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DarkWaters

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There is a fantastically clear op-ed on Islam and its political, social and ideological consequences by Ayaan Hirsi Ali in the Washington Post today. I recommend it to all who wish to be more informed on this religion.

Here is the URL: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...id=opinionsbox1

Edited by DarkWaters
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Insightful article on Islam religion, thanks, but:

It is through the first two of these five groups [of Muslims] that progress and reform [of Islam] will come.

"Reform"? Reforming means leaving major parts of a body in tact. Definitely, a wrong way to approach Islam.

Rather weird to see a "critic" of Islam speak about atrocities of Islam and then look for a reform. Maybe next we should reform the ideology that killing is OK? I mean: "Com'n".

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"Reform"? Reforming means leaving major parts of a body in tact. Definitely, a wrong way to approach Islam.

What people mean when they speak of reform regarding faith is what's happened with Christianity since the enlightment. Meaning Muslims should pick and choose such bits of the Koran as are compatible, or mostly compatible, with living in this world. In other words, Ms. Ali seeks to tame Islam.

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Insightful article on Islam religion, thanks, but:

"Reform"? Reforming means leaving major parts of a body in tact. Definitely, a wrong way to approach Islam.

Rather weird to see a "critic" of Islam speak about atrocities of Islam and then look for a reform. Maybe next we should reform the ideology that killing is OK? I mean: "Com'n".

Given what I learned about the views of Ayaan Hirsi Ali from both her articles and her interviews, I think you are being overly critical of her use of the word "reform". I suspect she means to eliminate all of the harmful elements from Islam that lead to the subjugation and mutilation of women, the assault on reason and the waging of war in the name of Allah. What elements of Islam did she insist must be kept that you object to? Obviously the mystic and altruistic elements are still bad, but at least permissible so as long as they are not intertwined with government.

I think her position on Islam is the right way to approach the treating the faith in the present geopolitical context. From my understanding, she wishes to reform Islam even better than the way how Thomas Aquinas reformed Christianity.

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Yeah, maybe there are grounds for benefit of a doubt, but reforming religions did tame them a bit, but Christianity is now a big problem again in USA. Taking in account, the nature of Islam, which is much crazier than Christianity, I really doubt such reform is possible. In order to tame one would have to remove so much, that the word "reform" becomes very misleading. What would actually remain in Islam after such "reform"?

But, I'll give some benefit of the doubt, since I've only read the article.

edit: clarifications

Edited by Olex
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Given what I learned about the views of Ayaan Hirsi Ali from both her articles and her interviews, I think you are being overly critical of her use of the word "reform". I suspect she means to eliminate all of the harmful elements from Islam that lead to the subjugation and mutilation of women, the assault on reason and the waging of war in the name of Allah. What elements of Islam did she insist must be kept that you object to? Obviously the mystic and altruistic elements are still bad, but at least permissible so as long as they are not intertwined with government.

I think her position on Islam is the right way to approach the treating the faith in the present geopolitical context. From my understanding, she wishes to reform Islam even better than the way how Thomas Aquinas reformed Christianity.

My understanding of her position is that she is "Secular Muslim" which I interpret to mean she identifies herself as coming from Muslim culture but is not religious. Of course if she were an objectivist she would simply call herself an rational individualist, but hey, nobody's perfect (and between you, me and the emoticons, this chick has stared down more intimidation than most of us will ever deal with).

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My understanding of her position is that she is "Secular Muslim" which I interpret to mean she identifies herself as coming from Muslim culture but is not religious. Of course if she were an objectivist she would simply call herself an rational individualist, but hey, nobody's perfect (and between you, me and the emoticons, this chick has stared down more intimidation than most of us will ever deal with).

She is an atheist, not a "secular muslim", whatever that means.

She asked the last question in this Christopher Hitchens vs. Al Sharpton debate.

She even points out the problem with infinite regression. That is to say if the Universe needs a creator, why doesn't god.

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Yeah, maybe there are grounds for benefit of a doubt, but reforming religions did tame them a bit, but Christianity is now a big problem again in USA.

Although she does not mention it in this article, I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali does underestimate the threat of Evangelical Christianity in the United States. She has made repeated claims that most Americans do not take the Holy Bible seriously. I suppose this is true when compared to the deference many Muslims show towards the Koran.

What would actually remain in Islam after such "reform"?

Nothing that would be of any value to us. However, aiming to reduce worldwide Islam to mystic stories and traditional practicing of the Salah, Sawm, Zakat and Hajj is a good contemporary political and intellectual goal. In other words, ensuring a complete global separation of mosque and state and justly punishing any individual who violates rights in the name of Islam. Of course, this should be true for all forms of mysticism.

But, I'll give some benefit of the doubt, since I've only read the article.

I think your skepticism of individuals claiming to only want to "reform" Islam is healthy since it warrants explanation. I just wanted to admonish against disdaining Ayaan Hirsi Ali for using the word "reform" because she seems to be pretty good on this issue.

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  • 4 months later...

On the subject of a more tolerant Islam, here's a clip from Kuwait TV. Two scholars answer this question: is a muslim free to change his faith? The scholar in priestly robes says, "No", and suggests killing such people, or putting them in an insane asylum. He suggests this, while smiling sweetly. More sad is that the TV audience, votes "No" by a large majority.

The above would not make it worth watching. I was cheering for the other scholar (the Egyptian) who argued adamantly that freedom of choice was an absolute and that forcing a person to have faith was pointless. The TV host also seemed sympathetic to this more secular position.

Here is another clip, this time from Al Jazeera. Once again, the despicable priest, with the audience supporting his position by vast majority, but also the more secular muslim, putting up a passionate fight.

These secular muslims are brave.

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On the subject of a more tolerant Islam, here's a clip from Kuwait TV. Two scholars answer this question: is a muslim free to change his faith?

::: SNIP :::

These secular muslims are brave.

They certainly are. Apostasy is considered the worst crime according to Islamic law, worse than rape, murder, etc. Being an apostate is even considered worse than being Jewish or Christian. Islamic scholars at least acknowledge that Jews and Christians are on the correct path to Allah but were misled by the wrong prophet. However, an apostate is an individual who was exposed to the truth that is Islam but then rejected it. This is why all radical Muslims unapologetically clamor for apostates to be punished by death; nothing is more insulting to them.

Yes, these secular Muslims are very brave indeed.

Edited by DarkWaters
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