Possession and Romance

[DragonMaci]

Earlier in the chat I was discussing with whether or not lover "possess" each other in any sense. I was saying I don't like what that implies, that I don't like the idea of people "possessing" each other in any sense. Am I missing something? Because I don't see how that word "possess" applies to people in any sense.

[JMeganSnow]

Ownership takes on a different slant when you're using it in the context of a romantic relationship, because said ownership is granted by *permission* instead of by *force*. It is a source of great pride and happiness if the person you love above all else lets you call them "yours". They aren't making you the boss of them, they are a benevolent aristocrat bestowing a favor because they wish to.

[DragonMaci]

Ownership takes on a different slant when you're using it in the context of a romantic relationship, because said ownership is granted by *permission* instead of by *force*. It is a source of great pride and happiness if the person you love above all else lets you call them "yours". They aren't making you the boss of them, they are a benevolent aristocrat bestowing a favor because they wish to.

I still don't like the connotations of "ownership." Even if it is voluntary.

[Inspector]

I still don't like the connotations of "ownership." Even if it is voluntary.

It is possible you do not like it because you have not met the right sort of person - the sort of person who is worthy of it.

Also note that as the man, you are the one doing the owning, mostly. I've seen folks misinterpret this idea in Objectivism and think that it is meant to go both ways - this rightly offends their masculinity. Don't worry - it is not meant to go both ways equally.

[DragonMaci]

It is possible you do not like it because you have not met the right sort of person - the sort of person who is worthy of it.

Firstly, I loved a girl for a while that I think deserves it, but I have not seen her in 5 years, so she might of chaged a lot in that time. I did. Secondly, it is the idea of "owning" a person in any sense that I don't like.

Also note that as the man, you are the one doing the owning, mostly. I've seen folks misinterpret this idea in Objectivism and think that it is meant to go both ways - this rightly offends their masculinity. Don't worry - it is not meant to go both ways equally.

I am uncomfortable with it going any way.

Edited spelling.

Edited October 4, 2007 by DragonMaci

[Prometheus98876]

Maybe it would help if you tried to explain to us why you are uncomfortable with it...

[Inspector]

Firstly, I loved a girl for a while that I think deserves it, but I have not seen her in 5 years, so she might of chaged a lot in that time. I did. Seconly, it is the idea of "owning" a person in any sense that I don't like.

I am uncomfortable with it going any way.

Well, then the source is probably something else. Perhaps if you could explain what you think it is?

[DragonMaci]

Maybe it would help if you tried to explain to us why you are uncomfortable with it...

Because it gives me the impression of objectification of people, making them seem like objects. Because I don't like the idea of "owning a person" as that implies they are property.

Well, then the source is probably something else. Perhaps if you could explain what you think it is?

See above.

Note: the love for that girl was unrequitted and a feeling I had from ages 15-23 (I am 25 now).

[KendallJ]

I don't like the idea of people "possessing" each other in any sense.

Well, if it is simply an arbitrary "don't like", then no one who tries to convince you that possession is a valid concept will win will they. You don't like the idea in *any* sense? I would suggest you might need to loosen up on the meaning of the word a bit. Maybe you're too focused on #1 whereas the ones in bold might better connote what is meant.

pos·sess /pəˈzɛs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[puh-zes] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object)

1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own: to possess a house and a car.

2. to have as a faculty, quality, or the like: to possess courage.

3. (of a spirit, esp. an evil one) to occupy, dominate, or control (a person) from within: He thought he was possessed by devils.

4. (of a feeling, idea, etc.) to dominate or actuate in the manner of such a spirit: He was possessed by envy.

5. (of a man) to succeed in having sexual intercourse with.

6. to have knowledge of: to possess a language.

7. to keep or maintain (oneself, one's mind, etc.) in a certain state, as of peace, patience, etc.

8. to maintain control over (oneself, one's mind, etc.).

9. to impart to; inform; familiarize (often fol. by of or with): to possess someone of the facts of the case.

10. to cause to be dominated or influenced, as by an idea, feeling, etc.

11. to make (someone) owner, holder, or master, as of property, information, etc.: He possessed them of the facts.

12. to seize or take.

13. to gain or win.

14. to occupy or hold.

[DragonMaci]

Well, if it is simply an arbitrary "don't like", then no one who tries to convince you that possession is a valid concept will win will they. You don't like the idea in *any* sense? I would suggest you might need to loosen up on the meaning of the word a bit. Maybe you're too focused on #1 whereas the ones in bold might better connote what is meant.

I was basing it on the only definitions I knew. That is not arbitrary. It is working within the full extent of my knowledge. Futhermore, see my response to Prometheus98876 and Inspector.

pos·sess /pəˈzɛs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[puh-zes] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object)

1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own: to possess a house and a car.

2. to have as a faculty, quality, or the like: to possess courage.

3. (of a spirit, esp. an evil one) to occupy, dominate, or control (a person) from within: He thought he was possessed by devils.

4. (of a feeling, idea, etc.) to dominate or actuate in the manner of such a spirit: He was possessed by envy.

5. (of a man) to succeed in having sexual intercourse with.

6. to have knowledge of: to possess a language.

7. to keep or maintain (oneself, one's mind, etc.) in a certain state, as of peace, patience, etc.

8. to maintain control over (oneself, one's mind, etc.).

9. to impart to; inform; familiarize (often fol. by of or with): to possess someone of the facts of the case.

10. to cause to be dominated or influenced, as by an idea, feeling, etc.

11. to make (someone) owner, holder, or master, as of property, information, etc.: He possessed them of the facts.

12. to seize or take.

13. to gain or win.

14. to occupy or hold.

For starters, what is your source? Secondly, what does number 5 mean? Thirdly, what does the "fol." in number 9 mean? Fourthly, ideas and feelings do not dominate us. They can only influence us. So a part of number 10 is flawed, the "dominated" part. Fifthly, i don't like the connotations of number 12. Finally, I like number 13 and 14 could make sense, depending on eaxctly what is meant by that.

Anyway, numbers 5, 6, 10, 12, 13, and 14 are not definitions I have encountered before.

[aequalsa]

2. to have as a faculty, quality, or the like: to possess courage.

Not to imply that I have any problem with the other definitions as applied to romance but I like this idea. To possess a woman in the same way you possess a virtue. It's a pleasant thought. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that a woman's affection expresses your virtue, but it gets the point across nicely.

[DragonMaci]

Not to imply that I have any problem with the other definitions as applied to romance but I like this idea. To possess a woman in the same way you possess a virtue. It's a pleasant thought. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that a woman's affection expresses your virtue, but it gets the point across nicely.

I don't think that definition applies in this case. Things like courage are traits. A woman is not.

[prosperity]

I still don't like the connotations of "ownership." Even if it is voluntary.

I once read a book titled "open marriage"...it's not what the title sounds like. The main theme was that you belong with your partner, not to them. In essence, how to have a relationship and also retain your individuality.

http://www.amazon.com/Open-Marriage-Life-S...s/dp/087131438X

[aequalsa]

I don't think that definition applies in this case. Things like courage are traits. A woman is not.

A little delayed, but I must have missed this. What I meant by that is not that a woman is a trait, but that her own traits, in as much as they lead her to you, define you. More simply, someone this great(or not great for that matter) likes me. What does that say about me?

I mean it in terms of the "tell me what a man finds attractive and I'll tell you his philosophy of life," sense.