What constitutes a hero in real life?

[pvtmorriscsa]

Also, and this is addressed to everyone, why has no one mentioned the Ancient, and especially Greek, concept of hero?

I just finished reading the book, "Gates of Fire", by Steven Pressfield. It is a novel about the battle at Thermopolyae.

I think Leonidas the Spartan King at the battle would be an excellent example of an Ancient hero. His response to the emmisary of the Persian king's request that they Greeks surrender and lay down their weapons, is particullary heroic. His response was "Come and Get Them".

It's right up there with McAuliffe's response to the german generals request for the allies to surrender at Bastogne.

By the way here is a review of the book.

http://www.dailyobjectivist.com/Heroes/Arm...ingLeonidas.asp

[Betsy]

I don't understand your distinction, yet. Why not just consider Roark and Leonardo Da Vinci as two different kinds of a personal hero? I admire both. Or are you saying that everyone ought to admire Da Vinci, him being a unversal hero, and only some will admire Roark, because his virtues are specialized?

What I mean is that there are men, in fact and in fiction, who are objectively heroic and who embody rational virtues. In addition, there are heroes each of us may look to for personal inspiration as we live our own lives, because they embody optional virtues which pertain to our lives, but may not be as meaningful to every rational person.

Thus, I admire Roark, but Da Vinci and Franklin inspire me more.

[MinorityOfOne]

Betsy,

A little off-topic, but have you read The Memory Cathedral? I just finished it up, and I really liked it. If you're not familiar with it, it's a (rather stretched) fictionalization of Leonardo's life by Jack Dann. While Leonardo is not thoroughly consistent hero as portrayed in this book, it brings many of his accomplishments to life in a very inspiring way. For instance, one of the premises it works with is this: there is a stretch of about four years in Leonardo's life about which not much is known, but there is some evidence that he travelled to the Middle East. In The Memory Cathedral, he had succeeded in building working flying machines (among other inventions), and he left to use them in assistance in the war against the Turks.

It's not necessarily a book I'd recommend to everyone, though I do think it would be a worthwhile read. There's a very heavy tragic element to the book which can be attributed more to the author than to any facts about Leonardo's life. But if you have a particular interest in Leonardo da Vinci, you would probably love it.

If you have any books about Leonardo to recommend, I'd love to hear about them. I've been browsing through the book published by the Met during their exhibit last year which contains hundreds of his drawings and some of the background about them. There's some fantastic stuff -- now I just have to get a book with all of his paintings and similar background info. And, of course, as many biographies as I can get my hands on.

[Free Capitalist]

Betsy, so you make a distinction between an admirable man, and an inspirational man. I hadn't thought of it that way. I wonder, however, if you can have a concept of a hero without the concept of "personal"? I understand what you say about a man you admire, but why not call him an admirable man instead of a hero? For me, the concept "hero" denotes something personal and private, so I call by that name those whose extraordinary qualities have a special significance to me, not only admirable qualities in general.

I think our categories are similar, and the names just different.

[Betsy]

If you're not familiar with it, it's a (rather stretched) fictionalization of Leonardo's life by Jack Dann.  While Leonardo is not thoroughly consistent hero as portrayed in this book, it brings many of his accomplishments to life in a very inspiring way.

I tend to avoid fictionalized, "Irving Stone-ish" biographies, but I love well-researched, well-written biographies like The Divine Sarah by Arthur Gold and Robert Fizdale about the actress Sarah Bernhardt that I recently read.

[SMS]

I've always loved watching cartoons. Needless to say, that has made me an object for ridicule: "You're not a kid!", "Look at him!", etc. The kind that makes you think of what human being would be incapable of such personal attachment. I know exactly what Mrs. Speicher means when she talks of personal values. I love cartoons because I love them, not because "people" should or because "Objectivists" (synonymous with "people" in this context) do. That is the one most precious quality a human being has - of being himself - and that is the quality in him that is constantly under attack.

By the way, anyone interested in telling me what cartoon heroes they like? Or what they think makes them "heroes" in the proper sense of the term? Personally though, I've never stopped enjoying the ol' Tom and Jerry cartoons. A fun way of learning "tit for tat", or "as you sow, so shall you reap", don't you think?

[y_feldblum]

SMS, check this out!

[Free Capitalist]

Actually, I like Spongebob. Though he's not heroic in the full sense of the term if you judge him across many episodes, there are some episodes that are just extra precious and rare today. First of all, the most prominent thing about Spongebob is that he's always smiling. I mean, those cheeks are almost always facing up. No matter what happens, he's always so cheery in the morning, saying 'hello' to the world, to flowers, to people passing by. He's always optimistic, and always ready to have fun, and find some new enjoyment. Then, though some would find his job as a fry cook for a fast food restaurant daunting, he's always very proud of it, and very deferential to the owner/boss. He never complains about working there, always berates his lazy coworkers (who don't care about doing a good job in a fast food place), and treasures the extra tasty burger (Krabby Patty) recipe with utmost secrecy.

My favorite episode is entitled "Paper". The grumpy boring guy (Squidward) wants to throw out a crumpled piece of paper, and Spongebob asks to buy it, with utter seriousness. Squidward asks why he wants to pay money for the useless paper, and Spongebob answers that it's actually a very valuable thing! Squidward, being an utterly cynical character, makes fun of Spongebob's delusions, and gives it for free, thinking that he will have fun and laughs at Spongebob's expense. Then, for the rest of the episode, Spongebob proceeds to have so much fun with that one single piece of paper, that even I want to take it and play with it. I mean, he does so many things with it, finds so many ways to make it fun, that it's unbelievable. He makes paper hats, origami, and dozens of other things, having a complete blast, seemingly without end to what imaginative way he can use the paper for next. In the end, Squidward gets so jealous that he begs Spongebob to buy that "useless" piece of paper back.

In another favorite episode, the title of which I forgot, Spongebob is learning how to drive. Unfortunately he has a lot of trouble, getting "locked up" at the sign of the first obstacle, and always fails the exam by crashing the car and hurting the driving instructor, who is always carried away by the ambulance. Then he cooks up a scheme with his buddy to cheat on the exam, where his buddy (who doesn't have the problem) will guide him over the radio, and Spongebob will listen to the hidden speaker and obey the commands to manoeuver through the obstacles. So, he takes the driving test again, and his instructor is so very impressed, and so dearly glad that they haven't once crashed yet. It's truly a miracle how Spongebob suddenly is driving perfectly and flawlessly. The finish line is within reach, they're on the final stretch, and finally Spongebob realizes that it's not his driving skills that are letting him win, and that he is passing the test unfairly. He has a crisis of conscience, tearfully confessing to the instructor that he's cheating, that he feels terrible, and doesn't want to pass! The instructor realizes that if Spongebob doesn't pass now, that means they will have to do more driving in the future, which will mean more hurtin' for her. She begs Spongebob to just drive on, they are practically past the finish line, but Spongebob swerves away at the very last moment, refusing to complete the test. He crashes, and they take the instructor away in the ambulance; she is now growing to accept this perpetual trip to the hospital, after each Spongebob's driving test, as inevitable.

Then there's the slapstick comedy. Patrick Starfish, a dimwitted but friendly neighbor once says something smart, all of a sudden. Spongebob beams at him, saying "Patrick, your genius is showing!" Patrick immediately crosses his legs, looks down and yells in fear, "WHERE?!"

Not all episodes are like this, however, and there are some I would not recommend. Spongebob loves to play with animals and his boss once amiably asks him, the employee, to capture them all and bring them in. Spongebob does so, thinking it's all for fun, but the boss takes all the animals and forces them to work in his evil factory without Spongebob's consent. In the end, Spongebob breaks in and sets them all free (though his deference for the boss, and for the sanctity of the boss/worker relationship, remains untarnished).

Many of the episodes also have just silly humor without much point, silliness just for silliness' sake, lacking the kind of moral lessons present in the two episodes mentioned above. But overall, Spongebob does have a few rare and impressive qualities; I recommend checking the cartoon out, because once in a while you can catch some episodes that will make it worth your while.

--

[AMERICONORMAN]

I don’t watch cartoons but I do love sitcoms and television drama. My favorite hero on t.v. today is Jack McCoy on Law and Order. He’s a man of passion, integrity, courage and love of the law, he’s also a wonderful patriot. This television show really excites me. I am so impressed by the show’s quality and Jack’s character that often my excitement approaches the sexual.

I would love to see a spin off show where Jack is a supreme court judge. This character could do a great deal to change America around.

Americo.

[AshRyan]

In response to the original question posed by this thread ("What Constitutes A Hero?"), I just thought I'd post a link to a short piece I posted on my club website when we went and saw Cyrano de Bergerac, examining heroism through the character of Cyrano and distinguishing it from the popular false view that heroism is selflessness (for an example of that view, see the new Spider-Man movie). I think it's pretty good, for having written it in about fifteen minutes off the top of my head, and almost a year ago.

I also recommend Dr. Bernstein's lecture "The Mind As Hero in Atlas Shrugged". He makes some good comments about heroism both in the lecture itself and in the Q&A period (in the Harvard lecture series).

[AMERICONORMAN]

Ash,

You wouldn’t happen to have lying around the exact definition of heroism that Bernstein comes up with in that lecture. I heard that lecture about seven years ago and have no idea where I wrote it down. I thought about this lecture when I read the topic-starter but I only have a vague recollection. I remember a main characteristic was: overcoming obstacles.

Thanks,

Americo.

P.S. To you and anyone else who reads this—which is related to “hero”—know where in Rand’s writings does she say, in reference to the Declaration of Independence, something like,: if it is ever proper for man to kneel, it is while reading the declaration of independence. I wanted to send it to a friend who tried to make me feel guilty for refusing to cover his shift this Sunday so he could go on some date. I pretty much laughed in his face, so I wanted to send him the quote so he could understand. But I couldn’t find it!

[AshRyan]

Sorry, my notes on that lecture are at home in Utah, so I don't have access to them. From memory, it was something like "loyalty to values in the face of significant obstacles." Then he divided it up and talked about why each part of the definition (values, loyalty, obstacles) is necessary. I actually think something is missing from my recollection of it, because it seems like there were four components to his definition.

[deedlebee]

I don’t watch cartoons but I do love sitcoms and television drama.  My favorite hero on t.v. today is Jack McCoy on Law and Order.  He’s a man of passion, integrity, courage and love of the law, he’s also a wonderful patriot.  This television show really excites me.  I am so impressed by the show’s quality and Jack’s character that often my excitement approaches the sexual.

I must agree! Law and Order is definitely a favorite show. Instead all the crime scene dramas that glorify the horrible, I really get a thrill out of seeing a case go to completion. Jack McCoy is a wonderful character

I've always loved watching cartoons. Needless to say, that has made me an object for ridicule: "You're not a kid!", "Look at him!", etc. The kind that makes you think of what human being would be incapable of such personal attachment. I know exactly what Mrs. Speicher means when she talks of personal values. I love cartoons because I love them, not because "people" should or because "Objectivists" (synonymous with "people" in this context) do.

I totally agree. I still love animation and still get the same ribbings. "That's only for 8 year old boys..." I don't know if it's rationalizing to say this, but I do think there are reasons for enjoying cartoons on their own merits. Art is only limited by the artist. A cartoon character looks as he should and acts as he should. No accidental blunders by a poor actor. I find the work that goes into making an animation a phenomenal achievement and with a good work, I'm always impressed. (Consequently, I thought Finding Nemo was supurb, even if the story was simplistic.)

As for specifics, I grew up on Bugs Bunny. He's smart, suave and (almost) always wins. He also seems to enjoy life a great deal. While I enjoyed the Don Bluth animation of The Secret of NIMH, the substory of the rats presented in the novel was a bit lost. That said, I would consider the Rats of NIMH, as they are in the book, a group of heros. For those that haven't read the book (by Robert C. O'Brien), the main storyline is about a mouse whose son is sick and needs to find help to move him. The help she finds is with the rats.

These particular rats were subjected to experiments earlier in their life which subsequently gave them the ability to think and reason. They became intelligent and escaped from the lab, only to wind up living just like "rats". Stealing from others to sustain their life.

First, we realized that finding the Toy Tinker's truck, which had seemed like such an enormous strok of luck, had in fact led us into the very trap we should have avoided.  As a result we were now stealing more than ever before: not only food, but electricity and water.  Even the air we breathed was drawn in by a stolen fan, run by stolen current.  It was this, of course, that made our life so easy that it seemed pointless.  We did not have enough work to do because a thief's life is always based on somebody else's work. (170)

....

All these things we were worried about and talked about and puzzled over.  But we could not find any easy answer -- because there was none.  There was, however, a hard answer. (171)

I think the rats are heroic because they recognize the destruction to their own lives in their actions and make the very tough (because they are still rats living in a world of humans and didn't yet have the ability to defend themselves) decision to stop stealing. They eventually set out to build an honest life, based on their own ability to think and plan. Personally, I think the story of the rats would have made a fine book on it's own.

[Dominique]

I want to reopen this thread because Donald Trump came up in the Environmentalism thread and got me thinking-other business men (Branson I think) being listed as much better examples of possible hero-ism (although I'm not sure if they would be the poster's heroes but that's what got me on this train of thought) and I wanted to see if we could get some examples of modern day heroes. I certainly would count Thomas Jefferson as one of mine ( I mentioned that to a friend of mine who is black and it caused a distressing rift in our relationship-the start of conversations which apparently upset her, because she said it was insensitive of me to value such a man and when I sent her the article from ARI on him it only made things worse and started a debate where I tried to explain Objectivism to no avail-but I digress) and I think the football player was recently mentioned also who listed Atlas as his favorite book-he could be a hero, though not one of mine personally since I don't follow football. I'm interested in this topic though and want to see who others would nominate. Persent day heroes being a bonus, and there seem to be so few- but I'm sure there alot to be seen in our military-I'd like the info to look up on people for possible posting on my blog as well. It tends to get so mucked up with political arguments I'd like to showcase the positive more often. So who do you think qualifies and why?

[Free Capitalist]

Also, I'm kind of embarassed I put Spongebob in this thread at all, I was confused at the time, sorry

But to contribute something substantive to the thread, I find my heroes in a number of places - AR's books, some of the men during the birth of America, and quite a few from the Ancient era. As Thomas Jefferson noted, unlike The Classical era, modern history doesn't afford much of a chance to find consistently moral men.

[Dominique]

Also, I'm kind of embarassed I put Spongebob in this thread at all, I was confused at the time, sorry

I enjoyed that post

As Thomas Jefferson noted, unlike The Classical era, modern history doesn't afford much of a chance to find consistently moral men.

That's what I was afraid of.

[Capitalism Forever]

modern history doesn't afford much of a chance to find consistently moral men.

What really matters, though, is not finding such men but being one.

[Free Capitalist]

Both are equally important, for different reasons. No man wants to be an island; such a condition is imposed, never chosen.