'liberty' - but without providing any intellectual basis (or even definition) for that liberty.
Its as well defined as the Objectivist political philosophy of Capitalism (care to argue this one?)
It is justifiably presumed that people have the intellectual basis for liberty or else people wouldn't be pissed off or motiviated enough to move. A dare say you should come to a Free State Project meeting in your area and meet some of us.
-Rich
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Signing a libertarian-sponsored statement is not something John Galt would do either.
It is not libertarian sponsored, but please enlighten me as to what is so contrary to Objectivism in the following statement:
I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.
-Rich
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I said I would consider moving there someday and if I do it will be because it is the freest place to live, enough said. John Galt did what he did because the world was in an unbearable state. Personally I do not think we are in the world of Atlas Shrugged quite yet. If I am free to build my life then that’s what I’ll do, once that freedom is gone so am I.
I know that is what you said, but it strikes me as un-objectivist. You will be second-handing the state we build, not by the point in time you were born, which you cannot help, but by conscious choice.
And you are going to wait until that point so that everything has to be rebuilt and billions of people die instead of getting involved now?
Not quiet yet, but look around...is this the United States you wish to support?
Do not go gently into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Build your life in NH and help build a Free State.
-Rich
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Free State Objectivists:
I'm glad to see this. Hopefully you can help me in convincing more Objectivists (on this forum) to sign the statement of intent
-Rich
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I have to agree with Diana Hsieh.
Check out The Libertarian Website, which seems to seek a diversity in opinion simply not correlated with capitalism.
Excerpt:
This is from the Libertarians' own website
No such inconsistencies exist in capitalism.
Because capitalism holds that man's reason is an absolute.
Yes, because we realize that there is not one absolute system which uniquely leads to individual liberty. Moreover, there are individual differences in how people define having liberty and what rights entail. We recognize this and build a political structure around it: live and let live.
I'd say Captialism holds resources should be owned/controlled by private individuals. It is Objectivism which holds reason as absolute. But it's late and I could be wrong...I'll talk to you all tomorrow.
-Rich
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There is a lengthy thread on libertarianism here.
You may find my post on that thread relevant, as I was in a similar situation as you for a few years.
Hi. Thanks. I'll try and find some time to read or at least skim that discussion.
-Rich
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You can't blame us for this. Take a look at what various libertarian organizations advocate. Follow the link below and you will see a libertarian organization calling themselves "Libertarian Socialists." O'ist Dianna Hsieh has speculated that the term "Libertarian" itself is most likely a package deal of various ideologies under one umbrella.
http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog/2004_04_04_...941896945396488
I think of Libertarianism as an eclectic movement with some really good thinkers and some that are horrible. It has a long history which I know only very broadly. The better libertarians (Von Mises, Simon, etc) probably represent the best ideas (ie most rational and intergrated) that can be obtained without Ayn Rand's philosophy (especially her epistemology). Therefore, being that O'ism is in its infancy and not everyone has heard of let alone read and integrated Ayn Rand's work, I tend to cut some Libertarians (and the better conservatives like Sowell and Williams) some leeway. That being said when one reads the American bashing bile that their most prominent organizations put out it becomes tough to stomach it.
argive99:
Ehh, I think I will blame you
Yes, and if you read their thinking, Libertarian Socialism, which while contrary to Objectivism, is a consistent idea. While I disagree with its justification for this, it views economic socialism as the path to achieiving liberty. Libertarianism is simply the political philosophy which holds liberty and freedom as the highest political value. Of course various ideologies embrace libertarianism, freedom is a basic desire of man and there are multiple ways to skin a cat.
Heh, Objectivism is no more in its infancy that libertarianism. Rand has been around since the 30s, though I'll start at the 1960s with the peak of her popularity, and the LP wasn't formed until the 1970s, I'm not sure when the term was coined. Moreover, many of Rand's philosophical ideas had been stated previously by other philosophers and have been out there for awhile. The power of Ayn Rand to me is the presentation and synthesis of these ideas into a powerful outlook on life and humantiy.
I'll ignore the alley into the debate of America's moral superiority for another time
I'll close by asking you whether your hostility to libertarianism is that it is not Objectivism or whether it really produces a political structure that you cannot live in as an Objectivist. -Rich
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Well, first off, the definition of your terms is incorrect. Objectivism is the name of the entire philosophy, encompassing not only ethics and politics, but also metaphysics, epistemology, and aesthetics.
The political branch of Objectivism is specifically called Capitalism (and it is not *just* the political branch of the philosophy, Capitalism is a social system, and as such also includes economics as well). This social system is inextricably linked to Objectivist ethics, which is derived from Objectivist epistemology and metaphysics. It cannot exist - in fact, NO social system can exist - without an ethic, epistemology, or metaphysics on which to stand. If one does not derive this social system from an ethic, then all one has is a floating abstraction. Libertarianism does not advocate any particular ethic, epistemology, or metaphysics. Thus it IS a floating abstraction - it is the unreal masquarading as the real. It is an attempt to replace the real with the unreal. (And if you assert that libertarianism is based on all of the objectivist metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics, then you need to state why you call it something other than objectivism. See more of this below).
Since you use the term libertarianism to distinguish your political system from capitalism (otherwise, why the separate term?), then what EXACTLY does distinguishes it *from* capitalism. If there is no difference, then why create a new term and try use it in place of capitalism? Why not use the term capitalist instead of libertarian? Why are you not President and founder of your university's College Capitalists?
In addition, what exactly did you consider to be 'propagandistic' and "unwarranted" in the Schwartz essay?
RadCap:
Okay, Objectivism is the entire philosophy, the moral part is what is relevant to the arguement.
You are right that libertarianism does not advocate any particular ethic, epistomology, or metaphysics, but this is for the same reason a toaster does not have an input for dishwasher fluid. Both are appliances, but a toaster and a dishwasher seek to do different things. Objectivism takes a solid position on ethics, metaphysics, aesthetics, etc as it must. Libertarianism is a political philosophy however and only deals with man's relation to his government. In this respect, it is very real with very firm positions and logic.
I do not assert Libertarianism to be Objectivism, but as an acceptable corolloary of "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine," which in fewer words is the libertarian adage "live and let live."
I do not use the term Capitalist because liberty is my political goal, not capitalism, which is an economic system. Capitalism is not a political value, Freedom is. Consequently, politically, Capitalism is of secondary importance. After all, you would agree that people can and have lived purposeful and selfish lives in private communes? Capitalism is the overarching economic system, but it does not require homogeneaty throughout. Perhaps you disagree (as I suspect you might, but I'd prefer to have this discussion in a later thread).
Without writing a complete review (I'll forward you to http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/philn/philn031.pdf for that), what stood out as propogandistic and unwarranted of Schwartz was his conclusion of libertarianism as anti-morality and anti-capitalism. That we feel morality can/should be left for individuals to decide for themselves and not politics/society is not anti-morality. It is a reflection of the free mind that individuals have to decide their lives. That we feel individuals should be allowed to distribute their resources as they deem fit is not anti-capitalism, but a testament to private property. But all these positions presume freedom from physical force, which is the realm of politics.
As you can guess, from my reasoning, libertarianism is the political philosophy that Objectivism warrants and should not be given he hostility and cold-shoulder it is often given.
I think I've addressed your points, but let me know if I missed something...I have a lot of replies to write.
-Rich
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...and you will not work to instill in this society the "rational ethical background" you think it needs? You will sit by and do nothing and let this opportunity pass you by (and/or fail, as you think it will)? That doesn't sound like something John Galt would do.
Galt talked the talk and walked the walk, that's what made him awesome. I hear a lot of talk from Objectivists, but rarely, if ever, have I seen them walk the walk.
I imagine that's pretty comfortable.
-Rich
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Mega Dittos Bob.
-Rich
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As per your antagonizsm to its libertarian supporters (it is not a Libertarian organization as such), please see my other thread in the political philosophy section of this forum.
I'm glad to see you'd consider moving there someday...should I take this to mean you are willing to help in the creation of this free society by signing the statement of intent (https://freestateproject.org/members/join.jsp) or second-hand after all the work is done?
-Rich
P.S. I should have stated by bias earlier..I have signed the statement of intent and will be moving to NH.
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As a preface, I will say that I am the President and founder of my University's College Libertarians.
This said, I am also a firm admirer of Ayn Rand and practioner of her philosophy. Never have I run into a contradition in these beliefs. This is likely because, to me at least, libertarianism is a/the corollary POLITICAL philosophy of Objectivism. Libertarianism fills out the policies that Ayn Rand alludes to, but never specifically writes (so far as I can find).
I'll define my terms for the purpose of debate so that Libertarianism is the POLITICAL philosophy (dealing with how governments/force should be used) that governments are established for the protection of individual liberty and the enforcement of negative rights and Objectivism is the MORAL philosophy (dealing with personal conduct) which is defined by the writings of Ayn Rand.
Nonetheless, Objectivists I have met, when I mention libertarianism, act as if I were a Communist and espousing A is B. I have read Peter Schwartz's essay and found it to be full of unwarranted intolerance and frankly is worthy of the progranda parodied in Atlas Shrugged rather than an Objectivist organization.
Thus, please explain why being libertarian (politically) does and/or should recieve the cold shoulder is seems to get in Objectivist circles.
-Rich
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Hi. I'm curious to know what the thoughts are of the people in this forum about the Free State Project (www.freestateproject.org). Please endulge me.
-Rich
Free State Initiative
in Activism for Reason, Rights, Reality
Posted
Please see my latest post on why I think Objectivists would and/or should.
What intimidation?
Indeed, and many people are in a similar position as you are. However, there are many ways to aid and steer this project other than moving. Recruiting members, donating money (join as a friend of the FSP), writing essays or OpEds, etc. are what others have done.
-Rich