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Alfa

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I can't believe you just told him to hit on ugly chicks for practice. ;)

I did not.

Not caring about the outcome maybe due to simply her not being his type. Once he experiences that often enough he will be able to repeat the same on other occasions.

What if they are interested?

So? Talking to someone does not create obligations.

Edited by ~Sophia~
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I did not.

Not caring about the outcome maybe due to simply her not being his type. Once he experiences that often enough he will be able to repeat the same on other occasions.

So? Talking to someone does not create obligations.

Just giving you a hard time. Sheesh. I even added smilies.

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He needs to look deeper and understand why he can't make himself talk to women. Being "bad at it" is not a static fact of nature.

Since it's a new experience, I think that being hesitant is a very normal response. During the learning phase, people make a lot of mistakes and who wants to look like an idiot in front of others? That's why you have to accept the reality of it and just correct the mistakes as they come. That's how confidence is gained with something: repitition and an intent to improve, which is the way to success.

I like Sophia's advice to start out with someone you feel the least pressure with. Then build from there.

p.s. Your picture is really dark.

Edited by progressiveman1
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Since it's a new experience, I think that being hesitant is a very normal response. During the learning phase, people make a lot of mistakes and who wants to look like an idiot in front of others? That's why you have to accept the reality of it and just correct the mistakes as they come. That's how confidence is gained with something: repitition and an intent to improve, which is the way to success.

I like Sophia's advice to start out with someone you feel the least pressure with. Then build from there.

p.s. Your picture is really dark.

If he had said, "I'm young and am having trouble meeting chicks. I'm just not sure what to say. Any advice?" ,then I would agree with you. Be happy to give him some light hearted advice. He didn't say that, though. He said,

I have a serious problem being confident with myself

it's very rare that I feel good about myself. It's terrible.

I can't meet anyone easily when I feel depressed all the time, and the only thing that will make me less depressed is to meet people.

18 years with minimal human contact. I haven't been so much as hugged since I was 6 years old.

I just feel like I'm standing in quicksand.

This desire is so overpowering that it is effectively consuming my life.

I'm constantly plagued by the gnawing, empty pain of loneliness.

It is difficult to focus on the things you love to do when you're always in pain.

I can rarely ever drive home without having to pull over halfway through the trip and wait until I stop crying. Loneliness is killing me, to put it simply.

Dark is not my interpretation, it is simply where he is at. Having a girlfriend or 3 even, isn't going to make those feelings go away. He needs to fix that first. Almost all guys are lacking in confidence when it comes to approaching women when it's their first rodeo. It takes awhile to get used to the idea that your role in life is to be rejected 8 times out of 10. I get that. But that fear of rejection and difficulty with being confident does not cause 'crying every time you drive home' or 'feeling depressed all of the time.' At best it may cause a little anxiety. All I am suggesting is that he consider the possibility that there is some other reason(s) for the way he feels and that carrying these negative emotions into a relationship will not fix them in the long run.

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I get what you're saying, but I believe you misunderstood me. I do not wish to be popular, I wish to not be alone anymore. This desire is so overpowering that it is effectively consuming my life. Everything I do seems to be focused on meeting girls, and I avoid things I used to like doing that generate no chance of meeting them. Chronic loneliness is a very painful thing no matter how highly you think of yourself. I think I'm definitely better than 75% of the people out there right now in terms of physical, mental, and musical ability. There is no reason for me to have low self-esteem, but I'm constantly plagued by the gnawing, empty pain of loneliness. Seeing other people in relationships only amplifies the pain. It is difficult to focus on the things you love to do when you're always in pain. Step on a bear trap and leave it clamped to your leg for a few days if you don't believe me. It's getting to the point now that I can rarely ever drive home without having to pull over halfway through the trip and wait until I stop crying. Loneliness is killing me, to put it simply. How am I going to fix something myself when I barely have any control over myself?

I can very much relate to that, but I have started to pull myself out of it. Unfortunatley I find it very difficult to put this clearly in words, perhaps due to a small language barrier, but i'll try...

In my first post the question is basically about how to achieve certain values that I think are missing in my life. When achieving them I will be less lonely and more happy. I believe you and I want the same thing here, however theres a big step i've had to take before arriving here, and I think you need to take that step too.

When loneliness takes up such a central part of your being there's obviously something wrong - something missing - and it's not your failures with social interactions. What you need is a solid foundation for your self-esteem. I cannot claim to be an expert on how to create this foundation, but I believe I can atleast point in the right direction. Personally, I have just "simply" re-evaluated myself:

First of all; find out what and who you are - what is your purpose in life? That's a pretty tough question, but your answer will act as a compass in life so it's vastly important.

When you have a clear picture of who you are you can start focusing on things in your character that you like. What do you like that's good about yourself? Do not focus on achievements. The things in your character that are good must be good despite your successes or failures.

Self confidence is more tied to what you have acomplished in life, and what you believe you can acomplish. This can be based on, but is not the same thing as, more fundamental traits.

If you sort these things out properly you should start to rise from your depressed mood. Once you start to feel more positive you can perhaps try and take small steps with your social relations. Soon, hopefully, you will start to ride on a positive wave and that's when the doors to change really open.

Of course this might be much harder than it sounds, and if I knew exactly how to go about these things I would not have started this thread, but if you truly start working with yourself - from the core - I promise you will soon be on the right track. :D

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Try starting a conversation with a girl who you don't consider cute. Less pressure when you don't care about the outcome.

Or you can always find the most goddamn beatiful girl you have ever seen, prefferably a classmate or co-worker, and just... um, try and ask her out on a date.

Yes, i'm obviously more brave than clever. But, even though I was graciously turned down, it was damn well worth it. :D

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Of course this might be much harder than it sounds, and if I knew exactly how to go about these things I would not have started this thread, but if you truly start working with yourself - from the core - I promise you will soon be on the right track. :D

I think that this is very much the correct approach.

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My advice echoes what others have said: self-esteem is a definite must; what's the point in being a good communicator if you can communicate anything worthwhile? But I'd like to add that there is an art to socialising which you can learn through a good self-help book. If you haven't already tried it then try investing in a decent book and teaching yourself the basics of talking to people. Perhaps then you can express yourself more clearly and other rational people will see your moral worth and you theirs.

There is one simple technique which helped me to break down the barriers between myself and other people which was to simply say 'hi' to a person. It seems pretty dumb doesn't it? I started with the goal of saying this to one colleague a day then worked my way to about 10 then 20 and so on. After doing this for a while (as well as learning more advanced techniques) conversation came naturally but it started with that one simple exercise.

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My advice echoes what others have said: self-esteem is a definite must; what's the point in being a good communicator if you can communicate anything worthwhile? But I'd like to add that there is an art to socialising which you can learn through a good self-help book. If you haven't already tried it then try investing in a decent book and teaching yourself the basics of talking to people. Perhaps then you can express yourself more clearly and other rational people will see your moral worth and you theirs.

There is one simple technique which helped me to break down the barriers between myself and other people which was to simply say 'hi' to a person. It seems pretty dumb doesn't it? I started with the goal of saying this to one colleague a day then worked my way to about 10 then 20 and so on. After doing this for a while (as well as learning more advanced techniques) conversation came naturally but it started with that one simple exercise.

Any tips on good books to read?

Now that you mentioned it, I just set a new goal for myself. Every morning I take the train for about 30-40 minutes to get to work. Of course I always try to sit down next to the hottest girls I can find. So from now i'll try to greet them with a smile and a "good morning". I think it's a good start.

Next step is to find something interesting in the morning paper to ask someone about. Like this morning I read a very interesting column and I considered initiating a conversation with the girl next to me. Something like; "you know, I just thought of something I need to ask you... do you think anything is possible[thats sort of what the column was about]?". Could be a good opener and the answer could say alot about the other person. I think i'll save that one for later...

Edited by Alfa
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Any tips on good books to read?

Now that you mentioned it, I just set a new goal for myself. Every morning I take the train for about 30-40 minutes to get to work. Of course I always try to sit down next to the hottest girls I can find. So from now i'll try to greet them with a smile and a "good morning". I think it's a good start.

Next step is to find something interesting in the morning paper to ask someone about. Like this morning I read a very interesting column and I considered initiating a conversation with the girl next to me. Something like; "you know, I just thought of something I need to ask you... do you think anything is possible[thats sort of what the column was about]?". Could be a good opener and the answer could say alot about the other person. I think i'll save that one for later...

I can recommend How to Talk to Women by Ron Louis and David Copeland.

According to the book the best way to talk to women is through asking questions. For example, one of the authors describes a situation where he was on a long plane journey and he struck up a conversation with the guy in the seat next to him. The author managed to get through the entire plane journey by only asking the other passenger questions about himself. At the end of the flight the guy shook his hand and told him he was the most interesting person he'd ever met! :D

This is good news from an Oist point of view as you can get enough information about a potential friend/romantic partner without investing to much time and effort on people you are incompatible with.

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I can recommend How to Talk to Women by Ron Louis and David Copeland.

According to the book the best way to talk to women is through asking questions.

I'll second that. Ironically, what I have found with a lot of beautiful women, is that I run out of things to ask because they are very often not that interesting. Exceptions exist, of course.

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I think the key is self-confidence. If you are confident about yourself, you should naturally feel comfortable in sharing your ideas and emotions with others.

Well, you need something to be confident about ... confidence isn't causeless.

To the OP:

I thought I was "introverted" until I finally entered my chosen career. My accomplishments were banal at best until then, and there was really nothing in my high school and college years I could look at as a true success.

When I finally got into my business (electronic music instrument sales & marketing), I was able to apply skills in practical ways and see the results. A letter grade on a term paper meant nothing to me ... the difference between a $200,000 sales month and a $500,000 sales month is palpable ... real, tangible, meaningful, and best of all financially rewarding!

When I'm at work, especially when I'm at trade shows, I'm totally "extroverted" - I have a great deal of confidence, I talk to people I'd normally ignore, and am able to work a crowd. My public speaking anxiety went away, and even though I'm only a hobbyist musician, I no longer fear playing piano in front of people. An unexpected benefit was the ability to remain myself when I meet famous musicians, some of whom I've idolized since my youth, and not gush over them like they were somehow more than human.

I'm at the point now that if I somehow lost my job and could not re-enter my industry, such would not tear my confidence down easily - I know, because I have demonstrated in physical reality, that I am a person of value.

Having a passion and a skill to match is a tremendous confidence-booster. Do what you love, do it well, be proud, and don't be humble about it (i.e. making yourself appear less efficacious than you are, either for unearned praise or to be accepted by inferiors). You won't need to change to being "extroverted" then - people who recognize your value will come to you, and you don't ever have to be something you're not, act in an uncomfortable manner, or sacrifice what you like in others for the mere company of uninteresting people.

Edited by Lemuel
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I can recommend How to Talk to Women by Ron Louis and David Copeland.

According to the book the best way to talk to women is through asking questions. For example, one of the authors describes a situation where he was on a long plane journey and he struck up a conversation with the guy in the seat next to him. The author managed to get through the entire plane journey by only asking the other passenger questions about himself. At the end of the flight the guy shook his hand and told him he was the most interesting person he'd ever met! :P

This is good news from an Oist point of view as you can get enough information about a potential friend/romantic partner without investing to much time and effort on people you are incompatible with.

Thanks! I'll check it out. :P

I know from my brief experience in sales that question are an invaluable tool when communicating with people. Unfortunatley I havent gotten good enough with asking questions and I have never really succeded in applying it to more normal social interactions. I'm sure that book will have many insightfull tips.

I think that this is very much the correct approach

I'm glad to hear that. :)

I'll second that. Ironically, what I have found with a lot of beautiful women, is that I run out of things to ask because they are very often not that interesting. Exceptions exist, of course.

I think most beautiful women are just like anyone else, just prettier and more used to guys hiting on them.

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Ironically, what I have found with a lot of beautiful women, is that I run out of things to ask because they are very often not that interesting.

I guess beautiful people have a lot of praise and admiration directed at them all of the time; so they can get by without developing a good personality which recognises and responds to positive values- they get all of the consequences of those values regardless (albeit from irrational people). It's the similar to when a spoilt heir/heiress receives all of the money and material possessions they could ever want but without the work ad skill their parents needed to invest to accumulate the fortune in the first place.

I'm not saying that this applies to all beautiful people but it is easier for them to fall into bad habits because of their good looks (and I should know ;-)) .

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@LiberTodd:

I'm in no position to give medical help, but you might also want to check out your general health to rule out any problems with your metabolism etc. Sometimes (rare, but it happens) it is a simple inefficiency of an organ that makes you depressed.

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@LiberTodd:

I'm in no position to give medical help, but you might also want to check out your general health to rule out any problems with your metabolism etc. Sometimes (rare, but it happens) it is a simple inefficiency of an organ that makes you depressed.

Could you please elaborate a little bit more on that?

I have just come to the conclusion that in my case there must be some medical issues involved. I have suspectet hormonal imbalances for a while and now come to the conclusion that I should see a doctor asap, however since you mentioned this I would very much like to know more.

Edited by Alfa
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Could you please elaborate a little bit more on that?

I have just come to the conclusion that in my case there must be some medical issues involved. I have suspectet hormonal imbalances for a while and now come to the conclusion that I should see a doctor asap, however since you mentioned this I would very much like to know more.

It's worth a shot having your thyroid looked at, at least. There may be other "organ inefficiencies" out there, but thyroid disorders are quite common. After taking myself off of anti-depressants several years ago, I found myself not really depressed, but just tired all the time, and feeling so tired all of the time started to affect my outlook on things. I don't think we, or any doctor, would go so far as to argue that an inefficent organ is what causes a condition like depression or anxiety, but it could certainly hinder one's ability to overcome it. Having a general blood panel run couldn't hurt. Good health provides a great disposition for rational and optimistic thought. :ninja:

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Could you please elaborate a little bit more on that?

I have just come to the conclusion that in my case there must be some medical issues involved. I have suspectet hormonal imbalances for a while and now come to the conclusion that I should see a doctor asap, however since you mentioned this I would very much like to know more.

Well, I can't give you a diagnosis over the internet :P

The best thing to do is to write everything down that might be a problem and that differentiates you and your habits from others. What also helps is to make a diary to log what you eat, how you feel and if you have any temporary problems in order to link certain substances to symptoms. There also mental 'disorders', when you think differently than others this is not necessarily a product of your rationality but could also have biological reasons.

With that you can start doing some research on the internet, there are some sites that have listed symptoms and illnesses that are possibly connected with it.

The best three things you can already do, whatever your problems are, is to drink more and more often, and to get some sunlight, especially in the winter (ok, that depends where you life, I live at 49°00′N so it gets kinda dark, so I bought me some sunlight lamps, they are also good at night :ninja: ) and to know about your diseases. It's often a big psychological relieve if you know that you have something that isn't the norm (because you compare yourself all the time to 'normal' people).

With that knowledge you can visit a doctor, then you will save time and maybe one or more examinations (although general tests like blood, urine etc. are always advisable to do every year or so).

uwaitah.jpg

Edited by Clawg
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  • 4 weeks later...

I know it's been a while but...um, i'd like to continue this thread for a little bit. Big thanks to everyone for your help. :)

Well, I can't give you a diagnosis over the internet :P

The best thing to do is to write everything down that might be a problem and that differentiates you and your habits from others. What also helps is to make a diary to log what you eat, how you feel and if you have any temporary problems in order to link certain substances to symptoms. There also mental 'disorders', when you think differently than others this is not necessarily a product of your rationality but could also have biological reasons.

With that you can start doing some research on the internet, there are some sites that have listed symptoms and illnesses that are possibly connected with it.

The best three things you can already do, whatever your problems are, is to drink more and more often, and to get some sunlight, especially in the winter (ok, that depends where you life, I live at 49°00′N so it gets kinda dark, so I bought me some sunlight lamps, they are also good at night :D ) and to know about your diseases. It's often a big psychological relieve if you know that you have something that isn't the norm (because you compare yourself all the time to 'normal' people).

With that knowledge you can visit a doctor, then you will save time and maybe one or more examinations (although general tests like blood, urine etc. are always advisable to do every year or so).

Looks like the same advice the doctor gave me. Sunlight might be an issue. I don't know how big of an issue, but I live in Sweden so it's very dark now in the winter, and I know for sure that it's affecting me - just not how much...

The thing is that "by default" everything is fine. Sure, I got som things to deal with but I have my goals set and i'm moving forward. I'm on the right track, so to speak, and most of the time it makes me feel pretty good. Problem is, it's only "most of the time". A little now and then I tend to just... break down. Everything feels like a nightmare for a little while, until I manage to pull myself together. It could be over small, ridiculous things, or just things that I usually shrug off. And, it doesent exactly help that it's atleast somewhat noticeable by others, so I tend to feel like a friggin nutcase sometimes.

One explanation could be that I have been under a lot of stress lately and I have taken a few pretty tough hits. Though a while now things have felt much better, it's still like this crap comes in cycles. The weirdest thing is that I feels just like this is not "me", there's no real reason for me to react in this kind of way, but it's like something out my control sometimes just beats me down...

I don't know if such things could be attributed to lack of sunlight, but it seems like a possibility.

---

Anyway, I write this also somewhat in regards to feeling like a nutcase at times. Although at the moment it's more like; "well, i'm fucked"...

Well, to avoid getting into any detail... I was getting a bit stressed out at work today, and as usual what that happens I tend to take a quick "time-out" to get focused again. That means, pause and think. It should be noted that when I get stressed my mind can jump between totally unrelated things. Also, since I was alone and caught up in my own thinking I might have been mumbling stuff to myself, that might have been overheard... Well, I bet you can see where this is going. Another thing to be noted is that I like using profanity when reasoning with myself.

Simply put, someone I really care for might think i'm crazy(and not in a good way ;) ), and I guess the only thing I can do is shoot myself(figuratively speaking, of course). :P

(Um, I should probably get my head togheter before posting, but anyway...)

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As the topic implies I'm looking for help in becoming more open and extroverted as a person. What I'm referring to, however, is not just about basic social skills - that's pretty simple. I'm talking more about being completely free and open towards others.

This could for example mean being better at initiating contact with others(especially women, I guess), being clear, honest and straightforward when showing both thoughts and feelings... and, perhaps above all, speaking and acting in the way you want just because you want to - because it gives you pleasure just being the way you are without boundaries and perceived social limits.

Or to put it more simply; how can I become better at showing others my lovely wonderful self? :)

How do those 3 quotes explaining the same thing? How is being more open = being honest = less problem talking to women = showing others you wonderful self ?

Why would you want to show your "wonderful self" to everyone?

I know someone who is the most open, honest person I know. Most people seriously dislike him. Call him a cold blooded bastard. :D

The reason is precisely that he is open and honest. And seeing how most people suck often, the result of his honesty is that nickname.

His "wonderful self"? I don't think anyone thinks he's wonderful, unless they are good enough people, (or his employers ;) ).

As for me: I am a very confident person. And precisely because of that, and because I am good at figuring out people's character, I DO NOT want to be open with them all, and share my inner world with them. Most are not good enough to be shared those sacred things with.

From my experience, acting "the way you are without boundaries and perceived social limits" does not go hand in hand with "showing your wonderful self". People usually relish at the opportunity of laughing at someone who acts outside social code.

This is because they do not exercise independent judgement, rather accept some lame standard for what makes someone "successful".

So my method is to do what I want, say what I think when it is needed, and share my inner world only with those who I judge to deserve it (and from whom I can get enjoyment from sharing).

Being open =/= being honest.

Doing what you want regardless of social code =/= being open, or honest.

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How is being more open = being honest = less problem talking to women = showing others you wonderful self ?

Ifat, I think you misjudged the issue here. The question has more to do with self confidence, self acceptance, becoming less second-handish. It has to do with valuing your own evaluation of yourself more than other's evaluation of you which translates into easiness in social interactions. This "openness" is about not censoring yourself out of fear of negative opinion/lack of acceptance.

I know someone who is the most open, honest person I know. Most people seriously dislike him. Call him a cold blooded bastard. ;)

The reason is precisely that he is open and honest. And seeing how most people suck often, the result of his honesty is that nickname.

His "wonderful self"? I don't think anyone thinks he's wonderful, unless they are good enough people, (or his employers :) ).

Alfa did not equate being open with being virtuous. Alfa just made a statement specifically about himself.

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