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Selflessness and the ego

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I just finished reading the fountainhead, and understand its message of how living for one's own selfish satisfaction enriches the ego which leads to innovation, while living for the approval of others (being selfless or a "second hander") does not compliment the ego. This seems false however, as recieving approval obviously reinforces an ego.

My question is, must the ego be exclusively associated with complete selfishness?

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This seems false however, as recieving approval obviously reinforces an ego.

Not so obviously. This requires considerable clarification. Receiving approval from Hillary Clinton might influence a lot of egos, but certainly not mine. And even then, for what is the approval received? Etc.

My question is, must the ego be exclusively associated with complete selfishness?

On its face your question is unclear. You should try to state it more clearly.

If your question is really "Should a person's own interests always be his primary goal?", the answer is yes. If your question is really "Can a person rationally value the approval of others?", the answer is sometimes. If your question is really "Does pursuit of one's selfish interests require that others suffer a detriment?", the answer is no.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As an extention of my first question, do all private businesses not work for the approval of others? In order to derive profit, businesses must fulfill a demand set by others in society. A productive innovator does not only search internally for inspiration, but must identify what others enjoy and prefer.

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As an extention of my first question, do all private businesses not work for the approval of others? In order to derive profit, businesses must fulfill a demand set by others in society. A productive innovator does not only search internally for inspiration, but must identify what others enjoy and prefer.

You are using several different meaning of approval under the same name, which creates the confusion and leads to the question you asked.

1. "You are a great industrialist" is an approval based on your standard of value towards another person.

2. "This product is good, I'll buy it" is an assessment of a product and isn't directed at the person(s) who made it.

Don't clamp these two different ideas together.

And, btw "others" don't set the demand. It's the producers who set the standard of the demand by creating new things which "others" take years to accommodate to. Example: computers and how many of "others" can use it well.

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As an extention of my first question, do all private businesses not work for the approval of others?

Do they? If they all did, would that mean the external approval is what man needs to realize self-esteem (and subsequently happiness) from his productive achievement?

No, I don't think all businesses work for the approval of others. And no, not all men need approval from others. Invariably, if you base you happiness and motivation on the approval of others, you will be disappointed. Someone (perhaps many someones) somewhere will not appreciate something that you know otherwise to have been a good productive achievement. The approval of others may be a consideration, but it does not have to be. I suspect there are lots of musicians that write and perform music write about what's important to them, in a style that they think is important.

Also, I think you are package-dealing "productivity" with "making money". How much money does a person have to make before he becomes productive? How many people have to approve of someone's product before they gain self-esteem from their achievement?

I can tell you that a carpenter can gain satisfaction from making just one finely crafted chair, whereas 10 customers come in and hate it. The eleventh customer comes in and buys the chair. Whose opinion do you put stock in out of those 11 people? None of them, as far as it concerns your self-esteem from achievement of building that chair. Now when you throw in considerations of marketability, you may have to be more considerate of what will sell. So then, you may find a style of chair that more people wil buy, but YOU found that style, and YOU finely crafted it. That is where the sense of achievement comes from. And you may still gain considerable satisfaction from making that less popular chair from time to time, knowing that perhaps it may not sell as often.

Edited by RationalBiker
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I just finished reading the fountainhead, and understand its message of how living for one's own selfish satisfaction enriches the ego which leads to innovation, while living for the approval of others (being selfless or a "second hander") does not compliment the ego. This seems false however, as recieving approval obviously reinforces an ego.

My question is, must the ego be exclusively associated with complete selfishness?

It is possible to be selfish and receive approval, though not because you live for the approval of others. In the first sense you use the term to mean duty to others (their is no reception of a positive evaluation), in the second sense you use it to mean receiving compliments/admiration (receiving a positive evaluation)

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I wonder where does the source of these second-hand ideas come from.

After all, it is self-evident through introspection that a realization of the power of your own ability and its relation to the ability to live provides a very powerful boost to your own "ego," though I'd use this word only to mean your own self-evaluation of yourself. Approval of others doesn't even come close to that. So a good directed introspection clearly shows the right path.

So, the options here are either lack of any skill, lack of ability to introspect, and finally evasion from introspection. I doubt lack of skill could cause any problems, since even ability to introspect or simply leave is something positive to start from. And ability to introspect ought to exist in all people expect for ones with mental disease maybe. So, it only leaves the option of evading the knowledge from introspection. It kind of feels like that sometimes from looking at people who don't seem to want to accept the idea of egoism and keep looking for some other sources of your own value. Weird.

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Exactly what idea, Olex? Isn't it fair to say that if one introspects, one will find that one derives pleasure from being productive, purposeful, creative etc. and also that one derives pleasure from the recognition one receives from others? It does take some more questions and some unravelling to understand how those two aspects are not contradictory.

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Exactly what idea, Olex?
The idea that approval of others is a serious contender alongside in terms of emotional return (or boost in self-esteem) with self-evaluation and feeling of efficacy from productive work.

Isn't it fair to say that if one introspects, one will find that one derives pleasure from being productive, purposeful, creative etc. and also that one derives pleasure from the recognition one receives from others?
Yes, it is fair to say so. Both are definitely true.

It does take some more questions and some unraveling to understand how those two aspects are not contradictory.
My main interest here is comparing these two together. My point is that these two differ by a lot. I can't see how introspection would not provide that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "how those two aspects are not contradictory." Contradictory in what? As in the idea that only one is an actual source, and another one doesn't have any effect on the self-esteem?

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I'm not sure what you mean by "how those two aspects are not contradictory." Contradictory in what?
Contradictory to each other. Someone might think it a contradictory to claim they are independent when they desire the friendship or love of other people, and may wonder if it as a sign of second-handedness (i.e. they might see it as a sign that they are getting their self-esteem from the approval of others). My point was not that they are right to think so, but that this isn't enough proof of evasion. Often, it is just that they have not narrowed down "others" further to "specific others", or that they have not taken that narrower focus further to see that it leads back to themselves.
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I just finished reading the fountainhead, and understand its message of how living for one's own selfish satisfaction enriches the ego which leads to innovation, while living for the approval of others (being selfless or a "second hander") does not compliment the ego. This seems false however, as recieving approval obviously reinforces an ego.

My question is, must the ego be exclusively associated with complete selfishness?

The next book you should read is Ayn Rand's The Virtue of Selfishness. She very clearly and succinctly answers this issue.

I think you may be a bit misguided on one thing, though - selfishness does not create the ego; the ego is the cause and justification of selfish action. In Rand's meaning, selfishness is (basically) acting in a manner that benefits the quantity and quality of your life, and selflessness is that which acts against your life. Your ego is your self, so acting in a selfless manner is, in effect, working against your own mind and your own life.

Any value you selfishly pursue requires first that you know you can achieve it. If you lack a skill, you develop it. If you lack money, you earn it. You do what it takes to earn your highest values, which means having intelligence, ability, ambition, discipline, and confidence - all are applications of a man's ego. A broken man has none of those qualities - he is confused, inept, content, apathetic, servile, and second-guessing himself all the time - and he achieves little beyond momentary and meaningless satisfaction … even if he appears confident and able or enjoys some success.

Ego is the difference between men like Howard Roark and men like Peter Keating - or between Lance Armstrong and Lane Staley - true happiness versus the ephemeral, recognizing reality versus evading it.

Edited by Lemuel
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By the way...What is the definition of ego? It sounds like consciousness to me (and it is defined so by various dictionaries), and yet Lemuel, for example, is using it to denote a particular part of consciousness as something that is a backbone for other attributes of consciousness. (Am I correct, Lemuel?)P.S. I also noticed that Objectivist literature doesn't use "ego." (Or very infrequently.) I agree with that since I don't see what is so special about ego to use it a concept when discussing topics about consciousness.

Contradictory to each other. Someone might think it a contradictory to claim they are independent when they desire the friendship or love of other people, and may wonder if it as a sign of second-handedness (i.e. they might see it as a sign that they are getting their self-esteem from the approval of others).
Ah, I see.
My point was not that they are right to think so, but that this isn't enough proof of evasion. Often, it is just that they have not narrowed down "others" further to "specific others", or that they have not taken that narrower focus further to see that it leads back to themselves.
Right, I knew it wasn't your position. That's a good point about "others." I actually saw people mess this up before and look puzzled when the difference is explained to them.OK, I concede that there are more things involved here than self-evident introspection.
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