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For those of you who haven't heard but are at least remotely interested, the Liberals won again in Canada. They've got a minority government this time (i.e, less than 50% of the seats in the house) but I don't think they will have any trouble keeping up the march towards socialism - not with the NDP (the actual communist party) having more than enough seats to make up the difference.

So for all of you who live in Canada and predicted a conservative victory, I must now officially claim my I-told-you-so.

Canadians have become so complacent and cowardly that there is absolutely no chance in hell that we will get any change from the status quo in the near future. No matter how many scandals the Liberals get into, Canadians will still stick with them because that is the only "system" they know.

I'm eagerly awaiting my graduation so that I can get the hell out of here and move to the US.

--

Vecheslav Silagadze

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but I don't think they will have any trouble keeping up the march towards socialism - not with the NDP (the actual communist party) having more than enough seats to make up the difference.
I call it a death spiral myself, but that's just me.

...and the NDP isn't the ACTUAL communist party (I've found out)...there is an actual COMMUNIST party AND a MARXIST-LENINIST party!! :blink:

Oh, by their policies they're obviously insane communists, but they just don't come out and SAY they are...that'd be too obvious..take the greens for example...luddites! :dough: according to their website, but they're not going to SAY it...

No matter how many scandals the Liberals get into, Canadians will still stick with them because that is the only "system" they know.

Heh, :o , I've heard people say that they found the conservatives 'too scary' :blink: TOO SCARY?!?!? billions of taxpayer dollars pocketed/lost on HRDC scandals, gun registries, and ad-scam...and the OTHER guys are too scary?! :dough:

I'm eagerly awaiting my graduation so that I can get the hell out of here and move to the US.

That's what I told a co-worker today when he asked if I voted..."No, I'm going to vote with my feet". It's the only way I can see to bring myself out of this socialist collective(canada) and seems to ME to be the BEST way to accomplish actual change. You'll NEVER convince the socialist hordes to change their ways...theirs is the cult of compromise...right down into a communist gulag.

Now just where to go...

Nice list here, and they even mention Atlas Shrugged! :)

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The Canadian election is a classic example of why democracy is flawed. There are many hard working, honest Canadians who are vitems of Socialist policies enforced by poltical parties sustained by the Canadian voter.

Canada has a constitution which is nothing compared to that of the USA. Property rights are not enshrined and moreover Canada has a "not withstanding clause" in it which exposes the constitution to government override. And governments, in a democracy, are powered by the majority.

Until the concept of individual rights is widely understood all free (and semi-free) nations are vulnerable to the whim of the majority. Constitutions and democracies are fundamentally at odds. These days people equate democracy with freedom. Nothing can be further from the truth.

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Alright, you told me so :).

The worst part of it is how badly the conservatives sold out. Harper wanted to be PM more than he wanted to be a conservative. Consider:

- Over 2/3rds of the country is pro-private services in health care, yet Harper became a zealot for the public system. This is despite the fact that he's argued (and apparently quite well) to introduce privatization in the past.

- Harper's entire campaign was about "accountability" -- i.e. was a polemic agains the liberals. Rather then stressing tax cuts as the essence of the difference between his party and the liberals, he rarely mentioned them.

- He embraced the anti-Americanism of the other parties ("oh no, we are not looking for an American-style system") rather than challenging them on their anti-Americanism. This is despite the fact that his strong criticisms of liberal anti-Americanism was part of his rise to popularity.

The sad thing is that if that had stuck to his guns, they would have probably won as many seats *and* had the moral momentum for the next election. (BTW, why is everyone saying there will be another election within 18 months? It it mandatory when there's a minority government?).

Of course, Harper is a religious conservative. Pragmatists that they are, when will these guys learn that if they just explicitly give up their anti-abortionism they'd win every time?

I wonder if Belinda would have done better...

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I'm eagerly awaiting my graduation so that I can get the hell out of here and move to the US.

I couldn't believe i read that. To think you'd wanna leave such a great Country for the United States. And you think that's a better place to live than Canada?

I'm not gonna start USA bashing because they'll probably ban me. But if that's your choice...then don't let the door hit your ass on way over the border.

I love living in Canada. Canadians decided to go with the Liberals again because in some cases its better to go with the devil you know then the devil you don't. I voted NDP. So I'm not happy with the outcome of the election either, the way i see it is if the Conservitives were to come into power, it wouldn't be long till were the 51st state. I'm very proud of the fact that my country decided not to go to war, sticking to the traditional Canadian morals of make peace not war. The Conservitives would have us arming outer space, going to wars with the US and putting us further into debt.

I love my country with all my heart...Happy Canada Day July 1st!!

SXM

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About that list of countries to go to....

I don't know if any of you has looked at it, but the people who put it together spent no time doing any real work on it, i.e. living in the countries they recommend.

Aside from the United States being ranked #111, say what you will but the USA should at least be in the top ten, if not number one.

Countries ranked ahead of the United States,

#17- Russia

#18- Spain

#25- Vietnam

#29- United Arab Emirates

#41- Mexico

#58- India

#66- Cambodia

#78- Mongolia

#85- Egypt

#91- Pakistan

#96- Libya

#104- Iran

#108- Syria

This list is worthless.

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Aside from the United States being ranked #111, say what you will but the USA should at least be in the top ten, if not number one.

I'm probably gonna get banned for this...but why do you think it should be number one?

The US has more problems then most countries.

I'd just like to hear some concrete reasons as to why a person would leave thier country...to move to the US of all places.

SXM

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Canuckduck, so they too can become a tourist able to pull hundreds of dollars from an ATM every day.

And the Founders' philosophy, the Constitution they designed with it, and the effects of the former two which in some form yet linger.

You have yet to specify one thing good that the NDP would do [active tense].

Montesquieu, if the US isn't named first, the list is worthless. There is no country comparable to the remnants of what once was the country of reason, rights, and reality. Americanism yet signifies the revulsion of collectivism in all its forms; no other country's name has that connotation.

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Countries ranked ahead of the United States,

#17- Russia

#18- Spain

#25- Vietnam

#29- United Arab Emirates

#41- Mexico

#58- India

#66- Cambodia

#78- Mongolia

#85- Egypt

#91- Pakistan

#96- Libya

#104- Iran

#108- Syria

This list is worthless.

Wow, LIBYA, SYRIA and IRAN way ahead of the United States? :)

Those are some of the worst ditatorships in the world--not to mention the centers of the not-so-secret hide-out of Islamic terrorists. How they rated living in them to be far better than in the United States is beyond me.

Definitely worthless.

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V, my choice of city to move to is Miami. I hate the Toronto winters, I would miss the latin culture, and Miami is “freedom in paradise”. Hawaii is considerable but I like the latin culture.

But I grew up in Toronto and I still love the city.

But 93 seats for the Conservatives is nothing to frown about. The minority government situation will hopefully inspire debate on fundamental issues. What Canadians have to do is have a debate on the validity of the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms. (For you Americans and foreigners, look up this Charter on the web: you’ll find it a very silly document—yet this is what my country takes "self-esteem from--Damn Pierre Trudeau!) Also, we have to debate the Beauty of the original American ideal. The reality is that Canadians are not that much different than Americans; we experience the same culture due to great media. Americans should realize that they can be better Americans than actual Americans.

The Toronto Sun did a wonderful job this election, from what I skimmed through.

So Canada should not be discarded.

However, I hear that Alaska has no taxes on Revenue; this was on CNN. If it wasn’t for the cold, it would be ideal.

This, from the land of the Beautiful. There’s much beauty to see here in Toronto.

Ironically,

Americo.

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Canuck,

Are you an Objectivist???

A fellow canadian, yet much less proud.

p.s. I hate how Canadians can never back up why they love Canada, except for the fact that it isn't the United States. This country chose not to go to war, because no one initiated force against us! And in my opinion, even if someone did, we'd just sit back and invite them in. I am really curious to know the standard you are basing yourself on in saying that Canada is superior to the States. I am basing myself on the standard of life, represented by the Constitution of the United States, in saying that philosophically, the States are superior in the recognition of Individual Rights vs. Canada. The Canadian Charter of Rights is a joke.

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The basic, unnamed question at the heart of Canadian culture is: is Canada fundamentally European nation or an American one? I think this perspective illuminates Canada’s history and its attitude towards the States.

From what I can tell, Canadians are in general much more like Americans than Europeans in their implicit philosophy. Conflicting with that, however, is Canada's historical identity. At the core of Canadian history is Canada’s *choice* in the 18th century to remain a dutiful, obedient subject of England rather than assert its own independence. Throughout the 19th century, Canada never demanded sovereignty – it was given it essentially as a gift by Britain. So on the one hand Canadians are implicitly pro-reason, pro-freedom, and pro-pursuit of personal happiness like the U.S (to the extent that the U.S is still implicitly this way), and on the other they are historically and culturally committed to identifying with European collectivism and servitude.

Anti-Americanism logically follows from identifying with Canada and Canadian values -- if Canada was right in its historical actions, then by virtue of that the States was wrong. Anyone who knows Canadian history and politics, thinks it enshrines Canadian values, and then embraces Canada *on that basis*, will necessarily resent America.

I don't think this is why the “average” Canadian loves Canada. I think that to him Canadiana basically means American values + hockey, Canadian music, Canadian beer, and various Canadian achievements like the Anne of Green Gables books or the story of the battle of Vimy Ridge. That said, remember Ayn Rand’s point that the identity of a culture is defined by its intellectuals. Canadian intellectuals love Canada because its basic historical and political theme is the lack of personal assertiveness, and they resent America because its theme is the opposite.

[in this post I've treated Canada as if it's regionally homogeous, but there is also the issue of whether it's better to analyze Canada as having two regionally defined identities: Ontario (despite being covered in Liberal red) and Alberta are more American in their character and feel, and Quebec, the Atlantic provinces, and B.C more European. I don’t know where Manitoba and Saskatchewan would fit into this].

AMERICONORMAN: I agree 100% that “there’s much beauty here to see in Toronto”. There is *such* a variety of gorgeous districts, neighborhoods, and parks, each with their own distinct feel, that anyone who enjoys walking or rollerblading will find it impossible not to fall in love with the city (especially if he also owns a car :confused: ). And thanks to Donald Trump the skyline’s coming along too.

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Canuck,

Don't ask me why people whould pick up everything where they are and come to the United States, ask them. Thousands upon thousands of people pick up everything every year, sometimes risking their lives, to get to the United States and they exist in wide abundance to talk to. Also an immense brain drain exists from all over the world to the United States as people who recieve college degrees, especially in nationalized fields like medicine, know they can come to the United States and make money unashamedly. As for me, I can see no other country where I would enjoy more freedom or not be ridiculed by the public at large for accumulating wealth. I'd rather take my chances here than anywhere else.

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America-hating commie.
Thanks for the warning...although i can see now this forum is not imparcial. So i can't feel free to speak my mind because i might offend some of our southern friends. What about free speach? That's in your constitution isn't it?

So if i have a problem with the US shouldn't i be allowed to voice it, so that smart intellectual americans may post their thoughts..who knows maybe they'll explain something i've misunderstood about americans. And then maybe i'll stand up during thier national anthem next time.

Also thanks to everyone replied positive or negative your opinion matters to me.

I think that to him Canadiana basically means American values + hockey, Canadian music, Canadian beer, and various Canadian achievements like the Anne of Green Gables books or the story of the battle of Vimy Ridge.

You did a great job my friend summing up our stereotypes, silly american thinking he know's everything....cheer brotha eh!

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Thanks for the warning...although i can see now this forum is not imparcial. So i can't feel free to speak my mind because i might offend some of our southern friends. What about free speach? That's in your constitution isn't it?

No, not really. That has to do with government regulations, not some assumption that you can claim a right to someone else's property. The forum itself is totally impartial, though the participants may not be. In fact, we have a distinct preference for Objectivist philosophy. And actually you can feel free to speak your mind. But then we feel free to criticise you for what you say (free speech and all -- it's a multi-edged sword).

So if i have a problem with the US shouldn't i be allowed to voice it, so that smart intellectual americans may post their thoughts..who knows maybe they'll explain something i've misunderstood about americans. And then maybe i'll stand up during thier national anthem next time.

Sure, but where? You can say what you want on your property. When you are a guest in someone's property, you need to observe whatever rules they establish. From what I've seen, if you keep a civil tongue on your head, you can propably say what you want. I'm not aware of any person being banned for having an unoppular view.

If I felt a smidgeon of interest, I might demand that you prove your slanderous assertion that America has more problems than most contries. We don't have Ontario beer stores, which is the end of the story as far as I'm concerned.

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The US has more problems then most countries.

Do you mean a higher quantity of problems, or that the problems that we have here are more significant? I got the impression that you meant the US has worse problems than most other countries, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. If you do think the problems in the US are worse, what do you consider the major problems (that other countries don't have)?

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Canuckduck, please feel free to speak your mind. But understand that Objectivists have a penchant for judging you on your words. They aren't so understanding; their stance is not, "oh, so your opinion completely negates mine, existentially and morally? well, we'll just forget all about everything and be friends."

Whether or not you offend anybody shouldn't be your concern (unless you value talking to them). I don't believe anybody here is PC (and if some people are, they shouldn't be).

Our Constitution is not the basis of our ethics in America, but the other way around. We wrote the Constitution as we did because we valued as we did.

If you have a problem with the US (in which regard Canada is just fine), please speak your mind. Understand, though, that as people who live by their capability to reason, Objectivists will denounce you for it (and provide much evidence for which denunciation). But don't let that stop you.

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Howdy All,

America can be pretty screwed up. As an American I will own up to that. Having said it, I must also add that America is the MOST free country around.

If there was a country that understood the concept of the inalienable rights of man, (Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.), and who's government respected those rights, I would have already moved. As much as I love my country, I love my freedom first.

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I don't think this is why the “average” Canadian loves Canada.  I think that to him Canadiana basically means American values + hockey, Canadian music, Canadian beer, and various Canadian achievements like the Anne of Green Gables books or the story of the battle of Vimy Ridge.

Not to mention, the moral "superiority" to the United States that universal health care brings along.

The majority of Canadians do not want Conservatism, infact large masses of the popular vote are herding toward the socialist NDP. The Lie-berals made huge mistakes, a multi-million dollar sponsorship scandal, 2 billion dollar ineffective gun registry, and the 1 billion dollar HRDC boondoggle, all to be rewarded with re-election. Imagine what the next election will be like, when Martin regains some credibility. I think that if Martin works without a major scandal for the next 12-16 months, he will be elected with a majority.

I've given up on political persuasion in Canada. I might represent my constituency for the Freedom Party in 2008 which is Canada's only capitalist party, but I'm done trying to spend enormous amounts of time on why freedom is better than slavery. Most people just simply disagree, and actually think individualism is highly immoral.

There was a radio show on recently that was discussing a survey in which 50% of the respondants said they would leave Canada if they were offered a job in the US. Many of the subsequent callers said they would leave "in a heartbeat" too. An older lady came on and admitted her disgust toward the previous callers, identifying them as "unpatriotic". She educated listeners on how Canada is the best place to live in the world and droned on about other patriotic things.

What I believe is that the woman disguises her patriotism in her belief that the country will fall without the "producers". People who contribute to others and don't leech. She knows her welfare system will fall as more and more Canadians who are being shortchanged leave Canada for a place that recognises the benefits of their talents and does not take away their rewards. Hence, the "Brain Drain" and the constant questioning of how to reverse it on the socialist state-funded media channels. That woman depends on this welfare system to improve her life. Without stealing from other people she knows she wouldn't be in the condition she is, and she's scared, just like many other Canadians voting socialist.

Canadians have got what they wanted though, they've punished the producers in society and now the producers are leaving leaving. I would like to immigrate to the US some time, but it may be a long and costly procedure, so Calgary is probably a better (but colder) option. Is NH a good state?

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- Over 2/3rds of the country is pro-private services in health care, yet Harper became a zealot for the public system.  This is despite the fact that he's argued (and apparently quite well) to introduce privatization in the past.

- Harper's entire campaign was about "accountability" -- i.e. was a polemic agains the liberals.  Rather then stressing tax cuts as the essence of the difference between his party and the liberals, he rarely mentioned them.

I'm curious as to where you got the 2/3 statistic - it sounds too high too me. I recall seeing numbers much lower a while ago (...it was in the National Post when the private/public hospital opened up).

Re: polemic

Isn't that how all elections are run these days? when was the last time you saw a conservative defeat that wasn't a result of a pragmatic platform?

I remember reading line by an Objectivist intellectual (Tracinsky?) that was about the Microsoft anti-trust trials: "when they loose in court they conclude that it isn't a result of compromising on their principles, but that it is because they don't compromise fast enough"

Sums it up nicely. Pragmatists never learn.

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I'm curious as to where you got the 2/3 statistic - it sounds too high too me. I recall seeing numbers much lower a while ago (...it was in the National Post when the private/public hospital opened up).

Although I remembered the correct number, I did make the point seem stronger than it is. Here is the statement on the website of Environics, the company conducting the poll:

"Two-thirds support private sector delivery of health care, as long as it is publicly financed. One-half think they should have the right to buy private health care out of their own pocket to obtain timely access."

The National Post adds that support for private sector delivery (but still public funding) is "highest in Quebec, at 68%, and Manitoba and Saskatchewan, the birthplace of medicare, at 57%". That sounds strange to me -- I would have thought that Alberta would have had the strongest results and Quebec the weakest.

Here is the wording of the two questions:

Question #1: "Would you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose having health care services provided by the private sector, if patients did not have to pay out of their own pockets for these services and the services were covered by tax dollars exactly the same way they are now?" 31% of Canadians said they strongly supported it, and 35% said they somewhat supported it.

Question #2: "Do you agree or disagree that individual Canadians should be given the right to buy private health care within Canada if they do not receive timely access to services in the public system, even if this might weaken the principle of universal access to health care for all Canadians by making it possible for some people to have quicker access to services?" 50% of Canadians said they agreed.

Details from the survey: "The above results are based on an omnibus survey conducted by Environics by telephone between June 16 and 21, 2004 among a probability sample of 1,500 adult Canadians (aged 18 or older). The sample is estimated to be accurate within plus or minus 2.5 percentage points, 19 times out of 20."

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In response to another question asked in the current survey, one-half (50%) say they agree that individual Canadians should be given the right to buy private health care within Canada if they do not receive timely access to services in the public system, even if this might weaken the principle of universal access to health care for all Canadians by making it possible for some people to have quicker access to services. Although opinion is divided on the subject - 46 percent oppose the idea - it is significant that the survey finds such a high level of agreement even when the spectre of two-tier health care is raised.
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Thanks for the warning...although i can see now this forum is not imparcial. So i can't feel free to speak my mind because i might offend some of our southern friends. What about free speach? That's in your constitution isn't it?

So if i have a problem with the US shouldn't i be allowed to voice it, so that smart intellectual americans may post their thoughts..who knows maybe they'll explain something i've misunderstood about americans. And then maybe i'll stand up during thier national anthem next time.

Also thanks to everyone replied positive or negative your opinion matters to me.

You did a great job my friend summing up our stereotypes, silly american thinking he know's everything....cheer brotha eh!

Canuck, you have spent loads of time to say the square root of sod all. :yarr:

You have favoured nothing except for Canada for no reason and you have merely bashed America in typical leftist fashion.

If you are a typical Canadian then you deserve all you get. Or maybe you should come and live in the socialist republic of Glasgow :confused: .

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