RobertNasir

A recent discussion on the History Valley Podcast. It's good to see that Valliant & Fahy's work is getting attention.

While I am not an Objectivist woman, since my bride has taken a moment to reply to your query, I too will offer my opinion, based on experience. " ... is being old-fashioned in one's behavior in a relationship un-objectivist?" No. Not by a country mile. " ... several members voiced their opinions that women don't like flowers, and don't want you to be polite, etc." To the extent that this can be generalized, they are wrong. "Has the world really come to that?" The world? Nope. The majority? Un-uh. A large number of "guys", including a gaggle of young Objectivist bucks on some forum? Perhaps. "Do all other rational people really believe that it is a bad idea to give a woman flowers as an expression of interest?" No. Substitute "most" for "all" and it's still "no". Try "some" and I'm still doubtful. "A few knuckle-draggers"? Maybe so. "Do all other rational people really believe that being cocky is the best approach for winning a woman over?" That one practically answers itself. Does a really good woman find "Clever" attractive? Yes. How about "Charming"? Yes'm. "Humorous"? Ditto. "Self-confident"? Oh, hell, yes! But "Cocky?" What? Are you serious? "Is that kind of early behavior really condusive to a successful relationship, or does it just successfully line up a long row of flings?" C. Nope of the above. "I am NOT attracted to cockiness, at all." If, by cockiness, you mean an exaggerated and/or false show of confidence, or braggadocio, you are well served by your distaste for the trait. "The thought of being with a cocky guy just seems like more work than its worth; just another dumb barrier an individual erects to supposedly "smooth out" the introduction process." Very insightful. "Guys that act like 'jerks' may attract lots of women..." Generally untrue ... but to the extent that this does play out, it's not of great value to the "guys" ... and it is sad that there are guys ... including some Objectivist guys ... who don't seem to know better. Of course, as you say, it will hinder their happiness in the long run. Not to mention the happiness of the women who deal with them. "And two, are there actually any objectivist guys out there who have found this 'be a jerk and don't give a woman anything' approach successful?" Sure - except that what you get isn't worth getting. "Just curious how isolated I may be in my opinions on this one." Though you may be uniquely perceptive on these issues, you may trust that your general understanding and evaluation are not unusual at all. All the best to you!

I agree! The decision to take a good man's woman is not to be taken lightly. We all know the wise words of the philosopher Jagger: You Can't Always Get What You Want. But here, that's just a gentle reminder of the greater truth: that which you want is often the last thing you should pursue. Guys (and gals too) often cringe when advised to introspect (arg!), and IN WRITING, ON PAPER (DOUBLE ARG!). But Amy's advice is worth it's weight in your future happiness. --- Robert "been there, several times, on both sides, learnt th' hard way" Nasir