WorthyLoverOfExistence
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Posts posted by WorthyLoverOfExistence
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I just read/skimmed this entire thread and I must say it's the most useful thing I've read for assessing Ron Paul. Thanks everyone.
I estimate about 40% of the posters support him and about 60% oppose him; if I weigh this by my (purely subjective) sense of the posters' "philosophic expertise" however, I think the support goes down to around 10-20% (no offense to anyone).
It's too soon to decide who to vote for, but I must say I enjoy having Ron Paul in the race. It makes the debates, polls and stuff a lot more interesting, and I agree with Clawq's point that his campaign has "'healed' some of the political apathy people had" (though I think what most people refer to as "apathy" is really mental paralysis from poor epistemology and it's subsequent confusion).
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As you well know, there was no compliment implied, but rather an ever-growing disdain for your attempts to hijack Objectivism for your own religious purposes.
OK. I'll bite.
How is suggesting that Objectivists with the stomach for it consider infiltrating religions and advocate reason directly to religion's victims an attempt to hijack Objectivism ?
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... I guess I need to find and read everything that Rand has said on the issue before I'm satisfied I understand it clearly enough...
Her Ford Hall Forum talk, "Of Living Death", is printed in three parts of "The Objectivist" - September, October, and November of 1968, starting on p. 513 of the bound edition.
This explores the implication of a Catholic publication ("encyclical") regarding sexuality, including basic ideas on abortion. The encyclical she analyzes, "HUMANAE VITAE", is now available on-line at the vatican website.
Comparing her analysis to the encyclical seems like an excellent opportunity to see how she extracts the essence if the matter. Also, having the encyclical in an electronic form allows you to search for key words so you won't have to read the whole thing.
Another article that gets into the abortion issue, and why "Not every wrong idea is an indication of a fundamental philosophical evil in a person's convictions; the anti-abortion stand is such an indication", is "A Last Survey" from November-December 1975 issue of "The Ayn Rand Letter", p. 383 in the bound edition.
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Of Course.
Well, I'm sure her brother, and all the parasites at TT would agree with you. They'd have considered her having Galt's child to be an incredibly selfish thing to do. With the business falling apart, she'd "owe" it to them to get an abortion. They would consider it to be her "duty".
I don't think she would. I don't think she'd destroy the most obvious, natural, and real expression of her love for Galt. It would have been her perfect "out"; but it wouldn't have fit Rand's theme.
My point is that the morality and responsibility of having sex is obviously related to the morality and responsibility of choosing to give birth to a child. It's the first choice in the process. It's the human means of creating children.
The reason I proposed a hypothetical example from Atlas, was to help visualize how the abortion issue would be viewed by ideal characters who take their actions and responsibilities seriously. A child, like any other existent, does not come into existence from a vacuum. I'm trying to broaden the context of this discussion.
Most anti-abortionist try to make the case that abortion is a form of murder, and a violation of the "rights" of the fetus. I view abortion as a form of homicide, but one that has a lot more in common with suicide than murder. The life and values being destroyed exist primarily in the minds of the potential parents, and only potentially in the fetus. Laws banning abortion are barbaric, as are laws banning suicide. All they do is add more pain and suffering to a situation that is already grim. But I view promiscuous abortion as tragic, and as a symptom and evidence of a really sick and dying, anti-life culture.
I can't take credit for the "rational religionists" theme - that's George Santayana's.
But I appreciate the compliment.
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She accrued that responsibility by the act of birth, and it is the child's rights, not the rights of the mother, that would be violated by not morally and legally holding the mother to the responsibility she incurred in creating that human life.
Isn't there also some degree of this responsibility incurred by consenting adults engaging in sexual relations ?
If it wasn't intentional; if the parties involved use contraceptive devices to prevent the pregnancy, but these failed, this doesn't change the morality of the act nor the responsibilities it incurs.
If Galt had impregnated Dagny in their encounter on the broken sandbags in the granite vault of the Taggart terminal, do people think Dagny would have had an abortion ?
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Who was the most mysterious character in Atlas Shrugged? John Galt.
A is A. John Galt exists.
It might be interesting to argue whether the John Galt I know is the same as the one you know, but if you truly think he exists, then I see not point in arguing about it...but could you ask him how the heck he got that motor to work ?
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John Galt *is* the concretization of the Objectivist ethics projected through a specific scope: the ideal man within the setting of AS.The unreality of 7 is equally "obvious". There is no such thing, there is no evidence that it actually exists or existed.
I think I got it. Aristotle named the principle when he talked about literature being in some sense more important than history.
The values we derive from reading about Galt are not from Galt, they are the potentialities of actual reality. Galt, being unreal, can have no value, but because he was created by Rand as man "can be and ought to be", he represents and brings to mind real possibilities, which do have value.
Krishna, on the other hand, or trolls or most fantasy creations, represent more of a "mystical invention", as opposed to things as they "could be and ought to be". What they bring to mind is an escape from the potentialities of reality, not a focus on them.
So Galt as a fictional character only gets indirect admiration. Rand gets the admiration for her skill in creating him as she did. The honest way to derive value from Galt is to allow his story to help one to be aware of how one's life, friends, and self approach it as an ideal, and motivates one to see to it that they do.
The dishonest way would be to continuously condemn one's life, friends, and self for "not living up" to that ideal, and to use this as an "excuse" to demotivate one from doing anything about it.
It's easier for Galt to serve the honest role than the dishonest one ; it's easier for fantasy to serve the dishonest role than the honest one, but both can be (mis)used in either way, depending on one's intent - to focus on reality, or to escape from it.
Galt is like a telescope, that we use to bring positive aspects of reality more into focus; Krishna is like a kaleidescope that we use to distract us from reality as such, both the positive and the negative aspects. Neither device is the (dis)value itself.
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So something that offers "plenty of value" can also be "self-deception"? How?
That's my question.
If I understand what dougclayton is saying, I'm not equivocating, I'm refusing to equivocate when I really "ought to".
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You mean, if one fictional character has great values for living on earth, and goes through tremendous struggle to realize these values, while another fictional character has great values for dying on earth, and goes through tremendous struggle to realize these values, the two should be admired equally?
Edit: by the way, your username would be great for a pseudo-Oist True Believer
I'm trying to focus on the nature of the mental action involved when we engage in fantasy or fiction, and how it is that the subjects of it can be sources of (dis)value, when they don't even exist. Is this not a form of dishonesty; of denying that the unreal is unreal ?
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Hmmm, maybe because the fictional character Krishna never gave a speech applicable to reality?
I wouldn't consider the specific speechs or actions of the two to be a fundamental distiction in the context of this discussion of their (un)reality, and the appropriateness of using them as sources of value.
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The word (un)real.
Now that I think about it, I am not surprised at this, since now I recall that in my last encounter with you, you were advocating "rational religionists."
Right. So how is a rational Objectivist's admiration for John Galt fundamentally different from a rational Hindu's admiration for Krishna ?
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You are equivocating on the meaning of "unreal" (or, equivalently, "real"). When you say that John Galt is "unreal," you mean it in the literary sense of "not a real human being that has ever lived." This has a legitimate use in characterizing fiction, and one may thus accurately say, in that context, "John Galt is not real." However, in the quote by Rand, she is using "unreal" in the sense of "never existing period" or "fantasy." John Galt does exist--as a fictional character in a novel--and fictional characters offer plenty of value, otherwise we wouldn't spend time reading about them.
I agree that fictional characters offer plenty of value, but I don't agree that they are real; hence the adjective "fictional".
Why do you classify "fantasy" as unreal, but "fiction" as real ?
Isn't engaging in the enjoyment of either a form of self-deception ?
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If you are serious about this -- if this is not meant as a silly joke -- then at least educate yourself and look up the logical fallacy of equivocation.The fallacy of equivocation is often used with words that have a strong emotional content and many meanings. These meanings often coincide within proper context, but the fallacious arguer does a semantic shift, slowly changing the context as he goes in such a way to achieve equivocation by equating distinct meanings of the word.
Could you please tell me which word or concept I'm equivocating on ?
Another way of stating the issue I'm interested in might be "when is self-deception not dishonesty" ?
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How is John Galt not real?
I consider his unreality to be pretty obvious. There is no such person, there is no evidence of his having actually existed. I think asserting that he is real is the positive assertion, so the onus would be on you to prove it.
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John Galt says "Honesty is the recognition of the fact that the unreal is unreal and can have no value".
Yet John Galt is unreal, so any value ascribed to him must be done so dishonestly.
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Any opinions?
~Michael
I think I agree with you're general goal here to find some persuasive and difficult-to-rebut arguments against Objectivism. I do that to some extent by listening to archives of collectivist radio talk shows (like Thom Hartman). It helps to clarify your ideas to have to defend them.
On this note, I think you'll get more out of a face-to-face with an anti-Objectivist philosophy professor than you would from anything you'll read.
Your superficial approach, while it will make a good "ice breaker", sounds a lot like the arguments I hear in favor of religion, and religion almost always has a lot of really bad philosophy associated with it, so I wouldn't expect it to hold much sway with this professor. I generally second Chumley's advice. Try to listen more and avoid arguing on the spot - ask for clarification if something unclear, but don't waste your time trying to "win" an argument with him or change his mind. Of course, by trying to get clear ideas out of him, you might end up changing his mind anyway.
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So anyway, what threads do you guys recommend?
Both my kids are in high school and like "Hot Topic".
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The primacy of identity may be regarded as a correction of the primacy of existence, an idea that is profound and meaningful, but flawed.
Neither is flawed. They are both true. Existence is identity.
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Centuries ago, the man who was—no matter what his errors—the greatest of your philosophers, has stated the formula defining the concept of existence and the rule of all knowledge: A is A. A thing is itself. You have never grasped the meaning of his statement. I am here to complete it: Existence is Identity, Consciousness is Identification.
The primacy of identity is just a different perspective on the primacy of existence. They both name the same fact in reality.
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With all due respect to any Objectivists who may be currently questioning some of ARI's policies, and hoping to avoid rekindling the flame-war it was part of, I'd like to quote what I think is a brilliant observation about this that Peikoff made in his May, 1989 article "Fact and Value":
Such people literally have no concept of "objectivity" in regard to values. Their accusations, therefore, are expressions of their own actual philosophy and inner state. The typical (though not invariable) pattern in this kind of case is that the accuser started out in Objectivism as a dogmatist, cursing or praising people blindly, in obedience, as he thought, to his new-found "authorities." Then at last his pent-up resentment at this self-made serfdom erupts — and he becomes an angry subjectivist, denouncing the "excessive anger" of those who make moral judgments. The swing from intrinsicism to subjectivism, however, is not a significant change; these philosophies are merely two forms in which the notion of "non-objective value" rules a man's brain. -
This sounds to me like an attempt to claim "you can't define consciousness; therefor it doesn't exist".
If you have OPAR, go the the part where Peikoff gives an example of how to argue with people who deny axioms.
If you don't have OPAR, get a copy.
Don't let your anger at your teacher or the situation cloud your ability to think clearly. Try to use this as a opportunity to really observe "philosophy in action", and to experience first-hand the real battle we're fighting today.
...those who fight for the future, live in it today. -
This detachment between self and events in the world can lead to a whole host of psychological problems and disorders: clinical depression, paralyzing anxiety, and much else.
This is almost the exact same warning that Christians issue with respect to the nihilism that results from scientific materialism's denial of consciousness.
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The alternative to coming up with a different party name is joining the current Capitalism Party in sufficient numbers to effectively "take it over".
In addition to the Capitalism party, I've found a website for a Capitalist Party in the U.K., and a meetup for a Capitalist Partiy on meetup.com.
The manifesto on the capitalism one looks mostly acceptable to me, but it does make some rather exaggerated claims like Chumley pointed out.
I would feel uncomfortable making public presentations with people who made claims like that, or who talked about biological immortality or some of the other NeoTech points.
But if these people have half the confidence, drive, and energy that they seem to from the writing, that should be extremely helpful in promoting Capitalism.
(BTW - if NeoTech provides some basic pro-reason, pro-individualism, pro-capitalism ideas, and leads people to check out Objectivism, I fail to see the harm in it.)
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I have been a Neo-Tech reader for a few years now, and I had recently begun researching Objectivism and came across this site...
I'm not sure I can answer your question, but I have one for you.
I've read some of the Neo-Tech literature, and I actually thought it was quite interesting. My impression is that the Neo-Tech "movement" is basically a multi-level-marketing organization marketing Neo-Tech literature, as opposed to soap or vitamins or something. Does this sound correct ?
GoodSearch.com
in Activism for Reason, Rights, Reality
Posted
Thanks for the tip, Cogito.
I've been using this for about a year now and it's a fine search engine. It's gone down a couple times so I just use another one when that happens. It gives me a cookie, so the browser remembers that my selected "charity" (I prefer to think of it as a small investment) is "Ayn Rand Institute the Center for the Advancement of Objectivism - ARI (Irvine, CA) ID: 43242".
So far GoodSearch.com users have raised:
2006: $67.67
2007: $264.95
2008: $15.04
Total: (Since Inception 27514 searches) $348.04
for ARI.