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First off I'd just like to say that I chose to post this here as having looked around a few forums (mostly objectivist forums) this seemed like the best place to put this due to the generally well reasoned and well thought out nature of most posts here.

First off some of this will be like a train of thoughts as I just write down what comes into my head. Because of this and other issues (which will be listed later) this may not be all that coherent and for that I apologize in advance.

Firstly a little perspective. I am a 17 year old male living in the UK currently studying at college. My current problem has been going on since it was triggered by some stressful and traumatic events in the summer (where I made some mistakes I’d made before) and whilst I was very tired after being ill and having an activity holiday in a very hot climate. Currently I don’t feel myself, like I’m not fully conscious. I feel disassociated and surreal, like I am living a dream. I’m not concrete, not myself. It’s like a dream in some ways. When I wake up in the morning I don’t get those few second where you slot back into yourself after the night break in consciousness. I don’t feel the full force of emotions and my logical thinking powers have decreased dramatically. Time feels wired, an hour can fly by, and a few weeks ago can seem like ages ago. My memory is very bad, I can forget to do things and forget what has happened. Old memories (before my current state) seem so far away, surreal and in some ways detached from myself now. I don’t feel the proper emotional connection with them now.

First up I went to see a therapist for a one off session, I didn't mention many of the issues I am having but I never went back to them as I felt that they would be of no use (call it a personality clash). After a few weeks and still feeling the same I saw a hypnotherapist. This really worked well the first time and wasn't full of all the mystical nonsense people often think of when they think of hypnotherapy. However the effect only lasted until the evening of that day and I went back to being the same as before. There could be many reasons for this, one of them being going back to a place where I had previously had a lot of stress and trauma or that I didn't go out and do anything with the huge amount of energy I had about an hour after the hypnotherapy. However it hasn't been of help since, as I usually haven’t been able to be hypnotized properly due to interruption and rather disturbingly, a sudden panic/ fear that my heartbeat is stopping so I pull myself out of the trance to stop it form stopping 9totaly irrational I know). Also it has often been upsetting, so I have stopped it for now.

After the problem I encountered, I went to the doctors to get some advice in dealing with the problem. They gave me the number for my current therapist, whom I have seen twice so far and seems reasonable. However there are a few problems. First she says she will not be judgmental, which is first of all impossible and secondly unhelpful as I can't then identify the good from the bad. If I was perfect I wouldn't be seeing her, so I need to be able to judge the bad and the good. Secondly she doesn’t think man is that rational, saying a quote "I know man is a rational being but I just haven’t seen any evidence for it yet". She also says things like the future are a mystery and that I should only live in the present. Whilst there is some truth to it it’s blatantly false, if I had no way to change the future I wouldn’t even be seeing her. However there are many good things about her, she is quite enthusiastic and positive, recognizes pride as the ultimate value and works in a goal oriented manner (for example she gives out homework based upon my ides). Also if I went after some of her paths I think they might work, in the short term. I want to recover fully though, not just partly. I need to find the right kind of help. I’ve already spent £450 on all of this and I need to be getting better ASAP. I know an objectivist phycotherapist would be best, but I’ve only found two, and they are both nowhere near me (I live in the UK) and so can’t be reached (my bank card isn’t accepted on US websites so a phone session would need my mums money).

I my head now feel so odd. I get these weird thoughts flash into my head all the time. I don’t enjoy things I used to properly. I can’t complete sentences in my head they way I want to or with any drive. If I start out to say I love that I may end up saying I hate that, even though don’t. Every time this happens its like being stabbed a little. I get thoughts that make no sense, and love and creating often gets mixed in with hate and destruction. It’s like here is some anti-me in my head. I don’t laugh at comedy I used to, I don’t enjoy food the same as I used to etc. I’ve put off doing things I like so that I can enjoy them when better. I’ve put of buying things as what I like now may change when I’m better. I’ve put off college work until I can think properly as my thinking abilities have been seriously impaired by this (I find it very hard to be logical).

I am always worrying if it is too late to get myself back, or if it will become too late. I wonder if I will ever feel my full safe again. I have panics where I think it is already too late and that I’m beyond help, like just now if I look at stuff that is mine I don’t feel the full emotional connection I did a few hours ago (I could just be creating these scares though, for example I only did that after looking at my phone, and now I feel more connected to other stuff of mine). All this worrying makes it all very hard, and everything is such an effort. I don’t know how much more of this I can take; I wonder if I will go past some point of no return. I often worry if I already have.

I still like the things I used to in some regards; maybe it’s just that it remind me of better time though. I watch TV I used to love and still do in many respects, on seeing the iphone out (just come out here in the UK) I tried it out for ages and researched it for ages. But even now I worry that I wouldn’t have the same enthusiasm right now, that maybe something has changed in just these few hours. This is what it is like in my head, constant worry. But I also worry that if I stop thinking about stuff then I’ll just end up this apathetic nothing, and I can’t stop thinking about these things. Because what I’m living for is to be better really, yes I can enjoy part of life now, but if this carried on forever then I’m not sure it would be worth it. I worry about never being my full, same self again. I worry when I look in the mirror, I don’t have the same piecing stare that used to, my eyes don’t look as intense as they did, and I wonder if I will ever get that back. I am scared that this will all be written on my face in bags under my eyes.

I waste time just sitting about and wake up with little energy, and then have huge burst of energy just before I go to bed and then t is too late to do all that much. College work is building up and I’m going to have to start buying stuff again as my cloths are getting worn and winter is really settling in. Christmas is coming and I want to be able to enjoy it. The lights at the mall made me smile but I also wish Christmas were postponed until I was better. I wish everything of importance could be postponed until I was better, but it just can’t be. I don’t want things tainted; I don’t want my college coursework to be some half job of what it could be.

I worry if I will ever be able to enjoy what I used to, weather stuff I have done in my current state will be too painful to do or that it will be tainted forever. I’m overeating as it allows me to feel more and it takes over my senses so I'm not just left there worrying. I used to love to think but now it just causes stress too much of the time. I’ve always had a hyperactive mind and liked that, so I don’t want to loose that just because it’s painful now. I can’t really imagine the future and being better that well. I can imagine being better in some small form, but nor what I will be like a year from now. This all worries me. Will I ever regain myself? I know you can never stay the same, but I want to regain my old core self, my old sense of life that is so subdued now. I think its still there somewhere; I just need to get it out again.

I worry about not being able to judge again, to be proud again, to have those moments of being wholly proud and a whole sense of self, as always being like this, as there is now this big break in my life. I worry that as thee are the ears that create who you are, weather this will become who I am, some less enthusiastic, restrained and unhappy person. I’m worried that even if I am fixed, people will never accept that I am. I worried in the summer that if I dint stop all that was stressing me that I would have problems. I didn’t think I could last another year of it intact. I was right, I’m not okay, and I just hope it isn’t permanent. The therapists have all said that this whole thing is to block out stress. But its like I've become my problems, in hypnotherapy one time I found it so hard to separate myself from my problems. Maybe that is a mental block of mine, if I do sort out my problems then what will I be left with? What I need to do is break this vicious circle. All the time things get worse, from one thing to another, further and further away from myself and life as it should be. I need to turn around completely. I need a complete shift in consciousness.

I always feel much better when around others, they give me energy and a sense of hope, plus a distraction form my current problems and thoughts spinning about in my head.

After y first hypnotherapy, the one that worked, I still wasn’t completely with it all (made mistakes in the real world, was a bit dozy) but I felt concrete in myself and my nature, but I felt no regrets, that I didn’t want to be anywhere else but where I was. I know the joy of getting myself back won’t always be so strong. But myself needs to last after the first joy of regaining myself. I need that to last, and worry if I will be able to go back to that fully. If I am fixed, I may worry about the same thing happening again, which could turn into some self fulfilling prophecy. To get back to normal I know won’t be s snap change, I will have to go into some sort of unconscious state and be brought out properly. I don’t think I can just go from his to being normal again.

There’s more I could put but I will have to stop. I needed to put this much o that you could have the information you may need. I know that was a lot, and if you read it all thanks very much.

Any advice or information, especially from those who have dealt with this situation or have known someone go though the same thing, would be much appreciated.

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I couple recommendations off the top of my head without getting too much into the detail would be to regularize your diet, exercise, and eating habits if you haven't.(In a healthy way, of course) What you describe sounds like something more physiological the psychological to me.

If you continue seeing a therapist and you're an objectivist minded person, I recommend asking what grand theory they prefer. Stick with a Cognitive or Epigenetic psych, if you can find one. Run from Freudians and behaviorists.

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I agree. Your mind is the functioning of your brain, which is part of your body. You seem to be assuming that your problems are due to your own faulty mental habits, when they may be physiological. If you have an infection or a tumor or a chemical imbalance, a therapist is not going to be able to help. I would suggest going to an M.D. first, going over the history of your recent illness, and getting some tests to rule out a physical cause before going the therapy route.

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If you continue seeing a therapist and you're an objectivist minded person, I recommend asking what grand theory they prefer. Stick with a Cognitive or Epigenetic psych, if you can find one. Run from Freudians and behaviorists.

What is epigenetic psych? I have never heard or read about it. As far as I know only mention of being something epigenetic is in Erickson's theory of development. Google and Wikipedia gave me no answer too.

2Laure: Psychotherapy improve chemical imbalance too. There have been studies confirming changes in level of neurotransmiters thanks to psychotherapy. Same kind of changes that occur due to pills.

Furthermore I do have problem with a notion that mental illness stems from chemical imbalance. As I see it, it is vestige of mind/body dichotomy. I would rather say that mental illness is the chemical imbalance. It does not assume some barrier between mind and body because this notion tells that every mind state has to have some reflection in physiological state. Furthermore it explains data I mentioned above (i.e. chemical imbalance improves during the psychotherapy).

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I my head now feel so odd. I get these weird thoughts flash into my head all the time. I don’t enjoy things I used to properly. I can’t complete sentences in my head they way I want to or with any drive. If I start out to say I love that I may end up saying I hate that, even though don’t. Every time this happens its like being stabbed a little. I get thoughts that make no sense, and love and creating often gets mixed in with hate and destruction. It’s like here is some anti-me in my head. I don’t laugh at comedy I used to, I don’t enjoy food the same as I used to etc. I’ve put off doing things I like so that I can enjoy them when better. I’ve put of buying things as what I like now may change when I’m better. I’ve put off college work until I can think properly as my thinking abilities have been seriously impaired by this (I find it very hard to be logical)....

...This is what it is like in my head, constant worry. But I also worry that if I stop thinking about stuff then I’ll just end up this apathetic nothing, and I can’t stop thinking about these things. Because what I’m living for is to be better really, yes I can enjoy part of life now, but if this carried on forever then I’m not sure it would be worth it. I worry about never being my full, same self again. I worry when I look in the mirror, I don’t have the same piecing stare that used to, my eyes don’t look as intense as they did, and I wonder if I will ever get that back. I am scared that this will all be written on my face in bags under my eyes.

....

But its like I've become my problems, in hypnotherapy one time I found it so hard to separate myself from my problems. Maybe that is a mental block of mine, if I do sort out my problems then what will I be left with? What I need to do is break this vicious circle. All the time things get worse, from one thing to another, further and further away from myself and life as it should be. I need to turn around completely. I need a complete shift in consciousness....

...I always feel much better when around others, they give me energy and a sense of hope, plus a distraction form my current problems and thoughts spinning about in my head.

A nutritional and/or hormonal evaluation might prove useful, as it does seem like one avenue you haven't considered yet. From what I comprehend of your situation, however, and from what I can relate from my own life's experiences, I think finding that sense of reality you seek may require a little more than just better physical health.

I suffered from many of these same concerns for years, and it was only identifying the myriad of causes that helped me address them and cure myself. Physiologically, at your age, you may be having some hormonal imbalances that are quite common for someone your age, especially of your gender. In college I developed the horrible physiological condition of feeling like I was having a heart attack EVERY night: my heart was bounding, my left arm was numb, I couldn't seem to stop shivering. It was very uncomfortable, and very scary. It also made it hard to get through each day, knowing what the evening would bring at the end of it. It got to the point where I could not tolerate the pain, panic and sleep deprivation any longer. I spoke to my doctor initially, and was given a prescription for an anti-anxiety medication. I thought it strange she did not refer me to a therapist of any sort first, but I guess I was desparate and went on the medication anyway. I can't say that it "cured" my anxiety, for my anxiety stemmed from my struggles to integrate contradictions between what I was told was right in the world and what I believed was right, but it did, at least allow me to fall asleep at night. Adding rest back into my life is part of what enabled me to gain philosophical perspective. Meds didn't cure me, but they helped my body settle down to such a point that my mind could begin to focus on something other than the conditions that were most likely psychosomatically imposed in the first place. It might be useful then, to make some inquires to both your medical doctor (again) about anxiety (which is, by the way, different from depression) as well as to member of your family. Is there a history of any such condition in your family? It hasn't been proven that these conditions are genetically hereditary, but even if it wasn't, if someone you knew did suffer from any sort of disorder, they could have tainted your environment in such a way to predispose you to it as well.

I only took the anti-anxiety meds for two years. If you decide to take them longer than two years, it becomes pretty much a lifetime commitment (something about your body becomign too habituated to it and slowing production of its own natural hormones to address these issues on its own). I took myself off of them without any trouble, which to me, indicated that my anxiety was largely philospohical in nature, and Objectivism is largely what helped me to start curing that. Keep in mind, though, this process took me several years. I'm not saying that to scare you; I just want to give you a good grasp of what your likely to realize yourself sometime soon.

My advice, then, is multi-faceted. Start with some inquiries about anxiety and depression amongst those you feel close to and trust. Look into the pros and cons of the medications that are out there. Take a few BIG steps back from psychotherapy and look into cognitive psychology a bit more seriously. And, as other have suggested, take a good look at your health habits. Your diet --especially at the pivotal stage of physical development that you are at for a young male-- may be causing some of your issues, but I seriously doubt it is causing all of them. Exercise is great, too. I find great peace in physical exercise. It is a wonderful way to make your mind focus on your body, and to eliminate distractions. It also helps regulate your sleep cycles, which can help give you more mental focus even when you're not exercising. I would also suggest having your thyroid evaluated. Thyroid disorders are quite common these days, and a malfunctioning thyroid can create a lot of these problems you're struggling with. I know for me, my hypoactive thyroid was causing me GREAT, seemingly insurmountable fatigue; and fatigue can put anyone in a weird, surreal mood.

But even more important than that, I would just pause and take a look --a good, conscious, non-hypnotized look-- at your values in life. All your concerns seem to largely stem from a lack of happiness in your life: not getting pleasure from things you used to, getting love and hate mixed up, etc. I don't know how much you've read of what Ayn Rand and other Objectivists have written, but even if you have done a lot of reading, I would recommend going back and re-reading (or read for the first time) anything and everything you can find about values, the good, purpose and happiness. Maybe part of the reason you're finding the world and your reaction to it so difficult to comprehend is bacuse you lack a good conscious grasp of what you are really looking to achieve (again, here's where it is important to pursue methods other than hypnosis. Try listing your values, just to get them down on paper, and that alone might be a beginning. Put those you can come up with in hierarchical order and see if that helps give you any insight. Try to stop thinking about the present or the past, for just a moment, and ponder the possibility of the long-range future. Optimistically ponder it, I mean, even if it feels ridiculous and surreal. It can't hurt, especially if you already feel that way all the time. Might as well try feeling "surreal" for a happier purpose. I am a great skeptic of hypnosis, both philosophically and psychologically. I don't think it works; any temporary effect I believe to be more of a placebo than anything else. But as far as objectivism goes, you're not going to find happiness until you consciously and explicitly identify what it is you could pursue (ie, what values) that would bring that happiness to you. Hypnotherapists would have you believe they are helping you do this, by "bringing the subconscious to the conscious level," but I think that process has to begin on the conscious level, and not the other way around as is done in hypnosis.

Also, explore Objectivists' writings (and this forum!) for the topic of self-esteem. That was the ticket for me to ultimately achieve my "cure;" I had to finally admit the level of self-doubt that had been haunting me for my entire life. The same self-doubt which I evaded the presence and influence of... it is a horrible beast. If you take my advice and try writing down your values and find that difficult it may be that your problems stem from a lack of good self-esteem. Just something else to consider.

I hope this is useful information for you. Having been "in those pits of despair" myself, I know how daunting a solution can seem.

I know that when you feel "out of focus" it's difficult to believe there is anything out there that can bring that focus back. I think it is dangerous to hope for a "simple" cure. The cure is in you, no doubt, but it may take identifying more than just adjusting your diet or identifying your stressors in life to find it.

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What is epigenetic psych? I have never heard or read about it. As far as I know only mention of being something epigenetic is in Erickson's theory of development. Google and Wikipedia gave me no answer too.

Epigenetic psychology is a branch of Developmental psychology that is largely based on Erikson's epigenetic system's principle. It places great emphasis on examing the interaction of genes with the environment. I would suggest searching for information under "epigenetic systems theory" in a search engine as opposed to looking under "epigenetic psychology." This, again, is probably because it is a theory in the larger field of developmental psychology, and is not always considered a separate branch.

Edited by 4reason
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Epigenetic psychology is a branch of Developmental psychology that is largely based on Erikson's epigenetic system's principle. It places great emphasis on examing the interaction of genes with the environment. I would suggest searching for information under "epigenetic systems theory" in a search engine as opposed to looking under "epigenetic psychology." This, again, is probably because it is a theory in the larger field of developmental psychology, and is not always considered a separate branch.

What she said and then some. I prefer it as it takes into account genetic causation without eliminating freewill. The idea is that vary small genetic differences can "butterfly effect" into very big differences later due to hormones, reinforcement from others and self, and conscious decisions. It is what I view to be a proper conceptual mix of biology and psychology. While it is a part of developmental psychology, it is fundamental in most respects to all branches. Without considering the human animal from start to finish....looking at his life as a whole, purpose and therefore therapies and approaches often strike me as short term and not likely to succeed.

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2Laure: Psychotherapy improve chemical imbalance too. There have been studies confirming changes in level of neurotransmiters thanks to psychotherapy. Same kind of changes that occur due to pills.

Furthermore I do have problem with a notion that mental illness stems from chemical imbalance. As I see it, it is vestige of mind/body dichotomy. I would rather say that mental illness is the chemical imbalance. It does not assume some barrier between mind and body because this notion tells that every mind state has to have some reflection in physiological state. Furthermore it explains data I mentioned above (i.e. chemical imbalance improves during the psychotherapy).

I agree with you partly. It do agree that having the issue is likely to cause the imbalance, and that pycho-epistemology is the go between that will ultimately help sort that out. That said, behaviour and actions seems to lead people unwittingly into these cycles of depression. Imagine eating only lays potato chips and coke while sitting on your couch for a month. In addition to any self-abasement you would likely feel, your body and mind are lacking in all kinds of vitamins an minerals that your body and brain need for proper functioning. This is to say nothing of the nearly total lack of endorphines you would have from no movement.

This is a good example of the epi-genetic tack...a back and forth interplay between environment, body, and self, where each affects the other and is then affected in turn. Seems like it meshes well with the idea of emotional changes moving in an upward or downward spiraling pattern.

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What she said and then some. I prefer it as it takes into account genetic causation without eliminating freewill. The idea is that vary small genetic differences can "butterfly effect" into very big differences later due to hormones, reinforcement from others and self, and conscious decisions. It is what I view to be a proper conceptual mix of biology and psychology. While it is a part of developmental psychology, it is fundamental in most respects to all branches. Without considering the human animal from start to finish....looking at his life as a whole, purpose and therefore therapies and approaches often strike me as short term and not likely to succeed.

Do you know names of some proponements of this theory or some books written about it? It seems to me a bit like developmnetal psychobiology and it seems to have something it common with William Stern, is there any connection?

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Although this book has been written for a professional audience I think you may still greatly benefit from reading it. It will allow you to identify the errors in your thinking. The book is called Cognitive Therapy of Depression by Aaron T. Beck (another one is Cognitive Therapy and the Emotional Disorders by the same author.)

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Okay, since I first posted this I've been able to express my main problem a bit better. Bacicaly it's like I'm not full of myslef, and thats where all these conflicting thoughts come from, from some kind of anti me space left because I'm not full of myself and concrete there is some space for this rubish as I find it hard be 100% with things and go though them in my mind.

Thanks to everyone who replyed, I will definatly make sure to check out everything, especialy the self esteem issues, the books from Sophia, have a look at cognative therpay, have a look at my deit excersise and sleeping patterns and go to the doctors to get my physical well being checked up on.

Edited by Speedy
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  • 3 weeks later...

Just another few questions. Is there much difference between cognative behavioral therapy and congnative therapy, and if so which is better and why?

Secondly this fight is reallly tiring me (although proberbly more than usual now as I'm extremly sleep deprived right now). Any tips for keeping up stregth whilst I feel weak and need to constantly remind myself that I do have strength left to fight this problem and sort myself and my life out.

Thirdly I feel I may be suffering from depersonalisation though to much introspection (thatnlks to old feelings of guilt and self doubt). If this is the case then how can I cure myself as that cure requires introspection?

Also, how do I gain patience? Alll I want right now is to get myself sorted. My work is simply a chore to be done and my interests just there to pass the time as I wait to see the doctor again. For example I've now edited this post about 5 times in an hour, obsesing over geting myself fixed instead of just doing something else. I know maybee anxiety meds might help this as my panics subsiding would alllow me to enjoy things again in the knolegde that things will be better, but in the meantime is there anything I can do to help gain patience?

Edited by Speedy
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Just another few questions. Is there much difference between cognative behavioral therapy and congnative therapy, and if so which is better and why?

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) was called cognitive therapy before. The word "behavioral" was added because cognitive therapy used methods from behavioral therapy as well. The two therapy names sometimes refer to same therapy. If for some reason someone does not use "behavioral methods" in therapy I would prefer CBT (the reason is that it has wider range of methods), but I don´t think that such is the case in many occasions.

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Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) was called cognitive therapy before. The word "behavioral" was added because cognitive therapy used methods from behavioral therapy as well. The two therapy names sometimes refer to same therapy. If for some reason someone does not use "behavioral methods" in therapy I would prefer CBT (the reason is that it has wider range of methods), but I don´t think that such is the case in many occasions.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying that

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Thirdly I feel I may be suffering from depersonalisation though to much introspection (thatnlks to old feelings of guilt and self doubt). If this is the case then how can I cure myself as that cure requires introspection?

It is possible to "over think" things. Especially in circumstances where you feel yourself going round and round. If you sit dwelling for an hour and have gained new insights, then it is probably time for a break. Preferably something physically demanding.(dancing,running, weightlifting...I like sparring and swing dancing) Physically tiring aids in concentration especially for males so I would recommend that aspect of it. Barring that, at least do something which requires all of your concentration and hopefully uses a different part of your brain then the introspection aspect. Then return to the problem right after the activity with the new state of mind and try to rephrase the dilemma. Asking the same question over and over usuaully yields the same answer, and when the answer is "I don't know," it isn't very helpful.

Meditation is another possibility since it is possible to learn techniques that sort of clear out your RAM to allow you to focus on one thing more deliberately, but would not recommend it strongly based on what you have written so far.

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Okay, I think I've finaly figured out whats wrong with me (although I have thought this before). I think I have depersonalisation or disasociaton caused by stress, guilt, anxiety and depresssion which has in turn caused alll those creatiing factors to increace. Well at least I have found the scource of the problem now. Just a quick one, does this sound like the best course of action. Take anti anxiety pills so that I can concerntrate on therapy?

I'll be able to make my choices once I've had a good nights sleep

Edited by Speedy
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Just a quick one, does this sound like the best course of action. Take anti anxiety pills so that I can concerntrate on therapy?

I'll be able to make my choices once I've had a good nights sleep

I don't think that anyone could really determine that for you based on the amount of information you provided here. That is something you should discuss with your therapist. They would be much closer to having that full context of your situation.

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