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Two more shootings -- likely related -- in Colorado

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An interesting tidbit from an ABC story written an hour ago:

"Haggard and the New Life Church had links to Youth With a Mission. The two groups worked together on a controversial missionary program that focused on converting people in Muslim countries to Christianity."

So, it could have been an Islamic fundamentalist, perhaps? I guess we'll have to wait until further facts are revealed. Right now they're not even releasing the identity of the gunman who was killed at New Life.

Here's a link to the ABC story:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=3977342&page=2

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Right now they're not even releasing the identity of the gunman who was killed at New Life.

The first link you provided said his name was "Matthew Murray", they didn't name the woman who shot him, though, so that's maybe where the confusion came from. Further down in the article, it says he attacked the church in Arvada after he was refused lodging at their mission, so it really sounds like a solitary nut.

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Yeah, it looks like CNN is updating the story at the same URL. There was no name when I first posted the story. Later in the story (as it appears now, at this moment, until they rewrite it again) it says that *police* have yet to identify him, so I guess the news agencies have found a source willing to name names earlier. In any event, the guy showed up armed when he asked for lodging, so I am still interested to hear what they'll have to say about motive later. Asking for a place to stay might just be a way to gain admittance to the facility.

I think it may have been in the other article where they were talking about the search of the residence (maybe Murray's?), and that the authorities were carrying out boxes of stuff. So maybe there's paraphernalia that will be related to a motive.

The first link you provided said his name was "Matthew Murray", they didn't name the woman who shot him, though, so that's maybe where the confusion came from. Further down in the article, it says he attacked the church in Arvada after he was refused lodging at their mission, so it really sounds like a solitary nut.
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Or maybe it was just someone who believed in Freedom of Religion.

I honestly can't say I'm upset by this one. I don't condone killing, but it's kind of like hearing about someone shooting up a kkk meeting or something.

You think so? Are you suggesting that those with a true devotion to religious freedom should gun down anyone they see entering or leaving a church? Do you really believe that the people murdered there were the moral equivalent to members of the kkk? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and allow that your statement was just some poor attempt at humor. But I suspect it was more likely an attempt to demonstrate you atheist credentials by taking a cheap and easy shot at Christianity. Bravo. What will you do for an encore? Steal candy from a baby?

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You think so? Are you suggesting that those with a true devotion to religious freedom should gun down anyone they see entering or leaving a church? Do you really believe that the people murdered there were the moral equivalent to members of the kkk? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and allow that your statement was just some poor attempt at humor. But I suspect it was more likely an attempt to demonstrate you atheist credentials by taking a cheap and easy shot at Christianity. Bravo. What will you do for an encore? Steal candy from a baby?

K, this isn't a church we're talking about, it's a place that trains people to force their religion on other people. The only difference between them and the kkk is that the kkk uses fear and terrorism while these guys go around convincing third-world children that they will go to hell if they don't read the Bible. Oh wait...

And furthermore, I clearly stated that I don't condone killing in any way, but I wasn't really upset about it. There's a big mess of a difference. If you're really capable of taking my original post and thinking that it means I want to gun down all Christians, I suggest you invest in something like this:

tmmenglish.gif

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FWIW, I heard on the radio today that the shooter (same shooter at both the mission and at New Life) had been rejected from the mission program and was writing the mission hate mail. New Life Church has involvement with the mission, hence his going to shoot more people there hours after the first incident.

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On the news last night, the female security guard (a former police officer) took no credit for the shooting and gave all the credit to God. She said it was just her, the gunman and God in that hallway. :dough:

The woman was herself a "New Lifer", so that's par for the course.

Please don't beat your head against the wall any more, those twits aren't worth it. :)

I'll get my stress relief from watching Richard Dawkins' interview of Ted Haggard again tonight.

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On the news last night, the female security guard (a former police officer) took no credit for the shooting and gave all the credit to God. She said it was just her, the gunman and God in that hallway. :dough:

I just saw her on video. What she did was fantastic and she does deserve credit, even if she won't give her self any.

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Autopsy results show he died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, but the security guard did hit him several times. Had she not been there, he surely would not have killed himself so quickly, so I still give her credit. Certainly not the gunman or God.

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K, this isn't a church we're talking about, it's a place that trains people to force their religion on other people. The only difference between them and the kkk is that the kkk uses fear and terrorism while these guys go around convincing third-world children that they will go to hell if they don't read the Bible.

You know, I never looked at it that way. You might be right. Maybe there really is little difference between that 16 year old girl, or that 18 year old girl who were gunned down the other day and say, Byron De La Beckwith. It was silly of me to question your obvious vast grasp of all things Christian, not to mention your deep understanding of the nature and history of the KKK. Perhaps that crazed gunman did the world a favor after all...not that I condone killing, of course, but these missionaries had to be stopped.

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You know, I never looked at it that way. You might be right. Maybe there really is little difference between that 16 year old girl, or that 18 year old girl who were gunned down the other day and say, Byron De La Beckwith. It was silly of me to question your obvious vast grasp of all things Christian, not to mention your deep understanding of the nature and history of the KKK. Perhaps that crazed gunman did the world a favor after all...not that I condone killing, of course, but these missionaries had to be stopped.

Ok, for the sake of peace I'm just going to end this conversation right here and now. You obviously can't see the difference between "not caring about something" and "shooting something" so I just don't see the point.

I'd hate to see what you do to your junk mail.

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FWIW, I heard on the radio today that the shooter (same shooter at both the mission and at New Life) had been rejected from the mission program and was writing the mission hate mail. New Life Church has involvement with the mission, hence his going to shoot more people there hours after the first incident.

It takes a Fundy to shoot a Fundy. The shooter said in his e-mails that he was out to get as many as he could (The Star Ledger story dated 12/12/07).

I have come to the conclusion that organized religion is a curse, a blight and a vexation upon the human race.

Bob Kolker

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I have come to the conclusion that organized religion is a curse, a blight and a vexation upon the human race.

For the most part I agree. However, it can have certain positive aspects, such as strengthening communities and providing a basic algorithm for social stability in areas populated by the uneducated citizens of the world. However, it's negative ramifications overshadow this almost completely.

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FWIW, I heard on the radio today that the shooter (same shooter at both the mission and at New Life) had been rejected from the mission program and was writing the mission hate mail. New Life Church has involvement with the mission, hence his going to shoot more people there hours after the first incident.

So let me see, this person lost it when they attempted to assume a missionary position and got rejected?

:lol:

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LiberTodd, you are completely out of line. Yes, most of the people at that church probably believe that religion and politics should be intimately related. But, unlike the KKK, they believe in pushing their agenda through legitimate political means, not brute force like the KKK. If the members of that church were known to hang homosexuals from trees, your point would be more legitimate. As it is, what you said is pretty despicable. Nothing those people did made them deserve death.

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