Old Toad Posted December 10, 2007 Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 Out of the hundreds (or more) of summons I've written, including many more of ones I've assisted other officers with or know to be have been written, I can only think of two in which someone who otherwise appears to be "normal" refused to sign the summons and had to be arrested. ... In every other case, even those in which an officer's actions were grossly inappropriate, people signed the summons. ... While you think that a clarification of the consequence of not signing the summons could have made a difference, I think that based on the totality of the tape it would not have. That guy was intent on settling the matter on the side of the road, not in the proper forum of the court. RB, This is some helpful context for me. I had imagined that temper-tantrums at the scene would be more common. I do not know if saying another couple of sentences to this driver about his choice to sign the summons or be arrested would have made any difference to him or not. While I think it might have, I defer to your experience as to what would have likely happened even after giving him a warning. However, giving such a clear warning would have made a big difference to me in judging the officer's decision to arrest him, let alone all that flowed from it. I also appreciated your other discussion of the officer's technical mistakes in effecting the arrest, which I have no training to judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalBiker Posted December 10, 2007 Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 (edited) I had imagined that temper-tantrums at the scene would be more common. Temper tantrums are but refusing to sign tickets is rare. More often if a person doesn't want to be arrested or summonsed, they just plain flee in the vehicle or jump out and run. I won't say unequivocally that telling the guy the consequence for not signing couldn't have made a difference, just based on the totality of the circumstances I think it wouldn't have. We will never know at this point. Edited December 10, 2007 by RationalBiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moebius Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 Out of the hundreds (or more) of summons I've written, including many more of ones I've assisted other officers with or know to be have been written, I can only think of two in which someone who otherwise appears to be "normal" refused to sign the summons and had to be arrested. I am not saying that refusing to sign the citation is typical. I think the guy would have signed it, but simply wanted a clarification on the charges -- which is pretty typical. Out of the hundreds of summons you've written, I think you have to discount all the ones that are clearly guilty first since they would just take the summon. What you're left with is people who are barely over the speed limit, in which case I don't think arguing or asking is out of the ordinary. With the exception of getting out of the car (probably under the mistaken premise that Old Toad mentioned about going back to look at the sign), the man was defiant against being charged, whether by summons or arrest. While you think that a clarification of the consequence of not signing the summons could have made a difference, I think that based on the totality of the tape it would not have. That guy was intent on settling the matter on the side of the road, not in the proper forum of the court. You honestly think that a young white guy driving in seemingly the middle of nowhere with his young wife in a relatively good-conditioned SUV would rather be arrested and thrown in jail than to just eat a traffic ticket? Sorry but I think not. To me it is pretty clear that he did not realize he was being arrested, or for that matter that not signing to summon would lead to arrested. Yeah sure maybe he thought he could weasel his way out of a ticket. But then that's not really an unreasonable assumption since that's done ALL THE TIME (although in my personal experience mostly when the driver is a young attractive woman). He got out of the car probably thinking that the cop was going to produce proof of his speeding or whatever, and suddenly and inexplicably the officer pointed a weapon in his face and began shouting -- so he panicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalBiker Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 You honestly think that a young white guy driving in seemingly the middle of nowhere with his young wife in a relatively good-conditioned SUV would rather be arrested and thrown in jail than to just eat a traffic ticket? What I honestly know is that is what his actions communicated, regardless of whether he's white, young, has a nice SUV or whatever. Sorry, but I'm not going to psychologize why he refused to sign the summons and refused to submit to arrest, I'm just going to note that is what in fact he did. He can explain to a judge why. To me it is pretty clear that he did not realize he was being arrested, or for that matter that not signing to summon would lead to arrested. Well, I can't argue with that. The words "turn around and put your hands behind your back" mean something different to you, something that when an officer pointing a TASER at you means "It's okay, I can just ignore him and walk away." At any rate, I've made all the argument I care to at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalBiker Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 Incidentally, this article reports that the state investigation concluded the officer's actions were "lawful and reasonable under the circumstances". It also mentioned that they have asked the Utah Attorney General's to review the incident to see if criminal charges are appropriate. I also encountered articles on the same date that said the investigation was ongoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xare Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 Recently there has been a wave of taser incidents, starting right about the time that kid to tasered for asking John Kerry if he was a member of Skull and Bones. Its almost like the Cops were all instructed to be more liberal with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
progressiveman1 Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 Recently there has been a wave of taser incidents, starting right about the time that kid to tasered for asking John Kerry if he was a member of Skull and Bones. Its almost like the Cops were all instructed to be more liberal with them. How do you know there has been more use of the Taser recently than before that event? Have you seen statistics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-archimedes- Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 (edited) While it could be, and to an extent here and elsewhere has been, argued that the video poses substantive questions of the propriety of the stop, i.e., whether the party of the first part (the officer) was justified in making the stop (e.g., speed trap/entrapment scenarios), which facilitated the actions of the party in the second part (the driver), the real/causative/actionable question here is whether or not Utah law mandates/authorizes arrest/the use of force for refusing to sign a traffic citation...a question that can only be answered via a review of the relative Utah traffic/motor vehicle/arrest statutes and laws. Everything and anything outside of this, the relative context, is little more than supposition and conjecture fueled by ignorance of the facts and circumstances pertaining to any given situation in the absence of the guiding laws and precepts, mixed with a healthy dose of knee-jerk reflexive responsiveness to the apparent and dramatic use of force displayed in the video. By and large, an all too generous portion of the problems with today's world is the resultant misunderstanding of things being taken out of context. "We all sit around in a ring and suppose, while the secret sits in the center and knows." In this instance the "center" is that piece of our world known as "Utah". Edited December 14, 2007 by -archimedes- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 As a follow-up to this case, the state of Utah has settled a civil law-suit with the guy who was tasered. He will get $40,000 from the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 As a follow-up to this case, the state of Utah has settled a civil law-suit with the guy who was tasered. He will get $40,000 from the state. Not a bad trade. Where do I go to get tasered? (And how fast do I need to drive? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RationalBiker Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Thanks for the follow up sNerd.... I missed that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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