Rory slouched

[Tenure]

I may be coming to America, to study. Fed up with all the Universities I've looked at, and not all that impressed by the University I was accepted into for this October, I've decided that I should open up my focus a bit more. That is, from these sceptered isles to the great expanse of the United States. The US College system provides something that few Universities offer here: a more holistic approach to education. One is encouraged to take classes somewhat outside of ones immediate focus, and to decide on the actual major in the second year. As far as I'm aware, if I wanted to do that here in the UK, I could go to Scotland. However, the Scottish system takes the same approach our Secondary School system takes: over-burden the student with different classes in the first year, and then let them strip down in the second year.

At the moment, I'm scrawling through the various reputable Colleges. At the moment, my interest is piqued by Pomona College, in LA, St Johns, in Santa Fe and the University of Texas (where the illustrious Tara Smith resides, I hear). These all seem like good choices (and St Johns absolutely astounds me), but the thing is, unlike here, where I have all sorts of contacts and ways of knowing where to go - as well as, obviously, the chance to actually visit them - I am all cut off from America.

You guys are my lifeline to America here.

What do you know about the US? Why should I study there? Where are the best places to study, for me?

To clarify, I am most likely going to study philosophy, but I am still unsure on how sold I am on Philosophy as a subject. I've explained a few times before that I feel like maybe my spark for philosophy has been lost. I was searching for answers for so long, until I found Objectivism, and I feel like all the important stuff has been done, and that far more capable people will do the rest of what there is to do. With this in mind, a place like St Johns might not be for me.

So I turn my head towards my other love: writing. However, I'm no great writer. I don't write stories or poetry, and I always produce something horrid when I try. Maybe I'm just too lazy to practice. So it seems my non-fiction writing, which I do far more of, is where my talent lies. So journalism might be the thing for me.

The thing is, I love learning. I like discovering connections between things and seeing the big web that holds the disparate facts together. I like figuring stuff out (which is why I like Philosophy) and learning about... all the cool stuff behind the classic books, hisotric events and great people.

Perhaps higher education just isn't for me, but I'm still at a loss as to what I'm actually talented at, and what I should study, should I chose to -- which is why the more diverse American system appeals to me. I'm certainly not one of these practical people who could go become the manager of some business in a few years, or who has some skill that they could lose themselves in for the next sixty odd years of their life.

[DarkWaters]

What do you know about the US? Why should I study there? Where are the best places to study, for me?

If you are going to come to the United States to obtain an undergraduate degree, I recommend that you shoot for some of the most competitive schools. I barely know anything about education in the United Kingdom, but if you are going to cross the Atlantic, you should make it worth your while. For example, attending Duke University, the University of Chicago or the University of Pittsburgh.

Since you seem to be interested in the humanities, but you are not yet committed to a major, perhaps you would want to consider related disciplines such as law, international relations, political science or economics? I think you can make decent money with a degree in any of those, and still actively work with ideas.

Here is a list of the top liberal arts colleges in the United States. Here is a list of the top universities.

Anyway, I hope that this helps.

[DavidOdden]

What do you know about the US? Why should I study there? Where are the best places to study, for me?

You've kinda identified "why not England". I think it's bizarre to enter a university already knowing "I'm majoring in Philosophy / History or whatever", and then do pretty much that and only that. It serves people well if they have a very clear understanding of their lives, but then when exactly do you read Homer, or learn about how to conduct a psychology experiment, or learn about Cantor. I think it's fine for job training, but not for general education. The second problem is the anal-retentiveness problem. I don't know what's worse, a class where half the students obsess about how they are going to get exactly 5,000 words to write about the topic, or the fact that there are actually faculty who would count every frickin word and take major points off for going over or under by 4 words. The assessment criteria are part and parcel of the problem. I dumped my copy, but the difference at Durham between 80% and 85% was something like "Show solid but not noteworthy understanding of the subject matter, and displays considerable but not great creativity". This just encourages people to say "Yes, I feel that you did understand the material, and after due reflection, I do believe that you showed (shew?) solid understanding, but I'm afraid that I can't quite say that you showed noteworthy understanding".

I have no idea if UC Dublin is any better.

If you are totally certain that you want to do philosophy, that would dictate a course of action. Since I don't think you are (I mean, you say you're not), I think you ought to give thought to places in terms of "what else could I do". If College X is great in philosophy and lousy in everything else, X is not a good choice if in fact you're not committed to philosophy. Another question you should answer to yourself is, how much teaching do you need? If you can suck the knowledge out of inanimate objects on your own, you are less dependent on "really great teachers", and can better exploit "really great resources". My undergrad institution had vast numbers of strange classes that one could take (my god, they even taught conversational Mongolian), and that turned out to be really important for me. Small universities have advantages in terms of attention to the student, but tend to pay for it by not having a wealth of areas that you can study in. De gustibus, as they say.

I used the NRC database for philosophy and weighted it in favor of what I think might correlate with better undergraduate optons. From top to bottom, your best choices are Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Cornell, Stanford, Brown, Chicago, Berkeley, Columbis, Notre Dame, Penn, UCLA, Michigan, Nothwestern, Pitt, Rice, Washington U (StL), Duke and Johns Hopins. DIY here?.

Here's a suggestion: pick the classes that you'd like to take in your entire education. Then see how many of them you can in principle take at each of your top choices. (Example: MIT does not teach Mongolian, Western Washington U does).

[LaszloWalrus]

If you're interested in eventually going to graduate school in philosophy, then, all else equal, go to the best regarded undergraduate program you can get into, NOT the school with highest regarded philosophy department (I offer this advice based on my conversations with various philosophy academics, Objectivist and otherwise).

There are quite a number of highly-regarded US universities: the Ivy League (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, Penn, Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth), and Stanford, Duke, Chicago, MIT, and Caltech. You might also look at liberal arts colleges, like Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore.

[Tenure]

DarkWaters: I'm not trying for the most competitive schools for the same reason that I never applied for Oxford, Cambridge, Leeds, Durham or St Andrews. As reputable and competitive as they might be, the courses they offer just don't offer what I want or what I'm looking for in an education.

Dr Odden: There is no innate knowledge; you should know it's impossible to extract knowledge from inanimate objects. I think I need a fair amount of teaching, to allow me to access the more difficult materials, but that I'd prefer it in the form of a crutch, that I can lean back on, before bouncing back with my own judgement. This is why St John's really excites me.

I'm aware of the 'Ivy League', and I will look into what they have to offer, but I've got to say that right now, St John's is looking like the Madonna right now, compared to those cheap husseys. I think I want to be in her bountiful bosom, suckling at her intellectual nourishment.

(Creepy much?)

Walrus: I agree. The best philosophy department may not be the best place for me to actually study, especially if it isn't philosophy itself I want to study. This is why Anthropology has been nagging at me - not because as a subject in itself it's something I'd want to do, but I love that idea of an inter-disciplinary aggregate of concepts and ideas that gives one a sharper picture of everything. If I could have that kind of clarity that comes from understanding and reasoning how things are related in real life, I could accomplish anything I wanted in life.

[Tenure]

Erk, I forogot say: I'm really confused about student loans. Is your loans system the same as here, where you are offered money which covers tuition and basic living allowances and then you just need to pay it back once you earn a certain amount of money, with the rate of interest equal to the rate of inflation, so that the increase in how much you pay is only justified by the fact that 1 unit of money you previously owed is now equal to 1.2 units of money, but the actual value you pay stays the same overall?

[softwareNerd]

... As reputable and competitive as they might be, the courses they offer just don't offer what I want or what I'm looking for in an education.

I'm curious about this. Could you elaborate? How would you describe the difference in the courses offered by these popular schools compared to the courses you're interested in?

[Tenure]

What 99% of Universities teach is straight subject material. That is, you do a module on Plato, maybe looking at his ethics, or at 'Republic'. You examine the text, learn what he was saying and then leave it at that. Perhaps I have a skewed perception of Uni, but from everything I've been told and from what I've read in prospectuses, the education stops there. Where is the encouragement and the aid in looking at those philosphical ideas in the context of history? Where is the argument and debate over the merits and deficits in those ideas? Why is what's said there relevent to me?

The top schools might be fantastic at telling you the facts, but I can read the facts anywhere. It's intellectual growth and stimulation I'm looking for; tools to help me survive in life, in whatever (relatively) intellectual endeavor I take on.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

Erk, I forogot say: I'm really confused about student loans. Is your loans system the same as here, where you are offered money which covers tuition and basic living allowances and then you just need to pay it back once you earn a certain amount of money, with the rate of interest equal to the rate of inflation, so that the increase in how much you pay is only justified by the fact that 1 unit of money you previously owed is now equal to 1.2 units of money, but the actual value you pay stays the same overall?

I'm pretty sure the interest rate on studen loans is higher than inflation but lower than a regular rate. I know many people who have defaulted on their loans because once graduated they found out their degree wasn't much in demand in the job market though. Be very wary of the temptation to go to an expensive place figuring you can pay it back later. It's very painful even for doctors and engineeers.

[DavidOdden]

Erk, I forogot say: I'm really confused about student loans.

What you would like to know is that there are government-subsidized loans, and ordinary loans. Ordinary loans amount to just borrowing money which will be a quite expensive proposition. Government-subsidized loans get government coverage of some portion of the interest, but you probably would encounter ineligibility problems, unless it turns out that you've been hiding stuff from us and you're actually a US citizen. Private lenders will require in situ collateral (something like a pile of cash of a mound of gold, where they don't have to go to The Hague to confiscate the collateral in case of default). You might dig hard and find something, but it is unlikely that you can get a private loan in the US, because of prior employment, collateral and citizenship requirements. That's the cold, hard. Also, to get past the INS filter, you'd have to show that you either have an existing offer of financial aid (scholarship or whatever) or can bring sufficient finds (the 'rents are loaded; you invented the internet and are wealthy from the royalties). I'd suggest first finding out if you can get a UK loan that travels to the US, without holding your breath.

[Mammon]

Perhaps higher education just isn't for me, but I'm still at a loss as to what I'm actually talented at, and what I should study, should I chose to -- which is why the more diverse American system appeals to me. I'm certainly not one of these practical people who could go become the manager of some business in a few years, or who has some skill that they could lose themselves in for the next sixty odd years of their life.

Higer education is always a good thing, if not for the things you learn in the classroom, but for the things you learn outside of it as well.

[DavidOdden]

Higer education is always a good thing, if not for the things you learn in the classroom, but for the things you learn outside of it as well.

That's just wrong, and a major root of the problem. Many college students are not suited for higher education, and that is fine. It is a major mistake to think that higher-ed is an automatic, universal good, and leads to clogged classrooms.

[Tenure]

So, basically, there's no way I'm ever going to be able to afford studying in the US, without the very unlikely chance I get a scholarship.

Well, I feel like shit.

[JMeganSnow]

Actually, a lot of private institutions (Chase, for instance, I think) are now offering student loans. Basically, you don't have to pay anything until you graduate, but you have to start making monthly payments when that diploma hits your hand. SOMETIMES you can get loan forgiveness, but I'm not real clear on how that works.

[DavidOdden]

Well, I feel like shit.

Sorry about that. And I urge you to keep digging: I'm not a loan officer. I just think it will be more productive for you to look at getting money from a UK bank, the basic reasoning being that a US bank has limited ability to go after a UK citizen if he defaults, which is why they require the borrower or co-signer to be a US citizen or permanent resident.

[Mammon]

That's just wrong, and a major root of the problem. Many college students are not suited for higher education, and that is fine. It is a major mistake to think that higher-ed is an automatic, universal good, and leads to clogged classrooms.

If they aren't suited, let them figure that out when they get there. It's better to try then not. And gaining more education to better yourself is always a good thing.

Actually, a lot of private institutions (Chase, for instance, I think) are now offering student loans. Basically, you don't have to pay anything until you graduate, but you have to start making monthly payments when that diploma hits your hand. SOMETIMES you can get loan forgiveness, but I'm not real clear on how that works.

I'm paying my way through college with loans from Chase. You don't have to pay the loans back until 6 months after you graduate.

[Thomas M. Miovas Jr.]

Not to burst your bubble further, but my dual major B. A. degree in physics and philosophy never landed me a well-paying job. If you are going into either, then you'd have to get at least a Masters and most probably a Ph. D. before anyone would want to hire you based on your degrees, and then maybe only if you teach. Undergraduate degrees these days are almost a dime a dozen -- though, of course, the school charges you a lot more than that -- but of my friends and co-graduates, the ones who made a financial success were either engineers or computer programmers (where a B. S. can land you a good job) or most definitely went on to graduate school and got a practical degree -- where they teach you how things are being done on the job so to speak. If you don't have that, then businessmen just don't want you, or that is my experience. So, if you go for that philosophy degree -- and at the right school it can be a very good education, if coupled with a core curriculum that studies history and arts (liberal arts in general) -- you may not be able to put away your midnight oil upon graduation.

I don't regret the education I got, but there are definitely times when I regret that our economy looks for and rewards people with very specific skills; and I think that is an aspect of rampant pragmatism. And they don't consider thinking in the abstract as being a skill. Basically, with a liberal arts degree, they'll look at you and and say something like, "Well, you did very well at XYZ University, but what on earth can you do?" And I suppose that so long as they can find someone with very narrow skills that can do the job with little training right out of school, maybe I can't blame them; though sometimes I definitely do.

So, if you do philosophy, find a school that doesn't have a reputation of going for the most bizarre philosophy imaginable; you'll want a school that has a focus on the classics -- Plato and Aristotle and the Ancient Greeks and some of the Renaissance philosophers. At least teachers who teach those philosophers are sane. But you will also want to think about what you want to do with your life after graduation -- what type of career you will want and in what field, and find a school that teaches things along those lines.

Economically speaking, I would have done better staying at the job I had before I decided to improve myself by going to college; but in retrospect, I don't know that I would have changed anything about going to the college I did go to, only in hindsight, I probably should have gone to graduate school or gone to a technical school in order to make money. Too many employers seem to consider a liberal arts degree as advanced high school, and not something that is practical. Of course, I disagree with them on that.

Unless you can run your own business and do well at it or make a living as a writer -- both of which I am still trying to figure out -- go to a school that teaches you things you can be hired to do. Maybe do that after you graduate, since you seem sincere about getting that degree. In other words, your paying for it, so get the education you want; but you also need to get the education that employers want. And I don't mean that in any kind of second-handers manner. Don't go to a school just to get a high paying job, if it is something in a field that you don't want to do.

And many of my potential employers thought I was over-qualified to work for them; and even though they knew I could do the job superlatively, decided not to hire me. They are looking for a perfect match these days, so find a school that has a good job placement program, because you are probably going to need a salesman to get you a job with a liberal arts degree.

Sorry, just some cold hard facts I found out about the hard way.

*** Mod's note: The extended discussion on businesses and what they value, etc. has been split into

a separate topic (click) - sN ***

Edited January 5, 2008 by softwareNerd
Added "topic split" annotation

[intellectualammo]

I'm paying my way through college with loans from Chase. You don't have to pay the loans back until 6 months after you graduate.

Yes, after you graduate you pay it back, or when you dropout, or "unofficially" withdraw from college like I did: I just stopped going. Now that's what I call withdrawing . Anyways, my loan was through Sallie Mae at the time, 6 months later the bills came in.

[Cogito]

Higer education is always a good thing, if not for the things you learn in the classroom, but for the things you learn outside of it as well.

Ah! Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!

Now that I've gotten the incoherent ranting out of the way... The purpose of higher education is to learn at a higher level. Not to party, not to "experiment", not to meet cool people in your dorm, not to waste four years of your life doing something you don't love so you can get a good job. Sure, some of that can happen anyway, but only as an aside. It bothers me to no end that I will have to deal with people who don't even want to learn when the only reason I'm at college is to learn as much as I can. Sadly, there are more of the type of person that don't belong at college than there are of those that do, and they skew the entire system, starting with high school.

[DavidOdden]

If they aren't suited, let them figure that out when they get there.

No, that's a huge waste of time and a serious disservice to students who are willing and able to actually learn. The system is cloged with morons who have no interest in learning, and are only there to get a certificate of some sort. I have no objection to people learning throughout their lives: I do object to equating learning and being in an institution of higher education, which is not a universal and automatic good.

[athena glaukopis]

St. Johns is an amazing school, with much to offer. If I could do it over again, I would go there in a heartbeat!!!!!!!!!!

[Tenure]

I agree with Kendall: don't be so callous in regards to companies. They don't have the time and money to spend on people who might potentially have good ideas. If they have good ideas, they're going to get recognised one way or another (be that by impressing the interviewer with their perception and brightness, or by hording those skills for themselves and starting their own business [which is what I would do if I had some great talent or business idea]). It's much easier to hire people who you know stand a chance of being good at what you want them to do.

However, that is not to say that intelligent thinking goes unnoticed. It's just that that thinking has to have some focus. I seem to recall a thread on here which discussed how businesses should hire an in-house philosopher. I entertained the idea, but the more I read about what the role of this person should be, the more I thought these should be the qualities of the person in management anyway. Felt too much to me like the idea of the 'philosopher king' who deserves some mystical form of respect for his ability to think, but not think about anything specifically.

Anyway, an update on my progress:

It would cost me roughly £120,000 by the end of my studies (that's taking into account rising costs with each year, living expenses and, of course, the big T-u-i-t-i-o-n). I figure I could cut maybe £30,000 of that if I were lucky enough to get a scholarship. I don't know what is considered to be needy enough to warrant a loan, but I live in a very average-to-low neighbourhood, with very average-incombed parents, who can only just afford the kind of comfort we have. Basically, the chained middle-class who can't move up, because any progress or potential investment is eaten by taxes. I don't know if scholarship-givers consider them to be worthy enough to grant me a scholarship.

So then I'm left with £90,000. Now, that's three times the amount of debt my brother and sister left Uni with (at £30,000 each). I could work between now and August 2009, busting my balls, and probably pull together £25,000 (before taxes, living at home). That brings down the amount to £65,000. I'm just over half the debt limit now. I'd still need to eliminate £25,000 until I could safely leave for Uni, knowing I'm only leaving with as much as I would normally (which is only just manageable for most English graduates anyway, myself included).

And this is, of course, all on the basis that I had some sort of great loan scheme, or if I managed to somehow get my Student loan from the government. I just find it ridiculous that, as a UK citizen, I'm denied a loan on the basis that I'm studying abroad. I mean, what is the purpose of the loan scheme? To allow British students to study. Who finances and subsidies it? The British government. Where is my income going to start going when I get home? The British government. The idea of the loans scheme is to have more skill workers, leading to more employment which equates into more tax payers.

I told my mum about this and... well... she's the kind of person who enjoys being cynical. She offers no sympathy, no friendliness, just cynicism about how "this is the first I've heard of it", "there's no such thing as the perfect course for you" and how "you should just settle for second best then". It's that kind of attitude that explains a lot about why she acts the way she does. If I ever end up like that, you have my permission to kill me.

I'm really kind of depressed right now. I feel like I've been given a glimpse of a perfect world, only to be told that it'll never be mine. I mean, everything I want to achieve in life rests on me starting with strong foundations, and it's an education like that I need to build those foundations. Yet there's no way I'll gain it now, I know. It's going to be like living, knowing there is the perfect woman for you, yet it is impossible for you to ever be with her -- you live the rest of your days comparing every woman to her, regretting the mundanity of all woman compared to her ideal form.

[~Sophia~]

What about Founders College?

1 and 2nd year

course catalog

plus

Psychology classes

(program developed by an Objectivist)

It sure looks like a place where you will get great liberal education.

[athena glaukopis]

What about Founders College?

1 and 2nd year

course catalog

plus

Psychology classes

(program developed by an Objectivist)

It sure looks like a place where you will get great liberal education.

Yah, to be honest, Founders College is probably the best school out there.

[softwareNerd]

Anyway, an update on my progress:...

You will probably work some amount (20 hours?) when you're in university. Have you factored that in?

... I feel like I've been given a glimpse of a perfect world, only to be told that it'll never be mine.

Even if you decide that the U.S. is not feasible as a place to do your under-graduation, that still keeps the option open for higher studies.