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Plastic Surgery - Faking Reality?

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I think that the overwhelming majority of people who use surgery to artificially improve their looks, are shallow, superficial, and generally rather unintelligent.

Those who are shallow, superficial, and unintelligent will be so whether or not they've had cosmetic surgery, and getting cosmetic surgery doesn't make someone shallow. Cosmetic surgery can be an action by a shallow individual, just as going to the gym can be an action by a shallow individual. Is every attractive person who goes to the gym to look even better a shallow person?

Then, by your standard, how good looking is "enough" such that getting cosmetic surgery implies shallowness?

I don't think getting plastic surgery in itself says anything about a person's character beyond "they wished to improve their looks." It's everything else about their life that determines their character.

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I think it says something about a person's self-esteem. If you've been disfigured, if you were born with an awkward body, or if you're one of those people who is just incredibly ugly, I see nothing wrong with trying to make yourself look normal.

But, if you'll notice, women who get breast implants are usually already attractive. To me, this suggests that they have nothing better on which to base their self-esteem. But, when they suddenly have huge tits, they somehow feel better about themselves. I view such women in the same manner that I view men who tie their self-esteem to their number of sexual conquests.

Besides...fake boobs look retarded.

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You can alter your own looks but you can't alter your genetics.

If somebody gets liposuction, laser eye surgery, braces, and hair transplantation then their kids will still most likely end up as fat, bald, nearsighted people with crooked teeth. So it is sort of deceptive to anyone who wants to have kids with you.

Just something to think about.

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If he were to offer you $10 million to slice another quarter inch off of his beezer, even though it might be feeding into his mental illness, it would be immoral of you to decline the $10 million.

I strongly disagree. I think it's wrong ever to pander to vice or irrationality, to say nothing of what one consciously recognizes to be full-blown mental illness.

A productive person takes pride in the fact that the values he creates are real and objective; they can be appreciated and enjoyed by discerning people with high standards. His purpose is never to serve others per se — but still, he can't help but feel very good about the fact that his efforts do make a positive impact on those who experience them.

A productive person is a creator, not a destroyer; a trader, not a quick-buck artist. A rational cosmetic surgeon would want to consider himself to be an improver of people's looks — a long-range friend to those who seek him out for help — not merely some guy who can skillfully cut faces apart.

Any cold-hearted M.D. with a scalpel can take advantage of Michael Jackson's neurosis, and agree to make him look worse than he already does. So it might add a few million to your bank account — what will you have earned? Certainly not self-respect. Certainly not professional status in your own eyes. Certainly not any result you'd ever care to show your clients. Certainly nothing but empty dollars and cents, paid to you by a very sad person, one who is probably coming to you out of a desperate attempt to fill his internal void — which value, incidentally, you will never be able to provide him with.

On a related note, I believe it's an error ever to take on any kind of a job primarily for financial gain. Psychologically, it's totally wrong, and tends to lead to a kind of poverty mentality which amounts to the chronic feeling that there is "never enough". Work for love, work for the excitement and the experience of what you do; don't ever, to the very extent that you can help it, work specifically for money. One of the great secrets of truly wealthy people is that they don't chase paydays the way the poor and middle classes do; they do what is meaningful to them — they pursue their passions — and they allow money to follow them around relentlessly.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'd say it is absolutely fair play.

You own your genes, you own your body, you can do anything you want to it, including suicide, gay sex, having your face uncovered, your hair long, and your lipids and calcium formations in any amount and cartesian coordinates you like.

When I am not an objectivist, I am a transhumanist btw and I look forward to an age where the body is the least bio-3d printed at the spot at a WILL's desire. Not only changing your hair or skin colour but asking yourself "will I go out as a woman or man today?"

Edited by Senator
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By which, I assume you mean that it's an ugly trait for someone not to be able to find value in any other human being?].
Yes. I'm talking about the type that hates living so much that they are indifferent to everything, including any good trait a person may have.

But, more on topic... I think you're saying that we all know that people poop, so they aren't trying to gain anything from us by deceit when they do not poop at our dinner table [Your analogy is eyebrow-raising; have you been hanging around 8 year old boys :) ?]

mmm... I think my point was unclear to you. I'll say it again, from the start:

  1. a question is presented "Plastic surgery - Faking reality?"
  2. My answer is "no, it isn't. I think that thinking that it is faking is a mistake, and now I'll explain how this mistake comes to be."
  3. The explanation is: "You (person who makes the mistake) look only at the action and judge the similarity of this action to other actions, which may have different motives, and end up thinking action A has the motive of action B, just because actions A and B are similar in some way"
  4. As an example of such mix-up between A and B, I give an example of A being faking your personality, and B- pooping in public. Both actions involve some sort of hiding, even though the motive for the actions is completely different.

OK, I hope it's clear now.

However, you say that when someone hides their personality, and put on an act, then they are guilty of hiding the truth and -- let's assume -- trying to deceive someone into granting them some value, on the basis of that deception.

Actually what makes someone immoral by faking their personality is the negation of the virtue of selfishness. The primary damage is done to themselves, not to other people. But it's not really the topic.

So far, so good. However, could you explain why plastic surgery is not in the "gain value via deceit" category?

...

something temporary (e.g. lip-stick or shoulder-pads) aren't immoral either. So, what's the root of the difference, then?

First I think you should explain why plastic surgery IS a deceit (otherwise you're asking me to prove a negative).

I think the only possible deceit involved would be if the woman attempts to lie to the man she's about to have children with that her looks is an expression of her genes. If she has reason to believe that he might decide not to be with her/have children with her because of her real appearance, then she should tell him the truth.

In any case, the default is not an obligation to make sure every stranger in the street knows everything about you. Many things are not visible - it does not mean one has an obligation to reveal them. It is up to other people to decide whether or not they wish to pursue further information about a stranger they find appealing.

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First I think you should explain why plastic surgery IS a deceit ... the default is not an obligation to make sure every stranger in the street knows everything about you.
I agree, and I think this goes to the heart of the issue.

The obligation to tell the other parent when one is going to have kids is a funny little twist; I guess he should know that it's going to cost him surgeon's fees to have his daughter looking like her mom.

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You can alter your own looks but you can't alter your genetics.

If somebody gets liposuction, laser eye surgery, braces, and hair transplantation then their kids will still most likely end up as fat, bald, nearsighted people with crooked teeth. So it is sort of deceptive to anyone who wants to have kids with you.

Just something to think about.

Yeah but... the kids can get plastic surgery too.

Besides after the surgeries you can theoretically attract healthier mates and thereby improving your offspring's gene pool. From that point on your children can just rinse and repeat.

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It's funny, because the only woman I know that's had plastic surgery (that I know of) got a breast *reduction*. She said it was *great*, it *totally* fixed her chronic back pain and it was *so* nice not to have them puppies in the way all the time. By the time you find out whether someone has had plastic surgery, I would hope that you'd *already* know enough about them to know whether they are shallow. I can't imagine getting a breast enlargement and not regretting it later. Having huge boobs is a pain. Then again, most of the women I know are professional types that are actually good for something.

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It's funny, because the only woman I know that's had plastic surgery (that I know of) got a breast *reduction*. She said it was *great*, it *totally* fixed her chronic back pain and it was *so* nice not to have them puppies in the way all the time. By the time you find out whether someone has had plastic surgery, I would hope that you'd *already* know enough about them to know whether they are shallow. I can't imagine getting a breast enlargement and not regretting it later. Having huge boobs is a pain. Then again, most of the women I know are professional types that are actually good for something.

I can sympathize with this. I'll probably be getting a reduction someday, for health reasons more than anything. I'm not even sure I'd put a reduction in the category of "plastic surgery" necessarily, because it's not about appearance so much as allowing yourself to actually stand up straight. If I wasn't a muscly athlete-type I think I'd be bent in half by the damn things. This raises an interesting question too...what determines whether something is plastic surgery? Is the same surgery in a different category based on the reason for it? That seems a bit strange to me. My mom had a "nose job" under the premise of removing inflamed ducts and fixing a deviated septum. But the doc still made her nose smaller for cosmetic reasons.

I guess that's a question that would be more relevant to an insurance adjuster than a philosopher.

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The obligation to tell the other parent when one is going to have kids is a funny little twist; I guess he should know that it's going to cost him surgeon's fees to have his daughter looking like her mom.

I wonder how in the future (which maybe sooner than later) we are going to deal with the issue of cognitive enhancement drug use, especially if they get to be very effective (and they will). An additional section in dating profiles: with drug use/without drug use :D ?

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Okay, so I have another related question.

I'm a short guy. I'm 17 years old and am around 5'5".

Since everyone in my grade got their growth spurt last summer, I've been feeling pretty insecure and intimidated. I come from a short family, so it's out of my control. Since it's out of my control, I get fustrated.

I don't think it's rational to be insecure because of my height, or anything else outside of my control, so I'm working on that.

However, I do have a pair of shoe lifts which can immediately and comfortably increase my height by 1 inch. That combined with the initial shoe height, brings me to about 5'8", which I am more than happy with. If I do wear them, I'll start my first day back to school, since it is reasonable that I could have had a growth spurt over Christmas break.

Should I use them, even though I have not yet addressed my insecurities?

Edited by Julian
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Should I use them, even though I have not yet addressed my insecurities?

The answer depends on why would you want to wear them. If you are trying to gain a value (whatever that maybe) by deceit (others or yourself) the answer is no. If you have a rational reason for doing it - the answer is yes.

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I'm a short guy. I'm 17 years old and am around 5'5".

Short guys are cute. My ex is only 5'6", and I'm 5'10".

I'd see wearing shoe lifts as similar to wearing makeup or a push-up bra. The point isn't that they necessarily make you look that much better, it's that they give you a psychological edge of thinking you look better.

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The answer depends on why would you want to wear them. If you are trying to gain a value (whatever that maybe) by deceit (others or yourself) the answer is no. If you have a rational reason for doing it - the answer is yes.

I want them because they make me feel more masculine and attractive. Females want to be dominated in a relationship, and taller men look more dominant.

I'm a handsome guy, but the height thing always bothers me. I wore them out today for a test drive, and I was feeling really good. In other words, it had a positive effect. Positive results don't come from flawed premises though, unless my emotions were misleading me.

I've been wishing that I would grow more, but my wishes were irrational, since there are no genies to grant wishes. I decided to take it into my own hands.

There's no way for me to obtain the value of height. I can't command my body to grow more. It's biological. So my thinking is that I'm not achieving something deceitfully, since it is something no one can achieve through effort.

I'm still the same guy, so I'm not being deceitful about who I am. If someone asked if I was wearing shoe lifts, I would deny it though to avoid embarassment.

Edited by Julian
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If you want to hide it - it does not sound like a good idea to me. By your own admission, this decision could introduce dishonesty and potential embarassement into your life.

Being truly comfortable in your own skin, just the way you are is very, very attractive. That kind of absolute self-acceptance about one's physicality, if real, generates more attraction than whatever can be gained from appearing few inches taller. Confidence (mental and physical) is a much more crusial to masculinity (and thus romantic relationships) than physical features.

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Long-term, I think you should ditch the shoes, Julian. Sophia is right that being totally comfortable with one's self exudes great attractiveness for the opposite sex. But the more important reasons only have to do with you.

If it were possible to achieve the same, or even more, confidence without your shoes, would you do it? Would it be nicer to just like who you are, being truly fine with yourself, without worrying about wearing shoes? Of course! So your real dilemma is figuring out if that would be possible, and if so, how to do it. Not to mention that if you can figure this out, it is possible that the approaches you would learn would carry over into other parts of your life. So, for example, if you have a lack of confidence in meeting women, you could then use your newly-acquired confidence in your height and body in your social and romantic interactions as well. So there are other benefits.

If you choose the use the shoes in the meantime, personally I don't think it's a big deal. Since you are already thinking about and working on your issue with your height, once that is resolved, it follows that you will lose interest naturally in wearing the shoes.

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I want them because they make me feel more masculine and attractive. Females want to be dominated in a relationship, and taller men look more dominant.

Just a heads-up, I think this is a gross generalization and not true for even a simple majority of women. Though it may occasionally be fun to dominate or be dominated in the bedroom :thumbsup: , that is a far cry from being dominated in a relationship. There may be some such women, but frankly, if you are an intelligent and passionate individual they are not worth your time. A mature relationship involves give-and-take from both sides, and if a woman already knows what she wants from a relationship, she may not appreciate you "dominating" the direction.

Totally not trying to bite your head off here. A little helpful advice from a woman is all. And as far as being short, yes, tall guys are hot. Short guys can also be hot. I know a fellow who is probably only around 5'8". He is completely cut and a fantastic athlete, especially in grappling-related martial arts. Hot? You bet.

Kat

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I like this quote from Nathaniel Branden which I think is fitting:

"As you grow in self-esteem, your face, manner and way of talking and moving will naturally project the pleasure you take in being alive."

I think that is at the heart of attraction.

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I want them because they make me feel more masculine and attractive. Females want to be dominated in a relationship, and taller men look more dominant.

I'm a handsome guy, but the height thing always bothers me. I wore them out today for a test drive, and I was feeling really good. In other words, it had a positive effect. Positive results don't come from flawed premises though, unless my emotions were misleading me.

I've been wishing that I would grow more, but my wishes were irrational, since there are no genies to grant wishes. I decided to take it into my own hands.

There's no way for me to obtain the value of height. I can't command my body to grow more. It's biological. So my thinking is that I'm not achieving something deceitfully, since it is something no one can achieve through effort.

I'm still the same guy, so I'm not being deceitful about who I am. If someone asked if I was wearing shoe lifts, I would deny it though to avoid embarassment.

One of my best friends is 5'4", overweight, has bad skin, and desperately needs a haircut. I'm 6 feet tall and I take good care of my body. My friend gets twenty times the female attention that I do, though, because he's self-confident and fun to be around whereas I am self-loathing and morosely boring. Women are attracted more to confidence and personality than the media would have you believe. If the shoes make you more confident then by all means wear them, but some women will be able to pick up on the synthetic, item-related confidence you exude.

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