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Ayn Rand as Counter-Jihad

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Oxygen

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I think it is important to spread the ideas of Ayn Rand as a way of hindering Islamic long-term expansion in the west (there are other reasons as well.) To accomplish this Objectivism should be spread both to muslims and to non-muslims all over the world.

I made a short web-page about this theme. It can be reached by clicking on this link: Ayn Rand as Counter-Jihad

I plan to market the page on Internet by attaching keywords that searchengines like Google are looking for. Before I do that I would like opinions from you people what you think of the idea and what you think of the web page. I would appreciate your respons.

It is lovely to write in this forum of other lovers of the ideas of Ayn Rand.

Edited by Johan Rune
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I think it is important to spread the ideas of Ayn Rand as a way of hindering Islamic long-term expansion in the west (there are other reasons as well.) To accomplish this Objectivism should be spread both to muslims and to non-muslims all over the world.

I made a short web-page about this theme. It can be reached by clicking on this link: Ayn Rand as Counter-Jihad

I plan to market the page on Internet by attaching keywords that searchengines like Google are looking for. Before I do that I would like opinions from you people what you think of the idea and what you think of the web page. I would appreciate your respons.

It is lovely to write in this forum of other lovers of the ideas of Ayn Rand.

To produce a -jihad- one must appeal to the passions of people, more than to their reason. Is this how you want to "sell" Objectivism? There are much more effective ways of fighting against Islam.

Bob Kolker

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To produce a -jihad- one must appeal to the passions of people, more than to their reason. Is this how you want to "sell" Objectivism? There are much more effective ways of fighting against Islam.

Bob Kolker

Thanks for your answer.

I see a lot of passion in Objectivism. Ayn Rand's books are loaded with energy. The spoken words of Ayn Rand (in the lectures that are free on "Registered user page" on www.aynrand.org) beams with passion, power and conviction. I think I remember in one of the books that one of the heroes said something like "... is my religion", where the blank is something like maybe the supremacy of the individual. Many Ayn Rand-fans are probably very passionalte about the values that Islam threatens on a long-term basis. And passion is transferable and infectuous - so objectivists have a strong case in evoking passion in other for egoism and against the antagonists of egoism (like Islam.) What do you think? Personally I also think the books by Ayn Rand and other objectivist products increases my overall energy and passion.

Objectivism is perhaps the only ideas that states that rational egoism and capitalism are good, that they are virtues. If people doesn´t have a strong pride about these values - which I think Objectivism brings - they are more prone to not take a stand against Islam's threats to individual rights and a free society. I would also love to see Muslims start loving the ideas and books by Ayn Rand.

I do think that spreading Objectivism is one of the best long-term ways to fight Islam. One purpose of promoting this way of Counter-Jihad is to introduce Ayn Rand to persons that haven´t heard of her before but are searching for information about Jihad and Counter-Jihad (The term "Counter-Jihad" is mentioned and promoted by David Pearl, appearing in the panel of ARI: s video that I link to on the website I have made, Ayn Rand as Counter-Jihad.)

I would like to hear more opinions and arguments from you about this and also from others.

I don't think that fighting Jihad or Communism is Objectivists' first concern. It is an error to try to promote Objectivism by saying what it is against, rather than what it is for and what it is.

Promoting what Objectivism stands for is a great point. I probably should add that to my web-page.

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I have a couple of suggestions. You start saying "It is prognoses that in a not that far distant future half of Europe’s population will be Muslim mostly because of immigration." You mean "prognosed" of course, but my main objection is that I don't believe you (nothing personal, I just doubt that there is such a prediction and I'm frankly very skeptical that it's true). If you have a credible source for this prediction, I would say, give the source. Your purpose is to persuade, and if you start with unsubstantiated non-credible claims, people are just not going to stay tuned in. I would also shy away from arbitrary conjectures about imposing Sharia, and instead talk about facts. The disadvantage of the aritrary conjecture is that it can be refuted by a simple analogy -- the majority of Europeans are Christian of some ilk and they have not (in general) imposed Church Law on Europe. Why would you expect there to be a difference under an Islamic majority? (Explain why). Second, I suggest that you look to actual impositions and threats of imposition of Sharia. I have actually heard talk of more "integration" of Sharia into England in highly Muslim areas like Leeds and Manchester, so I would point to the actual thin end of the edge, to concretize the reality of the threat.

Your second pragraph is ungrammatical: what do you mean there? What is this "seem" business? Are you simply telling us how you feel, or did you count up terrorist attacks? What are the exact numbers? And I hate to tell you this, but your count is way off. The incidence of terrorist attacks by Northern Irish Christians far surpasses the count of Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe (why do I mention Europe? Well, you contextualized this in the first paragraph as a threat facing Europe). If you want to say that Muslims are responsible for most more terrorist attacks in Europe than any other religious group, you should be prepared to support that claim with facts (a cursory examination indicates that since the IRA ceasefire, the claim may be correct for Europe).

That said, your statement that Muslims should be "converted to the views of Ayn Rand" is wrong in suggesting that there's a "conversion" and wrong in suggesting that Muslims in particular need to be made into Objectivists. Forcing a person to read Rand's novels (that what "make" means) would be immoral and ineffective: the act of reading does not automatically cause thinking and accepting.

Why exactly are you writing this? Are you trying to convince non-Muslims that Objectivism is opposed to Islamism? Or are you trying to persuade Muslims to abandon Islam and adopt Objectivism? The first point isn't in doubt, and it is not the fact about Objectivism that I think should be the lead-in to people's knowledge of Objectivism. I don't see how you can accomplish the second point this way, because you have not identified any point of common ground that could lead to broader agreement (like, abandonment of Islam).

Strategically, my suggestion is to abandon the actual Islamist audience, and instead focus on the ordinary perfunctorily-Muslim citizen of Muslim nations, the ones with the same kind of low-level lip service interest in the predominant religion that you find in England, Norway, Germany and France. You want to persuade them of something, something that they already know. I would thus focus on the fact that many of them already understand -- the virtue of capitalism, and (many of them having lived under dictaorships in Iran, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Pakistan etc.) the virtue of freedom.

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Second, I suggest that you look to actual impositions and threats of imposition of Sharia. I have actually heard talk of more "integration" of Sharia into England in highly Muslim areas like Leeds and Manchester, so I would point to the actual thin end of the edge, to concretize the reality of the threat.

@Oxygen: To the end of David's suggestion, you might want to check out the following books:

  • While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer. Although I think that this book is a mess in terms of organization, it contains a lot of facts and anecdotal cases of radical Islam seeping into Europe.

  • Eurabia by Bat Ye'or. This book focuses more on broad political trends, for example in the United Nations and in the Arab League, of radical Islam having influence on Europe. It is a denser read than Bawer's book, but it is still accessible. Yaron Brook of the Ayn Rand Institute has recommended this book during a panel discussion on Islamic Totalitarianism.

I have not read the following two books, but they might also be of interest to you:

  • Decline and Fall: Europe's Slow Motion Suicide by Bruce Thornton. Although I have not read this title, I have read the author's book The Greek Way: How the Greeks Created Western Civilization, which was excellent. The author is a classicist by training, so I am unsure to what extent he can speak on the growing trend of militant Islam in Europe.

  • Londonistan by Melanie Phillips. This has received excellent reviews on Amazon.com.

  • America Alone by Mark Steyn. This has also received excellent reviews on Amazon.com.

You are probably familiar with several of these already. I hope that this helps!

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I have long thought the problems, while real, are quite overblown or misrepresented in many respects and are often used as a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) basis for racism, with much of the rest of the complaints made by whiners going on not about a lack of respect for rights but about how Islam is supplanting Christianity as the predominant religion in Europe. Richard Dawkins - no friend of religion - wrote that his hackles rise (as they should) when someone refers to "Muslim children", and I concur wholeheartedly with his point that children are just children, all of whom are human beings and potentially capable of either greatness or ignominy as their own choices take them. Always avoid the temptation to make a group identification and condemnation, Oxygen, especially ones that are implicitly or explicitly race-based.

Strategically, my suggestion is to abandon the actual Islamist audience, and instead focus on the ordinary perfunctorily-Muslim citizen of Muslim nations, the ones with the same kind of low-level lip service interest in the predominant religion that you find in England, Norway, Germany and France.

Very good point. The problems faced exist, primarily, simply because of the inability or unwillingness of many intellectuals to stand up for what is good about western culture and demonstrate its value to newcomers. The best way to deal with the problem is therefore to step into the breach, "subvert" the receptive among immigrants (why them alone?) through showing the truth and value on offer.

You want to persuade them of something, something that they already know. I would thus focus on the fact that many of them already understand -- the virtue of capitalism, and (many of them having lived under dictatorships in Iran, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Pakistan etc.) the virtue of freedom.

Exactly. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, Oxygen, middle-eastern cultures have had strong trading traditions for thousands of years, and this is an immense positive. If you're going to do something, then build on that positive and suffocate the negative with it.

An instructive anecdote: a local news magazine published an article about famous Australian stockbroker Rene Rivkin not long after he died. One story it recounted was about how he went into a store run by Arabs and wanted to buy something but wasn't prepared to pay the ticket price. The shopkeeper was having none of that, until eventually Rene said in a no-nonsense tone "Look, I'm a Jew, you're a Muslim, neither of us pay retail." This got the shopkeeper's respect and the two finally began real negotiations. Rene got his discount.

You wouldn't be alone, either. I frequently come across the claim (which I have no means to assess the veracity of) that the youth of Iran (yes, Iran!) are surprisingly pro-USA, much to their foaming-fundie government's dismay. Similarly, I have seen quite a large number of pictures of Lebanese protesters seeking freedom from Syrian oppression, with scenes including large numbers of lovely young ladies - presumably nominally Muslim - in the kind of close-fitting jeans and tops that the likes of Pat Buchanan and Rush Limbaugh spit chips about. The Muslims getting notoriety are a minority who are intimidating the rest. Just as the great majority of alleged Christians are actually nowhere near as Christian as they like to think, there are plenty of Muslims who aren't actually as Muslim, either. They are the ones you want to find, insofar as it is specifically Muslims you want to deal with (for whatever reason).

JJM

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I think it is important to spread the ideas of Ayn Rand as a way of hindering Islamic long-term expansion in the west (there are other reasons as well.) To accomplish this Objectivism should be spread both to Muslims and to non-Muslims all over the world.

I sympathize with your goals, as I think that spreading Objectivism is our best hope of preventing a cultural disaster or the collapse of civilization.

The problem with your approach, however, is that the Muslims are well aware of reason, but they explicitly reject it.

Actually, historically, the Renaissance and the re-acceptance of Aristotle began with the Muslims; and the Christians got it from them. This happened between 1100 AD and 1300 AD (don't know the exact date). And Aristotle was all the rage all throughout Europe and the Middle East. However, there was an imam who decided it was against the religion of Islam and had a counter revolution, throwing out Aristotle completely.

In other words, for the Islamic Fundamentalists -- and the one's most likely to become terrorists -- the rejection of reason (and therefore the rejection of Ayn Rand and Objectivism) are built into the teachings, fairly explicitly. And you would be hard pressed to convert them because of that.

So, I don't think the goal of the West ought to be to convert the radical Islamists, but rather to contain them, as they are dangerous. If they can be converted, well OK, but if one has been taught to reject reason, then it will be difficult to offer them incentives based on reason. The point is to not let them become political leaders for the sake of imposing Islamic Law on everyone in that country or that region.

Unfortunately, the West, too, has all but given up on reason, so many of our own leaders do not see that reason is superior to faith or skepticism; which means they are not going to take that approach. In other words, they don't take ideas seriously, and so are not going to follow the rational approach, which would be to get rid of the Madrases. And in the current political context, that would mean destroying Iran and Saudi Arabia and to never let an Islamic state rise again -- in self-defense of individual rights; for the same reason we should not have let the Soviet Union arise and for the same reason we destroyed Nazi Germany and Imperialistic Japan.

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Thanks to everybody who has made comments. It was great help and as you can see on the site, which was updated december 25, you have contributed rather much to the site as it is as today. I would like to have receive even more comments about the page because of this update. Regardless I feel confident to start marketing the site on the web now.

I have a couple of suggestions. You start saying "It is prognoses that in a not that far distant future half of Europe’s population will be Muslim mostly because of immigration." You mean "prognosed" of course, but my main objection is that I don't believe you (nothing personal, I just doubt that there is such a prediction and I'm frankly very skeptical that it's true). If you have a credible source for this prediction, I would say, give the source.

That was another great point. I have now published a changed version of the webpage with sources and rephrasing. I did some shaping up on other parts as well.

Second, I suggest that you look to actual impositions and threats of imposition of Sharia. I have actually heard talk of more "integration" of Sharia into England in highly Muslim areas like Leeds and Manchester, so I would point to the actual thin end of the edge, to concretize the reality of the threat.

Perhaps I will give information about this important point. I want it to be a limited amount of information, though.

That said, your statement that Muslims should be "converted to the views of Ayn Rand" is wrong in suggesting that there's a "conversion" and wrong in suggesting that Muslims in particular need to be made into Objectivists. Forcing a person to read Rand's novels (that what "make" means) would be immoral and ineffective: the act of reading does not automatically cause thinking and accepting.

I define what I mean with "conversion", and therefor I think it is ok.

Forcing anybody to read Rand would be wrong and would not work. I changed wording from "make" do "persuade".

Why exactly are you writing this? Are you trying to convince non-Muslims that Objectivism is opposed to Islamism? Or are you trying to persuade Muslims to abandon Islam and adopt Objectivism? The first point isn't in doubt, and it is not the fact about Objectivism that I think should be the lead-in to people's knowledge of Objectivism. I don't see how you can accomplish the second point this way, because you have not identified any point of common ground that could lead to broader agreement (like, abandonment of Islam).

I want to convince non-Muslims that Objectivism is opposed to Islamism. I don´t see why this shouldn´t be the lead-in to objectivism. What arguments are there for your position? I thinkt that because Obectivism is robust it would stand any lead-in.

I also want religious but unradical Muslims to abandon Islam and become Objectivists. I also focuses more attention to Westernminded atheist Muslims in the new version of the site.

Strategically, my suggestion is to abandon the actual Islamist audience, and instead focus on the ordinary perfunctorily-Muslim citizen of Muslim nations, the ones with the same kind of low-level lip service interest in the predominant religion that you find in England, Norway, Germany and France. You want to persuade them of something, something that they already know. I would thus focus on the fact that many of them already understand -- the virtue of capitalism, and (many of them having lived under dictaorships in Iran, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Pakistan etc.) the virtue of freedom.

I never ment to adress Islamists (ie radicals) but the groups you mentioned. I guess the november 25 version of the website is more adressing to the latter group.

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[*] America Alone by Mark Steyn. This has also received excellent reviews on Amazon.com.

You are probably familiar with several of these already. I hope that this helps!

Thanks! It might very well help me.

I was aware of the book by Stayn and in the dec 25 version of my webpage I am refering to that book.

I wasn´t aware of some of the other books. The one about Greece and the one by the same author about Islam might be filling some gaps in knowledge for me if I study them.

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Exactly. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, Oxygen, middle-eastern cultures have had strong trading traditions for thousands of years, and this is an immense positive. If you're going to do something, then build on that positive and suffocate the negative with it.

I take this quote to stand for your reply as a whole. You are right and your (and some of the other) reply triggered me to change my view in favor of your points, a change that I value. One of some changes in the dec 25 version of my webpage in line with this is that I restated the vision to the following:

The vision: "Non-Muslims and Muslims all over the world should be converted to Objectivism (that is persuaded to hold the ideas of Ayn Rand.) Those who are unconsciously already holding views of Ayn Rand should be made aware of the word of Ayn Rand and be strengthened in their positive valuation of her ideas. The world would be a better place to live in".

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The problem with your approach, however, is that the Muslims are well aware of reason, but they explicitly reject it.

There are many Muslims that are born to be Muslim but in fact are atheists. As I responded to another reply these fanatics is not worth trying to "convert". But all other has the potential to be "converted" I think.

An alternative or complement to invasions is apply the strategy of spreading Atlas Shrugged to non-fanatic Muslims (an Arabic translation is possibly an requirement.)

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I want to convince non-Muslims that Objectivism is opposed to Islamism. I don´t see why this shouldn´t be the lead-in to objectivism. What arguments are there for your position? I thinkt that because Obectivism is robust it would stand any lead-in.

I also want religious but unradical Muslims to abandon Islam and become Objectivists. I also focuses more attention to Westernminded atheist Muslims in the new version of the site.

Correction:

My target audience with my webpage is fellow European Objectivists (I am European). I think they and I should get out there and spread Objectivism. An Objectivist Europe is far more attractive than a Europe with Sharia and a 5 % of a huge Muslim population that supports religious violence and looks at non-Muslims as Infidels.

Therefore I will perhaps not attach tags to the page so that it is relatively easy to find for Googlers. Instead I visit Objectivist websites and email Objectivists and refer to the web-page.

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