Thoughts on homo, hetero and bisexuality

[~Sophia~]

job well does little to increase ones ability to handle romantic rejection well, despite apparent similarities.

Yes it is not exactly the same but it is not uncommon for job seekers to have self esteem issues due to a long stream of rejections. I think the principle when it comes to how you deal with it - is the same.

Sometimes(on the rare occasion that it actually works) not stating everything explicitly in the context of a relationship is more enjoyable.

I actually don't disagree. Similarly, coming from a man: "Can I kiss you?" is better left unsaid. I don't think that this is in a significant conflict with what I said.

Edited November 14, 2007 by ~Sophia~

[4reason]

I used to think that gender and sexual preferences were enitrely psychological, ie, a a product of one's environment. But the more I read on the matter, and the more time I spend amongst the company of young children, the more I have realized that there must be some sort of biological factor. I have met quite a few young children, as young as three, in fact, who send up all sorts of flags in my thinking on what kind of relationshp they'll want to pursue when they're at the point to conceptually handle such a pursuit. And all of the homosexual people I have personally known in my life all claim to have "known" from a very young age. I'm not completely sold on either the nature or the nurture approach on this one; I'm afraid I'll have to fall back on the the old "it's a combination of the two" argument. But speaking of biological influence, one particularly interesting line of research going on out there in gender science is how prenatal stress hormone's may contribute to a an increased disposition for bi- and homosexuality. I don't have my source on that readily available at the location I am writing from, but if I find it, I will be glad to post it (or try to, assuming I can figure out how to post links and/or attachments).

As to all this talk of masculinty, worship, relationships, I thank you all for your insights. I, for one, am a heterosexual female and could not possibly conceive of being anything else. I've heard all the arguments, here and elsewhere, that love is about someone who shares your values and it shouldn't matter what gender they are, but when I reflect on my own sense of being "feminine," being worthy enough to deserve the conquest of someone I consider strong, confident, and, well, equipped in that complimentary way plays a huge role in making me feel like a woman. But strength is not the only appeal. I recently went through a break up, and with a lively spirit of curiosity, I accepted the offer of a date with a guy who noticed me reading Ayn Rand at a sandwich shop. We struck up a conversation, and he was quite interesting: attractive, intellectual, well versed in objectivism, ie, physically and intrllectually strong. But then on the second date, he nearly raped me, and not in the sexy Fountainhead sort of way (for I was not thinking like Dominique at the moment...). Was he masculine? Yes, in many ways, but his attempt to take the effect of sex with my body without earning the cause of my admiration for him clearly indicates that stregth is not the only appealing aspect of masculinty. He has to be moral, and moral in the rational sense. That is the type of man who would earn my interest. The kind of man who you can almost predict what he'll do and what he'll say because he's just that integrated. That's the kind of man I want to be ravished by. That's the only kind of man who deserves the conquest. He won't get the cheap thrill of bruising up my body like some would-be rapist; he will instead get the ecstasy of my appreciation for him, his values and myself expressed in its most purely sensual form.

Could I have that experience with a female? I don't think I could. I have never been attracted to any woman. I notice admirable and beautiful women, sure, but usually what I notice in them are things I admire about myself (it's nice to not have to look in the mirror all the time and to know there are other graceful, intelligent women out there!). Grace, wit, beauty, determination. Those are admirable traits for a woman, and I have those. But what I believe a man has to offer in return -- the physical capacity to conquer you, to take your energy and breathe away simply because he sees those traits, acknowledges their worth and wants nothing more than to deny you of them for just a little while. That's an incredibly sexy thought to me. Being conquered by a strong butch gal capable of the same physical feat, not so much. Is it because I biologically desire to have children and am thus programmed in some way to seek the physical affection of men only? Maybe, but I have conceptually thought about sex and attraction enough at my young age to know that my mind has the capacity to add so much more to the biological element of the whole thing. I have only had "relations" with one man in my life, but knowing what I know now about sex and myself and my values, I can't wait to return to that experience with my new sense of life to breathe into the whole scenario (a breath of life I also can't wait to have taken away from me for just a moment...). But I also know enough to not waste what I have to offer. Will it happen again? i don't know, but I can at least say with certainty it won't be with a woman.

Edited November 14, 2007 by 4reason

[intellectualammo]

Similarly, coming from a man: "Can I kiss you?" is better left unsaid.

Right. Especially the first kiss, in this context. How horribly unromantic that would be!

So it is always better to ask a direct question instead of dropping hints while hoping that the other will respond.

In the context you had said it in, for those said woman, yes, if it can be that draining on them, not explicitly knowing. But for those who know how to dance, such as I, know when they have found the right kind of partner, one who keeps giving you their hand, without having to actually give it.

Edited November 14, 2007 by intellectualammo

[Dorian]

I know of women who are attracted to women in the true sense, women who look & act like women. I know of women who are attracted to women who look very much like men. Likewise with men. I have a gay male friend who only likes burly men, and has stated he is annoyed by feminine males! Haha. I know of all sorts of variations when it comes to bisexuals.

So my hypothesis is that sexual preference is a result of both nature and nurture.

I think, for example, if a woman is attracted to women who look like men than her orientation is more of a result of psychology. You can quickly see the opposite scenarios or even the scenarios in between.

I think the primary reason I am straight is because of the physical side of it. I am only aroused by women. Perhaps because I am male this is true? Haha. I also enjoy the attention & personalities of women, but at the same time I often look for personality traits in women I see in myself. Maybe that's why I haven't had much luck in past relationships! People say opposites attract after all, maybe I should go after Christian communists and give up my hope of ever meeting a nice objectivist girl!

[DragonMaci]

I can't wait to return to that experience

I can't wait to experience it for the first time!

[JASKN]

I know of women who are attracted to women in the true sense, women who look & act like women. I know of women who are attracted to women who look very much like men. Likewise with men. I have a gay male friend who only likes burly men, and has stated he is annoyed by feminine males! Haha. I know of all sorts of variations when it comes to bisexuals.

So my hypothesis is that sexual preference is a result of both nature and nurture.

This is what I have determined as well. I have no exact idea as to what causes sexuality, but I have known apparently happy and healthy people in all sorts of romantic pair-ups of same and opposite genders. While the dominating-man/submissive female dynamic works for a lot of people (though the degrees vary even with that), it doesn't work for others. I see no advantage of one over the other, other than one's preferences don't seem to change much once they are established, and so it would be detrimental to try 'actracting' yourself to something else.

I see it as a breakdown of two: personality compatibility and bedroom compatibility. Or, what works for you mentally and sexually. Very broadly, in myself I haven't noticed much of a change in what I find attractive for both of those. The reason I split them is because they seem to exist independent of each other in a person's mind. For example, a woman might find clever or funny men to be attractive, or suave and confident men, or burly men who are good at fixing things, or whatever. Then, that same woman might like a more sensual sexual experience, or a rougher sex life, or she might be 'kinky.' But the 'mental' attraction from the first list doesn't seem to correlate to the sexual attraction from the second.

I find sexuality to be a pretty interesting subject, but I think we know a lot more about what makes people tick mentally (the nature of their ideas and the necessary results) than sexually. To me there is no good explanation for sexual orientation and sexual preferences as yet.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

I actually don't disagree. Similarly, coming from a man: "Can I kiss you?" is better left unsaid. I don't think that this is in a significant conflict with what I said.

In general, I agree with you; and as the male, I reserve the right to push the boundaries (short of using force of any kind). But this is highly contextual. I once dated someone visiting from another country that wasn't very Westernized, and their views on sex were -- well, let's say Victorian.

As I encouraged her to come to my apartment, her mother, who was also visiting, was rather upset that an American might be enticing her daughter -- so she called the police on me Really, I had to convince the police that I wasn't doing anything untowards with her against her will. Even though she spoke to the police -- in very broken English -- that she was fine, I was sure to ask her just about before doing any move on her. Which is probably a good thing, because the first time we kissed she actually swooned on me -- passed right out in shocked disbelief that I would want to kiss her -- and actually did it! -- after the third date.

I'm not going to say how far we got, but it was an exciting challenge. After dating for about six months, my patients was running out and I told her that within six more months we were either going to have to have sex or get married (yes, I fell in love with her); but she ran away! Sheesh....

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

After dating for about six months, my patients was running out and I told her that within six more months we were either going to have to have sex or get married (yes, I fell in love with her); but she ran away! Sheesh....

Nobody asked, but you might be wondering why I put a smilie face after that story....

Well, she basically had a choice between being rational or following her traditional ways -- and I was willing to be very patient with her, because she was making wonderful progress. She was here in the States on a six month visitor's visa to learn English as a second language, and I helped her out as much as I could using a little pocket translator that she had. Some of the conversations we had were hilarious in the mis-understandings, but, as they say, love is a universal language. And I managed to convey a lot about Objectivism to her. She was very bright and beautiful, but she had to fight not only her tradition, but her mother, and her brother (who introduced us, but wanted her to remain in her tradition), and her own self doubts. Given that I was offering her not only me , but also permanent residency and eventual U.S. citizenship -- I mean, it was like everything she ever wanted. It would have been a fairy tale come true.

But, as her legal time in the states was running out, and she said No to me, she had to either get married to an American or move back to her old country. She married within her tradition, had a child, and wasn't very happy about it at all.

She chose tradition over reason and paid the price for it